Josh Howard for Ron Artest

[vonkaar]

Have had some interesting debates via email today... thought I'd share them with you.

In case you didn't know, the Mavs have told the Kings "no way" when they requested Josh Howard for Ron Artest. Surprisingly, a majority of fans in DFW think we should do that. I think that we should keep onto Josh... What do ya'll think?

Here is the discussion up to this point:

You guys are stupid for holding onto Howard over Artest (in a CONTRACT year)

Howard has the better upside and he's not going to quit in the middle of the season to marry Carmen Electra.

At the very best, Josh Howard is a 20/8/3 guy with good defense. Artest puts up the same numbers, but he is a LOCKDOWN defender and a better passer. And he'd be a freaking bodyguard to Dirk... something you only barely get out of Howard.

I would make that trade. The reason is because of the playoffs. Who would you rather have on your team in the playoffs? I agree with your buddy. Numbers wise, they are the same...but in the playoffs you need the tenacity that weed and Josh just don't give you. Artest would be there mentally EVERY time in the playoffs...his numbers might not be there...but he will make up for that in the plays they don't take stats on (think Bruce 'the douche bag' Bowen). Josh has proven that he *can* go away in the playoffs. When Dirk goes away...and Josh is away...we suck. I think that Artest would NOT LET Dirk go away. Plus, I think Stack needs another 'Stack' if you will...Artest fits that role perfectly.

Are you at all worried about his 'mental' issues though? Cuban gambled with Dennis Rodman...

On the offense side of the court, I'm not at all convinced. I think Howard has the upside. He just took a major down turn, especially last year. Some people blame Avery for that. I still think Josh could be a 23-24ppg guy, if he played with the same intensity we got out of him 2 and 3 years ago.

Defensively? Hell yeah... Even Lebron said that Ron Artest is the only 1on1 matchup in the league that he avoids at all costs... said he was glad when Artest was moved to the West. With one of the top 2 defensive point-guards in the game (with Billups) in Kidd, a great shot-blocking center in Diop, and a defensive monster like Artest roaming around... AND a coach who lives by defensive principles... we could seriously be a top defense.

I just don't think that's who the Mavs are. I kind of see successful teams in the NBA as building around the strengths of their superstar(s). Nash was quick and an ace-passer. Colangelo built the Suns to play quicker than hell and D'Antoni taught them how to RUN FAST and catch alley-oops and you get a dominant offensive team for 5 years in a row. Chris Paul is a terrific scoring guard with great court vision and the ability to find open passes. Build a team with a good young offensive center in Chandler and an excellent 'catch-and-release' shooter with David West. Kobe Bryant is the greatest offensive talent since Chamberlain and he is coached by an innovator of the triangle offense. Put 'high-IQ' players around him that can 'also' do-it-all and let the triangle go to work.

Dirk is a shooting big-man with marginal (at best) defensive skills. His UNDEFENSABLE shot is from the elbows, especially before the defense has fully setup, but not necessarily 'fast-break'. We had Jason Terry (the JET nickname conveys SPEED) at shooting guard and Devin Harris as one of the fastest point-guards in the game. Why did we transform into a methodic, take-our-time half-court team? This happened before Kidd arrived... and it wasn't working. In our 67-win season, we won by playing up our amazing offensive talents and doing our very best on defense. That 'team' concept also describes what Dirk is all about. Amazing offensive talents, and doing his very best on defense. And, he won the MVP that year. Hell, two thirds of the roster in our western conference champions season were considered defensive LOSERS before they got here - Stackhouse, Kieth Van Horn, Griffin, et al. But in our system, they all turned into decent, if not "good" defenders.

Bringing Kidd and Artest here just doesn't make sense to me... If we want to build a defensive-oriented Mavericks, why do it around Dirk? He's never going to get any better than he was in 2006-2007... and at his position, would you even put him in the top 10 PFs (in a defense viewpoint)? Think about it... Duncan, Garnett, Boozer, Brand, Bosh, Nene, Gasol(meh), Randolph, Battier, R.Wallace, J Oneal, Gooden, Villanueva, Okafor, Horford... Nowitzki... Where does he fit in that group? Towards the bottom, I'd say... lots of great defenders in there. Offense? He's #1, no doubt... hardly even any competition.

See my point? Are we good enough that we can try and do what Detroit did in 2004 and build a team of equals? Or is Dirk still the man? I say he is, and that means we should play HIS game... not force him to slow down and play someone elses.

[Zanchief]

A few points about Artest. I think his defense is great, but looking at LeBron and saying he's the best at defending him so he's the best in the league is a little circular. He has the perfect balance of strength and athleticism to defend people like LeBron, Carmelo, Pierce and other big twos. He's strong enough to defend Small 4s who don't play down low (like Dirk, Bosh, etc...) but those are his ideal defensive matchups. Against smaller quicker guards like Ben Gordon, Allen Iverson, Duane Wade he's not the best in the league, I'd even wager Howard would be better in those scenarios.

Anywho, they'd have to get something else back if they were making a Howard/Artest deal. The weed thing isn't big enough to give up a young all-star with minor problems, for an aging has been with all the problems in the world. Artest is fools gold. If he's your missing piece your reaching and you'll never make it IMO. If you're really looking to move Howard I think Deng would be the better fit.

[recks]

IMO the weed deal with Howard was blown way outta proportion. The problem with the Mav's isn't Howard, it's 1. Cuban reacting to drastically to the Gasol trade and dealing Harris for Kidd and 2. Dirks bad leadership. Artest is no leader, he's just a bad rapper.

I agree with everything that Zan said, but I don't think CHI will part with Deng. NJ is looking to rebuild... maybe they could nab VC nice and cheap

[vonkaar]

For starters, I didn't say Artest was the best defender in the league because he can guard Lebron... I said, he's a great defender - can absolutely shutdown top offensive players like Lebron. And... nobody can guard everyone, you wouldn't put Marcus Camby or Ben Wallace on Steve Nash... but Artest really IS one of the top defenders we've seen in the past 10 years. Bowen, Kirilenko, etc.

Went drinking with some friends last night, got into a pretty heated debate with these 2 dudes about the Mavs. The Howard / Artest thing fizzled out but then this one dude was completely knocking Kidd... even went so far as to put a $100 bet that Kidd will "ride the bench in at LEAST 20 games this season." Said if he were Carlisle, he'd start JJB over Kidd . He puked all over the patio about 20 minutes later, but w/e...

Anyway, I think that the league has seriously dumped on Howard because of ONE bad year and an honest admission of weed-smokage. Big fucking deal. Two years ago, or even last year, Deng for Howard would have been a joke of a trade. Any FORWARD who makes the all-star team in the West is obviously doing something REALLY good. Last night, one of the drunks even offered we should trade him for Jamaal Crawford!

In MY opinion... he SHOULD be much more 'tradeable' than when we pawned off the two twans. We received major compensation for Jamison... and plenty for Walker as well. Howard has put up much better years and was much more important for us than Jamison was in 03... but could we get the 5th pick and Hedo Turkoglu for him this year? Fuck no. (Hedo was a quick example of someone equivalent to a 30 year old Stackhouse we acquired from Washington+pick5).. Anyway, it doesn't make sense and I think a lot of GMs are just trying to take advantage of his current low stock value because they KNOW what he's capable of.