WOW starting to cave into the powergamer crowd?

[Drunnken]

dude i agree with most of what you say, and i think you have good taste in games, but you thinking i've been stalking you for three years totally invalidates anything you've ever said on the internet forever.

you're delusionally paranoid.

[Zanchief]

if you're so offended about the guards names gain a bunch of levels or exploit and kill them, then hose the sand out of your vagina, it's been there for 3+ years.

you thinking i've been stalking you for three years totally invalidates anything you've ever said on the internet forever.

Jeez I was joking around man but if you want to get technical, you said I had "sand in my vagina for three plus years". Meaning you have been following what I've been saying for three plus years. That's all I meant.

Now, can we get back to making fun of Tigole again?

[Drunnken]

yeah ok i feel better

but you're the only anti-LoS zealot left that's still vocal, even Taxx doesn't bitch so much anymore, that's where that part came from

i care about your being the only other person on NT that recognizes SOTN as a ri-goddamn-diculously great game way more

[Zanchief]

i care about your being the only other person on NT that recognizes SOTN as a ri-goddamn-diculously great game way more

Geek story hijack~

I got every item in the game once. Took me a while too Not sure if you have ever tried, but to give you an idea, every menu screen has exactly enough spaces to fit every item. I killed a lot of axelords that day.

[Drunnken]

is it possible to get the second fairy and the nose demon? or are they just a myth?

i got almost every item, all the cool super rare ones. the huge sword you can throw, from familiar i believe, and the multiblade sword trivialize the game. multiblade sword owns.

[Tacks]

First of all I don't care about LoS anymore because they don't even matter anymore.

I think Blizzard does a great job of listening...

But I have an issue if they tweak this game around the suggestions of Afterlife, Fires of Heaven, and Legacy.

Do they have an equal represnentation of casual gamers?

If the game becomes a caste system like EQ, that'd be a shame. It certainly seems they were trying to make it casual friendly.

I would say there are more casual gamers testing right now than there are powergamers. I see a lot more noobs than I see <Afterlifex> I think they'll get good input from both sides and I have full confidence that they'll cater to both groups.

[Lyion]

Well, the uber gamer crowd tends to make lots of noise. The casual gamer crowd does not. So if we have both in equal numbers, and to me it seems they've invited a LOT of lifer EQ guilds, then the feedback will not be equal in any sense.

Not to mention, rumor is they hired the FOH dude, as well as having the old LOS people.

If the game is built on a caste system requiring time to get to content, and catering to 8+ hour a day people, then I think it will push a lot of people away.

I personally won't ever game more than a few hours a week. If an MMORPG isn't geared towards that, I definitely won't buy it. I know most of my friends are of the same mindset.

I liked their initial design ideas, but I get the feeling they'll capitulate to the crying of the big guilds, and the game will move away from their initial ideas.

I'll reserve judgement until it gets out of beta. Hopefully they'll keep to their original designs, but the fact they are inviting and catering to so many endgame rush guilds makes me think they won't.

[Drem]

i always thought henric was cooler than tigole :roll:

[Wolfmoonson]

Hi Guys,

From what I've been seeing and reading, most of the feedback from the so called hardcore players has been around quest bugs, class bugs, exploits, and basic stuff that takes fun out of the game.

Currently multi-group and raid functionality is not enabled in WoW so atm the most you can have is a 5 man team getting exp in a dungeon. So your not going to see people /bugging boss mobs and guild timesinks.

The good thing about having these so called hardcore people testing is that these are people who know how to take advantage of any weakness in an encounter (maybe it's based on mob locations, class advantage, ability advantage, etc.) and /bug encounters where one class could exploit a boss mob to farm it (whether for economic advantage or guild advantage or just to grief others).

For example - Last night I bugged an NPC in Saltflats at the gnome/goblin racetrack near Thousand Needles (Think Utah's Needles National Park meets a Roadrunner cartoon) named "Plucky". This chicken is unkillable and only hits you for 1pt. Basically makes for an easy exploit where you can write a macro to use various combat abilities every few seconds and attack him then go AFK for a few hours come back and have all your combat abilities maxxed. This bug can also be used to max out ones skill in each weapon type too (Just like that still bugged guy in Warslik Woods that can be used to max range skills like archery in EQ with no risk). So /bugged it (sure others have too) and then proceeded to exploit the bug to max Wolf's weapon skills :-) (Well that's what a so called hardcore player would do).

This type of testing will help with making the end product more enjoyable if no one class appears to have a very noticable advantage over others (like the current incarnation of the Mage class for example which can solo 40+ characters by the time they reach lvl 36).

Casual players are good at testing low and mid level quests and the basic atmosphere of the game to help make that part more enjoyable. Currently on the boards there is discussion on how to make Inn's seem more alive and give them more atmosphere (bards, drinking, pipe smoke, games, dancing area, more beds, etc.). That sort of thing lends nothing to a guild player but is just as important in making the game enjoyable to a casual player that just wants to explore and lose himself in the game world.

So just because there are a lot of FoH, Afterlife, Triton, LoS, etc. it basically ends up being a benefit in finding exploits and imbalances since you know these people will take advantage of any weakness they can find in the game and they want the game to be a success so they will /bug and discuss weaknesses found in the game.

[Tacks]

Lyion, It's easier to just log in and play than EQ. You can grab a healer if you're a tank and go get xp for hours. Most people want to do quests because you get good xp and decent loot. It can take like 20 mins to get a quest done then you can log.

[Minrott]

Endgame means endgame. Since skill is relative, the only other factor is time conributed.

Besides, look at EQ now and all the newbs who can lvl up and experience the "endgame" without any effort or talent. WoW better be hard. It better have hardships and trials of determination and yes even timesinks in order to advance. If anyone can do anything regardless of whether or not they're skillful or not, or whether or not they have 3 hours a week or 20 hours a week to play, then what is the point? It's a glorified chat room then.

I want to be able to experience what I miss about EQ. I don't remember doing anything in EQ that was both easy and rewarding. I want late nights with a guild trying our damndest to do something that's maybe just a bit out of our league, and when we accomplish it, to see how happy it makes them, how proud they become of their accomplishment.

I want to kill bullshit mobs for 3 hours only to get whiped, CR'd and do the whole thing over to help that one guildmate get that one item they need to make uber_weapon001.

I want to play the game again with people like Ronstar and Kaynne and Henric. People who made me want to sacrifice my time and energy to help our guild go further one person at a time. I want to play with people like Slainn who would give up an treasurable item of their own to another guild member because it would be better for the guild. I want to play with people like Chuchu and Elmomo and Xaen who would show up for raid after raid after raid and maybe not get anything for themselves, but be happy to be there and happy to do it because those raids made our guild stronger.

People like that come to play for the endgame. Not to piss around doing jack off quests for 20 minutes and be under the impression they're improving something whether it be their own toon or their guild. God damn I miss those guys. That's what I remember enjoying when I played EQ. That's why I'm glad I quit when I did. That's why I hope WoW will cater to those kinds of people.

[Lyion]

WoW better be hard. It better have hardships and trials of determination and yes even timesinks in order to advance. If anyone can do anything regardless of whether or not they're skillful or not, or whether or not they have 3 hours a week or 20 hours a week to play, then what is the point? It's a glorified chat room then.

I hate to break it to you, but nothing in EQ really took skill. Knowing the zone, and understanding a revolving CH strat, or knowing a mobs weakness does not equal skill. If you think it does, then you are playing way too many video games!

Most people I know do not want to go back to the full time nature of EQ guilds. I'm sure there are some who do, but the amount of casual players HUGELY outnumbers the lifers. They are the holy grail, and building a game that makes them feel welcome, and without a 'caste' system built to reward full time players is the challenge facing 3rd Generation MMORPGs.

Thanks for the info, Taxx. I want to play an hour a night and feel I accomplished more than the average hour in EQ. If I can't, I certainly will not be purchasing it.

[Tacks]

Well in my opinion you can certainly accomplish things while playing for an hour. There's probably 10 or so quests per zone and most don't take long, especially with a partner. By the time you get those quests done you're levelled up enough to move to the next zone. The thing is, quests in WoW are not like EQ quests. The mobs you're killing are abundant and they give xp (imagine that). Once in a while you will get a "slay this boss monster" quest but the named spawn will spawn every 30 mins or so.

Nobody knows what the high end game is going to be like yet. But with all the powergamers playing I'm SURE there's going to be plenty of stuff to do.

[Minrott]

That was kind of my point Lyion. Knowledge, understanding, and patience. Not skill. So time is the only real denominator.

[Diekan]

I agree... I never understood when people would say "so and so has so much skill." I sat there thinking... "what skill?" Knowing what key to press isn't 'skill.' Mastering something like Quake III, yeah that takes a little skill - eye hand stuff, of course a low ping doesn't hurt.

[Drunnken]

constantly knowing, even remotely, what the hell is going on seems to be the skill to have in everquest

[Metranon]

Things being hard to do in EQ has always been one of my favorite things.

When the GoD flagging was first redone a couple months ago, I was one of the first people to put together a group and get the tipt and vxed trials done.

So we zone into kodtaz and start hailing npcs and looking around. After over an hour of scouting, myself and some other people figured out how to zone into ikkinz raid #1....had to DA the entire group and run through like 50 mobs into a small tunnel in the back before DA wore off and you got raped.

Knowing that we were the first people to ever zone into that area on our server was a special feeling, if you could just run there and complete quests in 20 minutes with a random group of people, there wouldn't be any sense of accomplishment

thats what I'm most afraid of in WoW. that areas and progression will be so geared toward casual players that those of us with 8+ hours to waste on figuring it out will be constantly bored to death within 90 minutes. it should be hard and unforgiving trying to get into some areas or finish certain quests, without frustration on the part of most players there will be no sense of accomplishment for those of us who are near sadists.

[Tikker]

at this point, I think WoW will have content for the casual and the hardcore

granted the lvl limit is only 39 atm, so endgame still remains a mystery

but you can definately log in, and get going lot quicker than you can with EQ (cause everyone can solo)


the problem i have with WoW, is that there's no death penalty
so you see a lot of people zerging shit =\

[Lyion]

I'll wait and see. I'm not very pleased at the fact they've invited all these lifer guilds in, and they seem to be trivializing PVP.

If WOW turns into EQ2 with a few neat tricks, I may pass.

I have no desire to play a 'caste' system game ever again, where ones status is based on their guild and time invested.

I'm holding out hope for a non guild based, non time sink, non treadmill game that caters to fun and isn't based on gathering levels and loot.

at this point, I think WoW will have content for the casual and the hardcore

granted the lvl limit is only 39 atm, so endgame still remains a mystery

but you can definately log in, and get going lot quicker than you can with EQ (cause everyone can solo)

the problem i have with WoW, is that there's no death penalty
so you see a lot of people zerging shit =\

[The Kizzy]

the problem i have with WoW, is that there's no death penalty
so you see a lot of people zerging shit =\

While there is no death penalty, I have found that when I die, its a long ass hike back to my corpse, then you have to find a safe place to rez, or get attacked again. I hate dieing over and over even with no exp loss, and many times, I will go to the ghost at the graveyard, and just take the loss.

I started a pally to play with Honey, and a warlock to solo with. I really am enjoying this game. Its fresh and new, and I think they will do well. I just hate that my pally has no spells to pull, and I have to go charging in to get a mob to aggro, and end up pulling three, but I can handle them. Im a bad ass pally. Now the necro, err Warllock, I am still fine tuning how my fighting style with her will be.

[Lyion]

Someone give an unbiased overview of WOW, please.

I hear people say its great <and people say it sucks> but I have yet to hear anyone tell me what they're actually doing?

I've read about the quests, which seem very Warcraftish. Is it Kill Monster A,B,C and level up? What is there to do besides kill mobs, and run quests?

Whats so fun about the game, or not?

[Tacks]

I'll try to write up some kind of review as unbiased as possible after work tonight.

[Tacks]

In the meantime Lyion, go here and read this, may take an hour though.

http://www.fatmangames.net/News/NewsViewer.asp?newsid=1119

[Lyion]

Thanks for the Link Taxx. Amazingly that was a VERY long read, with very little actual substance.

In the meantime Lyion, go here and read this, may take an hour though.

http://www.fatmangames.net/News/NewsViewer.asp?newsid=1119

This bothers me:

Let's start with the first one. It's fun. It's a LOT of fun. Remember that magic you felt the first time you clicked with EverQuest? It's back, and it's back in huge buckets full. The first time you hear the snow crunch under your feet in Khaz Modan as your breath steams in the air, or the first time you ride a wyvern across the Barrens of Kalimdor or the first time an NPC shouts out your name, celebrating you saving the day at the end of a long quest, you'll feel that magic. WoW is not perfect, but man, it's really, really close. It's loyalty to friends that kept me still playing EQ, but many alpha players dropped EQ, DAoC or Final Fantasy like a bad habit and never looked back. Expect sleepless nights, calling in sick from work and lost weekends all over again.

WHY is it fun? This really sounds like a fanbois review, and not an unbiased one.

A quarter to a half of your experience each level will come from just the quest end rewards, much of your gear will come from them (at least initially) and if you're doing anything in WoW that moves your XP bar, odds are, you're on a quest. Unlock every single one you can find – Warcraft III style yellow exclamation points will be over their heads, while silver ones will show up on quests you can get in the next five levels. The stuff around you to fight is almost always something you can also be getting quest rewards for fighting, and not taking on these quests is pointlessly hurting your character's progress.

Ok, got it. Quests are just like the Warcraft RTS. Why are they fun? What are you doing on these quests? Is this still treadmilling to get items and exp?

The quests vary from "the local tribe of gnolls are raiding Lakeshire, I'll give you 5 silver pieces if you go kill X numbers of them to help drive them back while we wait for reinforcements from Stormwind" to "the Dragonmaw orcs are reorganizing and preparing for a military strike. We need you to sneak in to their hidden base and destroy their catapults." The quests tend to be designed around the race in the area. You'll find bickering human farmers asking you to sabotage each other's crops, dwarven brewmeisters needing help finding ingredients for a special beer they're working on, undead alchemists testing out a new plague to wipe out humanity for good this time (and the Scourge for good measure), or Taurens going on vision quests.

Amazingly this sounds like AO or SWGs quest system. Is there a storyline to these quests?

I see there is the standard classes and different races. How is this different from EQ?

There tradeskills look interesting, but is this done in a timesink format?

Folks with realistic expectations (i.e. it's still just an MMORPG, with leveling and a focus on hack-and-slash, as befits the setting) are really going to like it. The game is both more fast-paced than EQ, with a greater ability for EVERYONE to solo (although that doesn't mean that all quests are equally solo-able for all classes at all levels) and to be able to find something productive to do with 15 to 30 minutes of free time, as well as more mellow, since the consequences of failure are much, much less than in EQ.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to be repackaged EQ. Improved and with some of DAOC thrown in, and really built to be more casual friendly.

[The Kizzy]

Why dont you try it and form an opinion yourself.