What was the deciding factor?

[Berton]

I got my numbers directly off of CNNs website btw.

For the record I am NOT a religious person, I have not attended a church service in over 2 years. I voted Bush based on my personal values. There was no one single deciding factor for me, it was a lot of things. Trust me when I say abortion, gay rights, and God had nothing to do with it. I personally lean pro-choice. I do not agree with gay marriage but I do believe we should take a look at the rights of partners in civil unions.

I do believe that President Bush covered the religion issue quite well today in his press conference. I agree with you 100% on the religion issue, Arlos. The church has no business dictating policy, religious people do however have the right to vote and base it on whatever they wish. Last time I checked there was no law against basing your vote on religion, abortion, Bush-hating, or bass fishing.

[Diekan]

Arlos actually makes some very good points. Have any of you actually taken the time to READ through the Patriot Act II? Here’s a few little tid bits to quench your curiosity:

• Americans could have their citizenship revoked, if found to have contributed "material support" to organizations deemed by the government, even retroactively, to be "terrorist." As Hentoff wrote in the Feb. 28 Village Voice: "Until now, in our law, an American could only lose his or her citizenship by declaring a clear intent to abandon it. But -- and read this carefully from the new bill -- 'the intent to relinquish nationality need not be manifested in words, but can be inferred from conduct.'" (Italics Hentoff's.)

• Legal permanent residents (like, say, my French wife), could be deported instantaneously, without a criminal charge or even evidence, if the Attorney General considers them a threat to national security. If they commit minor, non-terrorist offenses, they can still be booted out, without so much as a day in court, because the law would exempt habeas corpus review in some cases. As the American Civil Liberties Union stated in its long brief against the DSEA, "Congress has not exempted any person from habeas corpus -- a protection guaranteed by the Constitution -- since the Civil War”

• The government would be instructed to build a mammoth database of citizen DNA information, aimed at "detecting, investigating, prosecuting, preventing or responding to terrorist activities." Samples could be collected without a court order; one need only be suspected of wrongdoing by a law enforcement officer. Those refusing the cheek-swab could be fined $200,000 and jailed for a year. "Because no federal genetic privacy law regulates DNA databases, privacy advocates fear that the data they contain could be misused," Wired News reported March 31. "People with 'flawed' DNA have already suffered genetic discrimination at the hands of employers, insurance companies and the government."

• Authorities could wiretap anybody for 15 days, and snoop on anyone's Internet usage (including chat and email), all without obtaining a warrant.

• Businesses that rat on their customers to the Feds -- even if the information violates privacy agreements, or is, in fact, dead wrong -- would be granted immunity. "Such immunity," the ACLU contended, "could provide an incentive for neighbor to spy on neighbor and pose problems similar to those inherent in Attorney General Ashcroft's Operation TIPS."

• American citizens could be subject to secret surveillance by their own government on behalf of foreign countries, including dictatorships.

• Police officers carrying out illegal searches would also be granted legal immunity if they were just carrying out orders.

Now, according to many of you, “There’s nothing we can really do about terrorism” yet, you seem to have no problem with your rights being trampled if it can prevent something you just said we can’t stop in the first place.

The days of true anonymity are quickly becoming extinct. Grocery stores now know (if you use a coupon card) exactly what you buy and you buy it. Think you can just put down a false name on the discount card and not be tracked? Sure, as long as you don’t use your credit / debit card to pay for the goods, because then they simply change the fake name to match your real name and address.

Do we really NEED the patriot act? Some of you think so, and you’re very foolish. Granted, I will concede that there are certain concessions we should make to better protect ourselves as a country, however, the steps we are and have been taking are not in the best interest of future our individual freedom.

There are plans in the works to require a national ID card, without which you may not be able to find employment.
The very identity of this country lies in the individual freedoms that we enjoy, and once we have begun to surrender these freedoms we have taken steps to moving from a true Democracy to a totalitarian government. Our government has already passed laws requiring you to wear a seat belt, guised in the excuse that medical costs created by *unprotected motorists* are a great burdon to the public. But, lets be real for a moment – the real reason for the seat belt law is the government telling us that they don’t think we are intelligent enough, nor responsible enough to make the right choices, thus they must take steps to do it for us. So, what’s next? The government telling us we can only eat one Big Mac per week because the fat content is high enough to seriously contribute to heart disease? Laugh and make your jokes, but some you need to wake the fuck up and take a good hard look at your personal freedoms, more so the erosions of your personal freedoms.

How many of you know about the MARC chip that IS currently being developed? For those that do, have you any idea of how dangerous such a concept is?

Well, I’ve gotten off on a tangent, but my original point is quite simple. The Patriot Acts (I/II) are going to do NOTHING to prevent terrorism. They will, however, grant the government even more control over your personal and private life.

But, hey you voted Bush back in office – so when the police kick your door in and haul your ass off to jail because your neighbor dropped a dime claiming that you’re a terrorist you’ll have no one to blame but your own ignorant selves.

As far as Arlos’ history “lesson,” he’s right. There are serious parallels between where we are and where we’re heading to the governments of a 1930’s Europe.

But, hey why would you care… Everquest II is coming out!!!!

[Langston]

Have any of you actually taken the time to READ through the Patriot Act II? Here’s a few little tid bits to quench your curiosity:

• Americans could have their citizenship revoked, if found to have contributed "material support" to organizations deemed by the government, even retroactively, to be "terrorist." As Hentoff wrote in the Feb. 28 Village Voice: "Until now, in our law, an American could only lose his or her citizenship by declaring a clear intent to abandon it. But -- and read this carefully from the new bill -- 'the intent to relinquish nationality need not be manifested in words, but can be inferred from conduct.'" (Italics Hentoff's.)

• Legal permanent residents (like, say, my French wife), could be deported instantaneously, without a criminal charge or even evidence, if the Attorney General considers them a threat to national security. If they commit minor, non-terrorist offenses, they can still be booted out, without so much as a day in court, because the law would exempt habeas corpus review in some cases. As the American Civil Liberties Union stated in its long brief against the DSEA, "Congress has not exempted any person from habeas corpus -- a protection guaranteed by the Constitution -- since the Civil War”

• The government would be instructed to build a mammoth database of citizen DNA information, aimed at "detecting, investigating, prosecuting, preventing or responding to terrorist activities." Samples could be collected without a court order; one need only be suspected of wrongdoing by a law enforcement officer. Those refusing the cheek-swab could be fined $200,000 and jailed for a year. "Because no federal genetic privacy law regulates DNA databases, privacy advocates fear that the data they contain could be misused," Wired News reported March 31. "People with 'flawed' DNA have already suffered genetic discrimination at the hands of employers, insurance companies and the government."

• Authorities could wiretap anybody for 15 days, and snoop on anyone's Internet usage (including chat and email), all without obtaining a warrant.

• Businesses that rat on their customers to the Feds -- even if the information violates privacy agreements, or is, in fact, dead wrong -- would be granted immunity. "Such immunity," the ACLU contended, "could provide an incentive for neighbor to spy on neighbor and pose problems similar to those inherent in Attorney General Ashcroft's Operation TIPS."

• American citizens could be subject to secret surveillance by their own government on behalf of foreign countries, including dictatorships.

• Police officers carrying out illegal searches would also be granted legal immunity if they were just carrying out orders.

I would ask you the same question... have you taken the time to READ the Patriot II act - or just the time to read some article that someone else wrote after having claimed to have read it? That is not what the Patriot II act says - it's someone else's biased interpretation.

Think for yourself, Monkey-boy.

[Diekan]

That's the best you come up with?

[Langston]

I don't need to come up with anything more... anyone can post some biased bullshit - it doesn't mean anyone has to treat it as anything other than that: Bullshit.

[Diekan]

Well smart guy... sinse you're so much more enlightened than the rest of us... sinse you're soooo much smarter than everyone else here. Why don't you post something based on fact that proves my opinion wrong? Rather than just coming here and screaming "bullshit." Prove it.

Disprove my post. Better yet, prove to me that the Patriot Act is an effective means to fight terrorism on the home front and is no threat to our individual freedoms. Of course your one of the bright lights here that think morality is more important than freedom and economic stability.

[Harrison]

since
since
since
since

I'm sorry I had to call it...

[Langston]

Diekan - your post is precisely what Vonkaar was talking about. You post someone else's words and then say "HA! TAKE THAT!". I don't have to rebutt your "opinions" - because they're not YOUR opinions... they're some stupid article that you dug up and posted.

Just because you link something doesn't make it true and asking me to respond to it is like asking me to hit the baseball when you haven't thrown one, yet.

[Tacks]

Hey guys I didn't read anything Durck wrote because he is one of those under educated illiterate backwoods hicks.

[vonkaar]

Cliff notes from this thread:

Lol and his true conspiracy theory surfaces and rears its ugly head with teeth beared ready to scream "waaaah"

This is why you're washed up, you just talk shit. You babble on like a rabid hippy.

Eminem is a fucking retard, I lost a lot of respect for him because of his current ignorance.

BLAH BLAH BLAH *wipes the foam from mouth* IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME YOU ARE A DUMBYHEAD

That WAS ignorance you just posted.

No that means you voted for Bush because he has your same stance on issues that are important to you. Just because YOU dont agree, that doesnt make the others ignorant.

You're an idiot and that barely requires me to point out.

All in all your post was by far the most ignorant for today.

How is voting for someone who supports or has a stance equal or similar to your own ignorant?

Did you just learn this word or are you at odds with synonyms?

You claim I cant say anything for myself, every single time I have. And then someone comes and says the same thing better. And I point out that they just said what I had, but better...and I cant think for myself?

It's ridiculously obvious you just dont like me or my views and you're grasping straws to try and "own" me. Failing miserably by blatantly lying.

Lyion :love: most of the time says everything Ive said already just more calm. How is that riding his coat tails?

I admit this and bow to him saying he did it better saying everything I have and more.

What Lyion :love: said came after what I said.

He just said what I did better

That's what he said later. Same idea except he just words it differently.

I voted for Bush because I know if we're going to be attacked again he wont take any shit. From anyone.

I could explain it more calmly, but I dont give two shits what people think about my opinion. Because it is a VERY valid opinion.

Lyion has said everything I need to, Im not much of a debater.

I have called Vonkaar and conceded defeat.

In other words,


Some people should simply stay out of 'adult' discussions. I've stopped debating the Bush issues now, but I can't keep myself off the Fin trainwreck. Bush won... but Fin isn't worthy of the "in your face, Bush won!" quip. Seriously, go back and view your contributions to this thread... outside of the Lyion cack-worship, did you make a single point?

As for everyone else... I think we need to hash out the individual topics. This thread could turn into one of those religious rants where we have individual posts that take up 4 pages... and nobody wants that. How about, we cover same-sex marriage, stem-cell research (hi Dieken) and Bush's military benefits arguments elsewhere.

[Tacks]

Haha is that lumberjack really Finawin?

[Harrison]

Vonkaar you really are that stupid...

I had my opinions and someone else came and said some of those very same opinions, after me.

God Forbid

All I see is someone angry at the country because they didnt choose a president the way they wanted to. Now they lash out like a child scorned. Waah poor you.

[Tacks]

quit being ignorant

[vonkaar]

No. You struggled to express your cookie-cutter opinions as well as the guy you heard on the radio. Your attempts made you look like a fucking inbred moron. Lyion came in, spoke with a vastly superior grasp of the English language and you rough-humped his leg for a few pages. This isn't Hawking and Nielson arguing neutrino theory with Thorne... it's a mildly educated poli-sci professor arguing with God (me) while a 3rd grader chimes in, echoing his parent's opinions.
"Yeah, what he said..." That's the summary of your entire contributions to this thread.

[Tacks]

Vonkaar has a much more eloquent way of saying what I was trying to tell you. You haven't said ONE thing in the past 2 months during political talks that wasn't equivalent to high-fiving Lyion or Martrae.

[vonkaar]

Yeah, what he said.

[Harrison]

Taxx you haven't done much more than "Bush is an idiot" pretty much your entire tenure in CA. You just recently poked your head into CA and still have no idea what's going on. Keep in rants and flames where you belong, even there you have somewhat of a purpose. Here you're just worthless.

You chime in every now and again saying everyone is a biased jackass or some such, and then spout your anti bush hate.

No bias there

[vonkaar]

How do you "bush is an idiot?"

[Harrison]

You're a smart boy, figure it out.

[Lyion]

True, he could just come here and post nihilism and 'Shut the Fuck up you stupid motherfucker' equivalents.

Or pretend he's a liberal in Texas, due to being virtually whipped and e-infatuated, to raise his epeen standing online, when everyone knows secretly he's more conservative than anyone here!

[vonkaar]

Taxx you haven't done much more than "Bush is an idiot"

Does that clear things up for you?

everyone knows secretly he's more conservative than anyone here

I was just talking to Azlana about some of these recent rants... one bit was the Death-Penalty debate. My comments went something like, "heh, I don't really care about the Death-Penalty... it's just an easy debate."

Maybe I really am an ultra-conservativistationalist.

[Azlana]

I was just talking to Azlana about some of these recent rants... one bit was the Death-Penalty debate. My comments went something like, "heh, I don't really care about the Death-Penalty... it's just an easy debate."

Actually what you said was "I don't care about the Death Penalty...it's just an easy debate, lol." Just like that. Loser.

[vonkaar]

pick up your phone jerk

[Lyion]

Should we bring up the paradox of those that are pro death penalty, and Anti Abortion Choice, or vice versa?

I think it reveals the true nature of Muricans.

[vonkaar]

I never touched on that one...

how about anti-gun-control (respect my civil liberties!) vs patriot act (abuse my civil liberties!)?