Remember Vanguard?

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Remember Vanguard?

Postby Arlos » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:11 pm

One of the FOH members that got hired to Sigil as a developer wrote this today in response to Vanguard winning Gamespy's "Biggest disappointment" award.

You know, as much as I hate having to carefully craft (AKA, lie through my teeth) an answer to "What was Vanguard's biggest failing?" in job interviews, I realized after reading that rather disappointing article how proud I am of it.

Know why? Because I can honestly say with 100% validity: I'm a big reason for Vanguard's failure. Not Brad Mcquaid - not Microsoft. Me. And Guess what? I'm really kind of proud of it.

Brad Mcquaid didn't do shit. (News Flash?) He's had an opiate addiction for years now, which only got progressively worse as the project failed. His cumulative face time with sigil designers in the most crucial final years of development? Approx: 15 minutes. And some of the time was spent begging for legitimately acquired narcotics (Or in times of desperation, jacking them from people's desk).

The lead designers didn't do shit. (News Flash?) Sigil fired all of their golden-boy, EQ-Genius designers (Save One) who this board once speculated simply "left." It wasn't even secretive. It all happened on the same day.

Sony didn't do shit. The extent of sony's help was 2 designers who ended up writing some diplomacy quests in Tanvu and some adventuring quests in Tursh. I think there was an artist that came in 2 days a week or something for about a month also. Thom Terrasas (sp?) is the only Sony employee that ever directly affected the direction of that game.

The only part Sony really played in Vanguard's destiny was to let its life unnaturally and undeserving-ly continue. And apparently, it's simply because they were naive enough to think this project was worth their cash. Hah! Even the staff at sigil was left wondering why the hell Sony would buy us. Dozens of lunch hours were spent trying to figure out why.

"What profitable web of intrigue and mystery was big'ol Smed spinning with this crazy move(????)," we'd often cry

It was pretty shocking (and just lame) to hear John Smedly actually get angry and complain to people after the layoff's that he, "didn't know what he was buying." He even expressed anger at Jeff and Brad for bamboozlin' him. Poor guy. Maybe next time tough-guy Smed decides to spend several million dollars on something he'll expend some brain power figuring out what it is first.

Dave Gilbertson DID do some shit. (News Flash!) But this guy? Man, so much stuff I could say about this guy. He was truly unbelievable. Even when you thought his insanely unprofessional antics couldn't get any more outrageous, he'd go and do something like tell everyone they're getting a raise (to keep crunching) and then one by one call people into his office who WERE actually getting raises (but would never actually get them), how much they were going to get (VERY, soon). Unfortunately he would move through desk rows one by one and simply skip over the unlucky ones. It took a whole 5 minutes for the office to see through his brilliantly laid out scheme. He used the same plan for the lay-offs too. Classy huh?

He's literally never played a video game in his life, yet when Brad died off and Dave inherited the position of Vanguard Jesus, he decided he must be the final call on every design decision. I guess if you ride dirt bikes with a gamer god, his genius just wears off on you.

Fortunately, sometime this would result in getting played like a fiddle by whoever happened to be lovingly pulling the strings that day. But more often than not, this just meant people had to go around him to get something in, only without the help of (Place whatever department here) that was necessary for a game feature to actually turn out right. Imagine for a second people at Sigil actually knew how to do something right? (Believe it or not, we did on occasion) this guy would become the bottleneck to prevent that from happening.

If there was a ceremony for the Gamespy award, Dave would be accepting. For the sake of all our future video game consumer habits, let's hope this guy goes back to the only thing he's qualified to do, whatever that might be.

Anyway, enough of my blabbering. The most shocking reality that I don't think anyone really ever understood is that Vanguard was made (exclusively the design staff, I should say) COMPLETELY by amateurs. People who had been hired less than a week with 0 prior experience were tasked with designing entire newbie areas that shipped. People who had never produced a game in their life were asked to fix a 40 million dollar fuck up. People with no experience were asked to fix the item, diplomacy, ability, content, quest and pretty much every system in the game.

The game that exists now was designed in a single year by people with 0 experience. If that sounds too vague think of it like this: about 1 year from release we had 0 quests in the DB because the tool didn't exist yet. When I decided to split the team there was over 30,000 quest object entries. Yeah, explains a lot doesn't it?

What a huge let down indeed.

Oddly enough, the whole situation was probably a bigger let down to the designers than the consumers. I accepted a position thinking I was going to work with a bunch of experts - Masters of their craft - and really learn the ropes of game design. Instead, my fellow design associates and I were unwittingly tasked with trying to fix a failed video game that had literally been canceled twice before any of us were even hired. So in retrospect, despite everything, I guess I'm still pretty proud of vanguard. Every team member should be proud in spite of a truly pitiful and pathetic waste.


Seems MS knew WTF it was doing when they were going to pull the plug originally, eh?

-Arlos
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Martrae » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:00 pm

Explains quite a bit, doesn't it.

For a game made by a bunch of people who hadn't a clue how to go about things....it's actually pretty good. Just imagine what it could have been if people with knowledge had been there to guide it.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tikker » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:13 pm

i was just kinda thinking that

it really wasn't all that bad

that guys post really sounds an awful like internet tuffguy posting out of sour grapes
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Martrae » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:27 pm

I think that comment about how his job interviews are going probably explains all his sourness.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Menlaan » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:31 am

I was just wondering what the current state of VG was. Is Sony still working on fixing it?
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Martrae » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:35 am

They're still pushing out fixes, patches and updates for it. Supposedly a free trial dealio like they do for their other games will be out next month.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Menlaan » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:43 am

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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Reynaldo » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:06 pm

Even if they get the whole thing fixed, it still wouldn't be worth playing. The world is way too big for the server populations. You'd never find reliable groups and only a select few classes can solo worth a darn past level 12 or so.

It could probably be a very fun game if you had 3 or 4 friends you were moving to it with and all play with a steady group Neverwinder Nights - style, but that's just not going to happen.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:07 pm

It was great while I played but broken content and performance issues put a damper on things. I was hoping it would get fixed so I could try it again.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Arlos » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:38 pm

Spoke to someone else in the industry about that post, and one factor that no one is considering is that by making that post, that guy has completely shitcanned his entire career. That's exactly the kind of dirty laundry airing that is never supposed to happen in public, no matter how frustrated he got, and as a result, odds are no company will touch him with a 10 foot pole.

No doubt it IS an interesting read, but I highly doubt that the guy thought through all the fallout and ramifications there would be for making it.

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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Zanchief » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:09 pm

Arlos wrote:odds are no company will touch him with a 10 foot pole.


Yep, that's the first thing that came to mind when I read it. He won't have to worry about those annoying questions during his interviews anymore.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Martrae » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:15 pm

If he was getting questions like that he likely wasn't getting hired anyway.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Mon May 14, 2012 8:19 pm

Fired this up again tonight. Wow. 5 or however many years later, this game runs well, looks great and is a lot of fun. Ahead of it's time? Anyhow... yeah, Vanguard.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Lyion » Tue May 15, 2012 5:58 am

Did Vanguard go free to play? I played it in beta and it was a trainwreck of the magnitude of Shadowbane. I wouldn't mind checking it out again if there were no costs.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Tue May 15, 2012 7:52 am

Think it's free to play, yeah.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Lyion » Tue May 15, 2012 8:01 am

I saw this on wikipedia:

On March 21, 2012, SOE announced that Vanguard would become free to play in summer 2012


I'll download it this week and see if I can get in.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Tue May 15, 2012 8:13 am

Maybe only the tutorial thing is free right now.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Sat May 26, 2012 1:12 pm

So god damn well done. Well worth checking out. This is indeed what EQ2 should have been.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Kaemon » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:33 am

Adivina wrote:We are the most bipolar acting community, bunch of manics with the mood swings on here.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Lyion » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:03 pm

No fuckin' way... hahaha....

They released the F2P vanguard model. Looks like it's just like the EQ/EQ2 Freemium setup. That's a shame. I'll noodle around to check things out, but probably not interested in paying 15/mo for this game.

http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/newsA ... nt&id=1423
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Zanchief » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:22 pm

I remember playing in the open beta and it was really awful. F2P sounds about right though. I'll give it a shot.

I read the restrictions. I would imagine the 1 plat limit is going to be the kick in the pants limitation that won't let you do much?
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Lyion » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:04 pm

I'm more curious of how gimped one would be due to the common vs. rare equipment limitation?

SOE are idiots. The freemium model really turns off more players than it attracts. Instead of trying to get a huge community and have some smart costs added, they are still trying to nickel and dime people. It'd make sense if their games were worth it, but they really just aren't.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby brinstar » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:06 am

yeah i've been playing this F2P game i found on Steam called Blacklight:Retribution that is basically futuristic counterstrike with gundams

quality-wise it's a wonderful game - the graphics are smart and unified, the customization of weapons and equipment is extremely deep, and the action is tight

but getting ganked 20 times in a 7-minute CTF match by players who spend actual dollars on pay-only upgrades? it's not making me want to spend $, it's making me want to quit ;\
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Tossica » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:01 am

Vanguard is the most well thought out and engrossing fantasy MMO out there, imo. Definitely give it a shot.
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Re: Remember Vanguard?

Postby Arlos » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:30 pm

DDO actually did F2P pretty well. There was no loot restriction of any kind, and basically EVERYTHING that was available to a monthly subscriber was also available via micropayments. The two main things that were restricted were a bunch of the dungeon/mini-raid/raid content (though there was always SOME available at any given level range), and the more unusual class/racial setups. (Drow, monks, etc.) Also, if you played regularly and leveled a class up, you earned the same currency that bought you access to closed content just by playing, and could buy a few of the upgrades without having to spend $$$.

DDO had its own issues, including a near-complete lack of soloability, but it definitely did the F2P/Micropayments model VERY well.

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