NBA Labor Dispute

[vonkaar]

This just shows how big of a fail the lockout was... Day one of free agency sees New York and LA getting the biggest upgrades. Small-market-parity is a myth. These small markets are only there to fill a season as fodder for the yankees, I mean Lakers/Heat/Knicks/Mavs/few-others. So pathetic. How can Stern even pretend to care about an 'even-playing field' when he trades Paul to the richest franchise in the league? The league is such a joke. I can't imagine how it would feel to be a Raptors/Bucks/Pacers/Bobcats fan tomorrow.

As if you REALLY had a shot at any of the good free agents. Good luck in the draft. Kevin Durants come by once every 15 years.

[Arlos]

rofl, some owners are crying foul apparently: (from ESPN)

The Los Angeles Lakers trade to obtain New Orleans Hornets point guard Chris Paul for Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom has hit a snag, sources tell ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Sources said that a group of NBA owners, assembled in New York for the ratification of the league's new labor pact with the players, protested vigorously that the league-owned Hornets were trading Paul to the star-studded Lakers and convinced NBA commissioner David Stern to intervene.

"The deal is off," one source told ESPN.com.

All that said, if it's the best deal on the table for Paul, why SHOULDN'T they make the trade?

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

The owners own the Hornets. There thing is, get a new owner in there before you trade Paul, so the team doesn't lose value.

Vonk is right though, but the problem with the parity issue isn't only the league, it's the mentality of the players too. For some reason the current crop of players only want to go to certain markets. I think this may be agent fueled more then player. They get in their ear and tell them that they will make XYZ in marketing revenue if they play in LA, BOS, CHI what ever.

The league has systems in place to make it harder, but really, those supper teams could be in the Indiana. The Pacers would be willing to pay whatever the Lakers are paying if they have as good a team. The players, for what ever reason, just refuse to play there. Also there seems to be a bit of a momentum issue. Certain teams suddenly become attractive for what ever reason. Miami is a terrible sports town based on fans, attendance, and visibility. The only reason to play there is the weather. NJ and the Clips were notoriously terrible but have suddenly become a hot spot. I think there's a chance for most small market teams to gain a bit of momentum in this way. I think that's where TOR lands to be honest. People here don't really see the Raps as a small market team. We are always in the top 10 in attendance. Our cable deals are pretty good. The problem is we haven't had the strongest management so we're viewed (rightfully) as a losing club. If the team ever starts winning I could see the team move into the top 5 in terms of revenue. Other teams like Charlotte, Milwaukee, have bigger issues. But look at the Spurs. Anything is possible with good management. And when you look at the Knicks you can see that money and influence don't always equal success. They've been one of the most desirable markets in the league for 30 years and have one finals appearance to show for it.

It seems like a big problem, but I don't know if there's a simple solution aside from murdering all the agents and cloning 30 Jerry Mcguire's.

[vonkaar]

I don't know why everyone always lumps the Spurs in as a small market. It's the 7th largest city in the US and is expected to pass Philly and Phoenix for #5 by 2020. They only have 1 professional team and the fans are pretty fanatical about them. No, they aren't a major metropolitan area like NY/LA/Houston/Chicago/DFW but... that seems silly to put a city with 1.7 million residents in as a 'small market'. Maybe its just because they don't spend big or have massive TV deals. Shrug.

It was just a small sticking point.

Too much relies on TV revenue. The NFL has so many income streams. It's okay for the New Orleans (46th largest metropolitan area) Saints and the Green Bay Packers (153rd) to be top teams in the league and the last two super bowl champions. It doesn't affect revenue and viewership is near record highs. The league is swimming in cash. The NBA has 3 or 4 teams that absolutely HAVE TO BE in the playoffs or they would lose everything. Fortunately, over half of the league makes the playoffs every year so there's a good chance a major market will be in it despite the Isaiah Thomas' of the world. Furthermore, the new luxury tax rules have helped the major markets so much that they CAN be the yankees if they wanted. LAs new billion-dollar TV deal pretty much cancels out any taxes they'd pay for the next 20 years. They can build whatever the fuck kind of team they want now.

It's such a mess.

cong Toronto on new owners

[Zanchief]

Well you put TOR in a small market when the GTA has 5.5 million pop. Just saying.

[vonkaar]

Holy xenu, really? I've only been to Montreal and Quebec City and they both seemed tiny. I figured Canada had like 300k citizens in the whole empire.

shows what I know...

shrug... I guess it goes both ways. People strangely put both Toronto and San Antonio in the 'small-market' category despite their size.

Wait, it's probably because it's a fucking hockey town first, second and third and basketball falls somewhere between Curling and moose rodeo? I kid, I'm just professing my ignorance of Canadialand by my Toronto faux pas.

[Zanchief]

Well I think it's 2.5 mill proper but TOR has a lot of suburbs that are part of the greater toronto area. It's true it's a hockey town, but it's also a very urban city and there's a lot of growing support for the raptors even though we've had very little too root for. I really feel this could be a very huge Basketball market if the team every turns it around. In the Carter days it looked like that was going to happen, but well...we all know about that.

TOR has other issues that are aside from money. Many American players just don't like the idea of playing in another country. I feel that will be solved if we ever start winning. We'll have to wait and see.

[Arlos]

I think it's the TV revenues that are driving the definition. Nicks and Lakers, and I guess a couple other teams, have gazillion dollar local TV contracts, which means they can basically be the Yankees. The NFL mandates that all TV revenues get split up between all the teams to avoid that very problem. If the NBA was SERIOUS about "competitive balance", why didn't they use the lockout to enforce the NFL model?

I think the answer is obvious, and that they WEREN'T serious about that, it was just a talking point, but what do I know...

As for Paul, all I've read seems to say that it was actually a really GOOD offer, ultimately, and probably far better than they're likely to get if they wait til the trade deadline, and let the stink of the situation follow the team around all year. Local media here wahs been saying that the Warriors were actually really reluctant to move Curry, and were actually offering Ellis instead. Thoughts on that?

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Parity was never an issue for the owners right now. The lockout was about making the league more profitable by reducing the players share of BRI. They largely got what they wanted then barely touched the system issues.

The reason the league rejected the deal wasn’t because they were afraid the Lakers would be too good, it’s because they didn’t want to try and sell The Hornets without a star and with way more salary. They were taking in too much salary to make the deal work.

Ellis for Paul isn’t a good deal for NOH. It makes sense that they didn’t do that deal.

[vonkaar]

No, the league definitely whined about parity. Several owners made their letters public. Go read Dan Gilberts' protest letter to David Stern, it's almost word for word what I've been saying above. He concludes with, "when are we going to change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?" I think it's telling that Stern rejects the trade and then only hours later starts telling people how he wants to retire soon.

Money is a concern, sure... but it's being made more of a deal than it really should be. No future owner thinks that HE will be the one that'll somehow convince Paul to stay in New Orleans, so he'll know that he's buying a team sans-superstar. And yes, that LAL-HOU-NOH trade was VERY good for NOH. They would move Paul and get Lamar Odom, Luis Scola and Kevin Martin in return. That's pretty baller. Would the new owner see it that way? Hard to tell. So that definitely played a factor. But it's an unknown and I agree with the pundits who say that NOH trades should be essentially shutdown until the buyer is finalized. This is no way to run a team. Oh, we want to act like there's nothing different, but we'll pussy-foot around basketball operations because of some fictional future owner's fears. Wtf man.

Ellis for Paul is stupid. They'd have to know that almost every team in the league could beat that offer. Not bashing Monta, he's a stud, but they offered him for Josh Howard two years ago. Do they think that J-Ho is on the same planet as Chris Paul? It's a silly offer.

[Zanchief]

I agree parity is a major problem with the NBA, but it simply was not the focus of these labour negotiations. Gilbert is always harping about that, but look at the result. The work stoppage was entirely because of BRI. Never once was there mention of system issues being the cause of friction. It was an afterthought for the NBA. I'm sure they wanted it, but they didn't fight for it.

It's not only that the team wouldn't have a superstar, it's that they'd be taking a lot more salary. Cuban made the same complain earlier in the year when NOH made a deal to take on more salary. I think the league would be happier of Paul just left and let them rebuild with a high pick and no long term salary attachments. Odom wouldn't do them any good anyway. A clean slate might be more attractive to a buyer then mess they have now.

[Arlos]

Except that the Hornets do *NOT* have more value with Paul there than they do now, because everyone with half a brain knows that even if NO keeps him this year, he's gone with no compensation whatsoever after the season.

Everything I have read said that by any measure, it was a defensible basketball trade, and that the NO GM did a good job of getting really good value despite his lack of leverage. Every columnist I've read is excoriating the NBA for nixing the trade.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Well they are wrong. ESPN works in LA and wants Paul there. Most national beat writers want Paul in LA because it makes for good print. The trade was good value, but it doesn't make the Hornets a more enticing team. Here's a few things those columnists likely didn't write about.

Now that NOH has told Paul to sit and wait he has three choices. Sign with a team that has tons of cap space like IND, TOR or a few others. Dallas might be in the mix here. Likely doesn't sound to appealing to him since he can't really dictate where he goes. Option 2, take a seriously reduced salary cut to play for LAL or NYK or wherever he wants to go. IE Never going to happen. Option 3. Re-sign with NOH and do a sign and trade to where ever the hell he wants. Guess how much leverage and value to fully signed Chris Paul has? More then the broken parts and bloated contracts that went to NOH in this deal.

But again, this was a business move, not a basketball move. Ask Cuban about that. He derided NOH from doing this exact thing earlier this year. This isn't Stern's call either. This was the ownership group (30 NBA Owners...well likely 27).

Maybe they do have more value, maybe they don't. But they don't have all that extra long term payroll, which is huge for a rebuilding team, which NOH are right now. And those owners don't have to pay for them either, which they don't want to do.

Read Simmons collumn on the subject. I feel the complete opposite. The guys a tool.

[vonkaar]

woot, Odom for free

the Dallas Vince Carter experiment begins

[Zanchief]

Now that the Clippers are offering even more then that poop platter, I'll hold back on the I told you so's, because I'm just not like that.

Odom is probably one of the most under paid players in the league (not on a rookie contract). Very nice pick up.

[vonkaar]

better article on the CP3 situation: http://mavericks.scout.com/2/1138336.html

Simmons is a knee-jerk writer but I love him anyway because he has been so sympathetic to the Mavs over the years (refused to let the 2006 Refs vs Mavs conspiracy die, etc).

[Zanchief]

Great article. I love it. Pretty much agree with it, except he doesn't even bring up the financial side, which I think played a very big part of the refusal of the first deal. At this point I see Stern being one of the savviest GMs in the league. Wouldn't it be hilarious if he retired as Commissionaire and took over a team full time? He's basically showing the pushovers of the league how to do it. He's creating a blueprint for how to get the league back from the players, and the players are terrified.

I'm loving this.

The thing that pisses me off most about Simmons is that he advocates for the big market because he’s such an unabashed Boston homer. His entire article is basically an indictment of the league for trying to prevent players from going to the best markets simply because he believes Boston would benefit from it. He’s a dork. Plus I hate (HATE!) the Celtics.

[vonkaar]

I think Stern is done. This really might be his last year.

heh, we just signed Delonte West. All these 1 year deals. Pretty crazy how clearly we're targeting 2012. Even still, 2011 shouldn't be that bad. While I'm definitely on board with upgrading our center rotation, especially if we can get Dwight somehow... I'm not too scared to go into the season like this.

People at the positions they can play:

Point Guards: Jason Kidd, Delonte West, Roddy B, Jason Terry, Drew Neitzel, Dominique Jones
Shooting Guards: Rudy Fernandez, Vince Carter, Jason Terry, Roddy B, Corey Brewer
Small Forwards: Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, Corey Brewer
Power Forwards: Dirk Nowitzki, Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, Brian Cardinal, Brandan Wright
Centers: Brendan Haywood, Ian Mahimi, Dirk Nowitzki, Brandan Wright

Starting lineup right now would likely be Kidd, Fernandez, Odom, Dirk, Haywood. That's a pretty tall lineup and built for a half-court game. Small ball would be Kidd, Roddy or Jet, Marion or Carter with Odom at the 4 and Dirk playing the 5. We have good role players and a nice bench. Age is obviously a concern... we still have a roster slot to fill but our 14 players have an average of 7.4 years of experience. I'm pretty confident that's the oldest in the league. I only looked at San Antonio (reputation for aged team) and they are at 6 years. Even before the Jefferson amnesty they were still younger. Still... Dirk, Jet and Marion are in great shape. How long can Kidd keep this up?

[Zanchief]

Rumor have you looking to dump both Brewer and Fernandez for insta relief so you might have another small hole at SG. I think the VC signing hinges on it so it's either one or the other? My info was from a few days ago so things may have changed.

I agree Stern is done, but I think I like him now more then ever. I think he's just had enough. He can't take the conflict and whining from both sides anymore. I'd love it if he wrote a book though. It's not his style but it would be cool to hear it all from him for once.

Since TOR now has Aaron Gray and Rasual Butler I think we're pretty much a lock for the championship.

[vonkaar]

yeah, apparently Denver wants Rudy and Brewer but I haven't heard what we get back. Maybe Nene in a sign & trade. That seems fair =)

[Zanchief]

I think it's just TPE.

[Snero]

Since TOR now has Aaron Gray and Rasual Butler I think we're pretty much a lock for the championship.

uggg, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Ah well, at least the raps didn't sign bonzi wells