Ricky Williams Retires

[Lyion]

Anyone that says Williams was anything short of a future hall-of-famer and possible candidate for honorable mention as 'best ever' was watching a different sport than me. He *could* have been at least an Emmit. Probably not a Brown, but he did leave like one =p.

Shrug... I'm glad we got the only 'good' veteren back on the market when we could. Miami would have been paying HIGH DOLLA for George right now.

He was nowhere near 'BEST EVER honorable mention. One Pro Bowl season does not make him a future hall of famer, either.

Go watch some reruns of Bears games with Walter Payton, and then try and compare Ricky with him.

Williams had the TALENT and SKILL to be a Hall of Famer, but he never gave the 110% one got from someone like Payton.

You can tell often his heart wasn't in it. He played so much harder in college than the NFL, as anyone who watched many UT games could tell you.

I like Ricky Williams and there's no denying the talent was there, but Jamal Lewis owns him in every concievable way, including the level of drug dealing. Check their 40 times, yards, attitude, power, and shitty QBs.

Talk to ANY GM and even if Ricky hadn't done this, very few would take him over LT, Portis, Lewis, or several other backs. He's not in the top 3 in the league NOW and you are saying best ever?

Thats the Texan in you talking, and recalling the Ricky Williams from UT, who was the best back to ever play college ball... That Williams never made it to the NFL

[Tacks]

I'm a Dolphins fan and I would not call him a top 3 back in the NFL today but he was our only offense. He was better than Abdul-Jabber's 1 yd per carry average.

[Tadpole]

ricky was a very good RB, and it is hard to tell if he would have gone to the hall of fame or not, because he was only 27 years young. you also have to put into play the team around the player. ricky did not have a great offensive line last year, as they battled through injuries and such. yes jamal lewis did have a lot of yards last year, but, a mass chunk of those were against the browns (400 or 500 yards versus a suck defense). i will agree with you on the part where you said he is lacking the heart though.

[Ouchyfish]

Larry Csonka said he will come back if the money is right.

[Tadpole]

Larry Csonka said he will come back if the money is right.

[vonkaar]

He's not in the top 3 in the league NOW and you are saying best ever?

No... I'm saying that he was on track for that type of career. He had a fantastic start... the kind of numbers that most backs don't enjoy until 'this' part of their career. Even more important...

Every other 'top 5' RB played on a team that LOVED TO RUN. Ricky never once played on a team that played old-school grind offense... he would have excelled in that environment. Jim Brown is really the only person that truly belongs atop the RB mountain... every other 'great' RB (besides Allen, maybe) had a coach that prized their contributions. Brown gets this exception because he played in a time when nobody even really TRIED to stop the passing game.

Smith... Simpson... Sanders... Dickerson... Campbell... Payton... they all had coaches that believed in them.

That last game in 2002 against New England should serve as a perfect example for how much Wannstedt likes to run. New England had the surprise 'miracle' final 5 minutes BECAUSE of the poor coaching decisions... even when Ricky was running as strong as ever. It didn't make sense.

[Arlos]

If you ask me, any discussion of "Best Ever" should probably be confined to Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.

Payton, OJ and a few others are up there, buth Brown & Sanders are head and shoulders above 'em. Consider what Sanders did on a whole bunch of TRULY crappy teams, and without hardly eve rhaving a fullback blocking for him. Defenses KNEW the only offense Detroit had was Sanders, and they still couldn't stop him.

Now, if only he could've gotten out of that toxic Detroit situation and made it onto a GOOD team, I bet he would've played 3-4 more years, easy. Big loss for football, his retirement.

-Arlos

[Tacks]

If you ask me, any discussion of "Best Ever" should probably be confined to Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.

Agree

And if Barry Sanders ever played on a decent team I bet he could have averaged 175 yards a game every year.

[Lyion]

If you ask me, any discussion of "Best Ever" should probably be confined to Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.

Payton, OJ and a few others are up there, buth Brown & Sanders are head and shoulders above 'em. Consider what Sanders did on a whole bunch of TRULY crappy teams, and without hardly eve rhaving a fullback blocking for him. Defenses KNEW the only offense Detroit had was Sanders, and they still couldn't stop him.

Now, if only he could've gotten out of that toxic Detroit situation and made it onto a GOOD team, I bet he would've played 3-4 more years, easy. Big loss for football, his retirement.

-Arlos

You're obviously too young to remember all the complete ass Bear teams Walter played on in Chicago up until he was in the twilight of his career and finally won a Super Bowl.

He joined the Bears in 1975, when they were coming off back to back 4-10 seasons. There was no free agency, so they were a suck team, and he had a huge impact. He played for three coaches before he was on a decent team, and he still shredded NFC power defenses. And he wasn't a Prima Donna like so many RBS.

He was the NFL Player of the year and MVP in both 1977 and 1985. He caught 492 passes for 4,538 yards and 15 touchdowns, He had 16,726 rushing yards with 100 touchdowns. He played in nine Pro Bowls. That, and he was 10 times the blocker, reciever, and overall RB than either Sanders or Brown.

I'd take Payton over Sanders or Brown any day and twice on Sunday.

[Arlos]

Not arguing that Payton wasn't awesome, Lyion. He's certainly top-5 if not #3. Remember, OJ played on some really awful teams to, where was the only offensive threat, and actually put up a 2000 yard season back when seasons were only 14 games, so he's certainly up there in the discussion too. It's just that Sanders and Brown were better than other guys.

Sanders was actually a pretty good receiver, he just never got used that way. Nor was he called upon to block, cause, well, there was no one worthwhile for him to block FOR. As for Brown, well, I can't say with authority as he's definitely before my time. Speaking to my dad about it tho (not that he's some amazing authority), who's been a football fan since the 50s, and he said Brown's the best he' seen.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

Not arguing that Payton wasn't awesome, Lyion. He's certainly top-5 if not #3. Remember, OJ played on some really awful teams to, where was the only offensive threat, and actually put up a 2000 yard season back when seasons were only 14 games, so he's certainly up there in the discussion too. It's just that Sanders and Brown were better than other guys.

Sanders was actually a pretty good receiver, he just never got used that way. Nor was he called upon to block, cause, well, there was no one worthwhile for him to block FOR. As for Brown, well, I can't say with authority as he's definitely before my time. Speaking to my dad about it tho (not that he's some amazing authority), who's been a football fan since the 50s, and he said Brown's the best he' seen.

-Arlos

Yeah, my Dad says the same in regards to Brown. I honestly can't talk about him because I've just seen tapes, and its much different than the real thing.

I remember Payton though, and the guy was a stud, and a better back than Sanders, in my opinion, since he had everything.

I remember many runs where Sanders lost a ton of yards. He also was weak on the goal line. I also remember Sanders getting killed by linebackers trying to block. There's no denying he was an amazing runner, though and could dance and move like few.

Payton almost never lost yardage, was great in the open field and the goal line, and killed linebackers blitzing. He had scary speed, was tough to tackle, and also punished those who hit him.

I'd put Sanders in my top 5, and he was fun to watch, but not in my top 3.

[vonkaar]

You stand alone in that Lyion... Jim Brown is my pick and is often the pick for 'best ever, by sport.' Jim Brown did it all when every defense did everything they could to specifically stop the run. Arlos is exactly right on Sanders. Detroit had one weapon and they still couldn't stop him.

I'm not sure that you want to bring numbers into it... Payton gets beaten by almost all of the top backs in that bit...

Rushing
Most Seasons Leading League
8 Jim Brown, Cleveland, 1957-1961, 1963-65
Again, he did this when nobody passed. Only Van Buren had to face similar defenses
4 Steve Van Buren, Philadelphia, 1945, 1947-49
O.J. Simpson, Buffalo, 1972-73, 1975-76
Eric Dickerson, L.A. Rams, 1983-84, 1986; Indianapolis, 1988
Emmitt Smith, Dallas, 1991-93, 1995
Barry Sanders, Detroit, 1990, 1994, 1996-97
3 Earl Campbell, Houston, 1978-1980

Rushing
Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League
5 Jim Brown, Cleveland, 1957-1961
Again...
3 Steve Van Buren, Philadelphia, 1947-49
Jim Brown, Cleveland, 1963-65
Earl Campbell, Houston, 1978-1980
Emmitt Smith, Dallas, 1991-93
2 Bill Paschal, N.Y. Giants, 1943-44
Joe Perry, San Francisco, 1953-54
Jim Nance, Boston, 1966-67
Leroy Kelly, Cleveland, 1967-68
O.J. Simpson, Buffalo, 1972-73; 1975-76
Eric Dickerson, L.A. Rams, 1983-84
Barry Sanders, Detroit, 1996-97
Edgerrin James, Indianapolis, 1999-2000

Attempts
Most Seasons Leading League
6 Jim Brown, Cleveland, 1958-59, 1961, 1963-65
4 Steve Van Buren, Philadelphia, 1947-1950
Walter Payton, Chicago, 1976-79

Touchdowns
Most Seasons Leading League
5 Jim Brown, Cleveland, 1957-59, 1963, 1965
4 Steve Van Buren, Philadelphia, 1945, 1947-49
3 Abner Haynes, Dall. Texans, 1960-62
Cookie Gilchrist, Buffalo, 1962-64
Paul Lowe, L.A. Chargers, 1960; San Diego, 1961, 1965
Leroy Kelly, Cleveland, 1966-68
Emmitt Smith, Dallas, 1992, 1994-95

Touchdowns
Most Touchdowns, Game
6 Ernie Nevers, Chi. Cardinals vs. Chi. Bears, Nov. 28, 1929
5 Jim Brown, Cleveland vs. Baltimore, Nov. 1, 1959
Cookie Gilchrist, Buffalo vs. N.Y. Jets, Dec. 8, 1963
James Stewart, Jacksonville vs. Philadelphia, Oct. 12, 1997
Clinton Portis, Denver vs. Kansas City, Dec. 7, 2003
4 By many players

Brown doesn't have the big 'career' records, for obvious reasons. Regardless, Smith and Sanders mostly own those categories. It's the single seasons that matter anyway... Brown dominated the league in every single one of his seasons.

The two most important yearly stats are averages...

Average gain per rush...
Jim Brown: 5.2 (once again...)
Walter Payton: 4.4

Average yards per year:
Jim Brown: 1368 (again...)
Walter Payton: 1286

The numbers don't lie...

[Lyion]

You stand alone in that Lyion... Jim Brown is my pick and is often the pick for 'best ever, by sport.' Jim Brown did it all when every defense did everything they could to specifically stop the run. Arlos is exactly right on Sanders. Detroit had one weapon and they still couldn't stop him.

I'm not sure that you want to bring numbers into it... Payton gets beaten by almost all of the top backs in that bit....

Not arguing Brown at at all, Vonk. I never saw Brown play, and people I respect think the guy was amazing and possibly the best football player to ever touch a ball.

I was simply comparing Payton and Sanders, two RBs whose whole careers I watched.

When Payton played, Chicago had very little passing and Corner Backs and DBs could get away with murder which limited their game.
He was their only weapon for years at a time when the most ferocious D's played, and with a very medicore line. A much, much worse line than Sanders had.

You'd really have to have watched the terrible Chicago teams to understand just how fucking GOOD Payton was in the late 70s/early 80s .

No knock on Sanders, as he was amazing. I believe Payton was the much better back, though.

[vonkaar]

Also... since you brought up 'awards' and other accomplishments...

Brown was pro-bowl every year of his career.
He was league MVP twice.
Rookie-of-the-year.
All-NFL 8 of his 9 years.

[vonkaar]

damnit.. reply inc...
(I wonder if I can fuck with the times...)

[vonkaar]

okay... triple reply...

uh...

okay, we agree then... I put payton at #2 too..

damnit...

fuck you and your Chicago ways.

[Lyion]

damnit.. reply inc...
(I wonder if I can fuck with the times...)

Do you bother to read my posts, you asshat, or just hit the stats book with with a gleeful smile and wood in your jeans?

[vonkaar]

hah! now we both owned ourselves with post timings

[Lyion]

I can start ripping on what a mediocre back Emmit was, and how my Grandma could have gotten 1500 yards a year behind Dallas' line...

(Which isn't true.. early 90s Emmit was a complete fucking stud..)

[vonkaar]

Saying such things wouldn't be allowed on a board that is run from a Dallas location. I'm not sure what would happen... but it probably wouldn't be pretty.

[Lyion]

Saying such things wouldn't be allowed on a board that is run from a Dallas location. I'm not sure what would happen... but it probably wouldn't be pretty.

Granny was pretty fast. I'm betting she could've gotten 4 yards a carry with that Dallas O Line. Those guys were as good as the Hogs of the 80s....

My personal most overrated back would be Dickerson. The guy had power and speed, but damn he fumbled a lot. The guy I'd compare him to today would be Jamal Lewis, another stud who has butterfingers. That extra 2 yards a pop looks good in the stat book, but those extra 6 fumbles a hurts.

[Ouchyfish]

Taxx might actually agree with me on this one, I know Vonk won't (haha):

One of my favorite games was in Dallas when they just about pulled off a win against Miami but..Leon Lett kinda messed things up in the snow. The look on the asshole owners face was priceless.

I liked the Cowboys before that shithead got involved. He reminded me of Footballs version of Steinbrenner.

[vonkaar]

No... we loved it too. It was pretty freaking funny.

Also... I think that the majority of Cowboys fans hate Jerry Jones more than the rest of the country.

[Tacks]

That was on Thanksgiving day. I was going nuts.

[Arlos]

I'd probably have Brown #1, Sanders #2, Payton #3, OJ #4. After that, it gets murky. Also, none of us can speak to where backs before Brown fit, either, and I've heard that a lot of the old-time watchers would have Red Grange or "Crazy-legs" Hersch up in that pack too. Guess we'll limit to the range to the late-50s and later, heh.

I think the thing that Sanders had above ANYONE though, is the ability to turn ANYTHING into a sudden 90 yard TD run. What another back, even a very good back, would turn into 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust, he could turn into huge breaks. He might have to run 50 extra yards side to side to DO it, but that's just the thing, he COULD do it. There were rumors as he was retiring that the 49ers were trying to trade for him, but nothing got done. Can you imagine the 49ers, with Young, Rice & Sanders? Talk about unstoppable...

Oh, and Fuck the Cowpatties. "America's Team" my ass. My eternal wish for them is a lifetime of 8-8 seasons. While seeing them go 1-15 is most satisfying, it also means they get a good draft pick. Now, if they go 8-8, or maybe 7-9, they don't have the morale booster of a winning season, they certainly won't go to the playoffs, yet they haven't done so bad as to get good picks, either. Perfect outcome all-around, I must say.

-Arlos