NSA building massive database of phone records

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Postby Narrock » Tue May 16, 2006 5:38 pm

Darcler wrote:Over half of Americans are Christian or believe in God. It's the majority, and we all know the majority wins out in things like that (hello, gay rights).
It also isnt being forced on you. Do you honestly read every dollar bill or read your court walls? Is it hard to just leave out "Under God" when saying the pledge?

And why is our culture just now under attack? The Under God, 10 Commandments have been there a long time, and only when one person makes a stink about it, do other idiots complain also.
I'm almost willing to put money down that you had no problem until someone else had a problem with it.


Live with it and shut up like the rest of us. Like I said, majority always wins.


Wow, now I like you more than I used to. :boots:

lolz
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Postby araby » Tue May 16, 2006 6:22 pm

He also said that all of the real "hackers" work for the NSA and that the "one" referred to most of all, that could wipe out even the pentagon computers was named god. he said that they are making lasers right now that can zoom in on a person, he asked me if I thought that they knew where bin laden was and I said yes. and he asked why-

I said it's strategy..he said that they can't kill the head or it will grow more heads. and that we can't wipe it out if we don't know how it works. and that you can't find terrorism unless there is terrorism. He mentioned that our CIA trained bin laden and then he said the thing about the phone records.
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Postby Diekan » Wed May 17, 2006 1:10 am

spazz wrote:Lil late cuz i had to work
Excuse me, but aren't the liberals behind taking "In God we trust" off our currency, and banning prayer in public schools, and taking the Ten Commandments out of federal buildings because it offends some illegal alien? There's your attack on American culture pal.


No dude thats not really an attack on our culture its something you see as an attack becuase you disagree. Not everyone who lives here is a christain bro and they shouldnt have it forced on them especially in a government building. Id say our culture is under attack becuase of the freedoms and rights that are slowly disapearing.


arlos wrote:Darcler, some homework for you. Look up the term, "The tyrrany of the Majority" and the Founding Fathers' opinion of it, and how they addressed it in the Constituiton and Bill of Rights.

-Arlos


Oh what in the hell... Sinse when is "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill a form of tyrrany of the majority? No one is kicking in your front door and forcing you to attend a church at gun point. No one is requiring you show proof of worship before you can participate in anything... give it a rest already. If you don't believe in God then a picture of Jesus hanging on a wall in some public place shouldn't bother you any more than would a picture of the Easter bunny. I sware atheists are more interested in getting attention than anything else.
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Postby Drem » Wed May 17, 2006 5:00 am

it's just stupid.. if the pictures of jesus were like giant statues of buddha, all of the christians would be complaining like the non-christians are now... it's just how it goes
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Postby Markarado » Wed May 17, 2006 5:05 am

America was founded on Christian principles. If it were created on Buddhist principles America would most likely have a high population of Buddhists.
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Postby Thon » Wed May 17, 2006 6:16 am

people are indoctrinated into christianity as soon as they can walk and talk and understand the world around them. no one was born a christian other than jesus, you didn't have some innate knowledge of the bible/etc. you were taught it, back when you believed in santa and the easter bunny.

seeing "In God We Trust" on all the money, and saying "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance, and swearing on the bible is a form of indoctrination, or at least a constant reminder of christianity. i'm not saying it's a sinister bible humper conspiracy, but it is there. moreso than any other religion's views, which does irk anyone that doesn't believe in it
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Postby Narrock » Wed May 17, 2006 9:36 am

Diekan wrote:
spazz wrote:Lil late cuz i had to work
Excuse me, but aren't the liberals behind taking "In God we trust" off our currency, and banning prayer in public schools, and taking the Ten Commandments out of federal buildings because it offends some illegal alien? There's your attack on American culture pal.


No dude thats not really an attack on our culture its something you see as an attack becuase you disagree. Not everyone who lives here is a christain bro and they shouldnt have it forced on them especially in a government building. Id say our culture is under attack becuase of the freedoms and rights that are slowly disapearing.


arlos wrote:Darcler, some homework for you. Look up the term, "The tyrrany of the Majority" and the Founding Fathers' opinion of it, and how they addressed it in the Constituiton and Bill of Rights.

-Arlos


Oh what in the hell... Sinse when is "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill a form of tyrrany of the majority? No one is kicking in your front door and forcing you to attend a church at gun point. No one is requiring you show proof of worship before you can participate in anything... give it a rest already. If you don't believe in God then a picture of Jesus hanging on a wall in some public place shouldn't bother you any more than would a picture of the Easter bunny. I sware atheists are more interested in getting attention than anything else.


QFT

Atheists are a thorn in the side of most Americans.
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Postby Diekan » Wed May 17, 2006 11:15 am

what is QTF anyway?
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Postby Zanchief » Wed May 17, 2006 11:34 am

Mindia wrote:QFT

Atheists are a thorn in the side of most Americans.


Stop trolling, trolly trollerson.
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Postby Agrajag » Wed May 17, 2006 11:38 am

[quote="Mindia]Atheists are a thorn in the side of most Americans.[/quote]

As are extremist Christians force feeding their religion on society a thorn in the sides of most Atheists...
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Postby Narrock » Wed May 17, 2006 1:40 pm

Diekan wrote:what is QTF anyway?


Quoted For Truth
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Postby Eziekial » Fri May 19, 2006 11:23 am

[quote="arlos"][quote]I wish some really smart people with good ideas about how to run a country got together.[/quote]

They did, in 1789. They wrote something called The Constitution and added to it The Bill of Rights. I'm guessing you might have heard of them?

They form an admirable framework for running a country in general, though especially recently, people in power have started to ignore it entirely. Most especially Bush & his cronies in the name of "Security". Some people, like Mindia, are apparently fine with tossing the Constitution out the window. I am not.

The Constitution is, in a very real sense, America. If you ignore the Constitution and throw it out the window, you're making America into something else entirely.

I encourage you to read though the sections on Search & Siezure in the Bill of Rights. I even posted the relevant passage here. *NOWHERE* in there does it give ANY excemption for when it is or is not applied. Nowhere. I don't care if it would make us 10,000 times safer to ignore it, it MUST NOT be ignored. Period.

If fear of terrorists causes us to destroy the very underpinnings of oru society, then it can fairly be said that they have already won. I said before, and will say again: If given the choice between seeing my entire family die in a terrorist explosion and giving up the fundamental rights and freedoms guaranteed to us under the Constitution, I would pick the first option, even if I were to die in the same blast, because I wouldn't want to live in an America that is no longer free.

-Arlos[/quote]

So you're a libertarian now? Does that mean you are for gun rights and abolishing entitlement programs like social security, medicare and welfare? Do you want to see the system privatized or are you just picking and choosing the parts of the constitution that you will defend?
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Postby Eziekial » Fri May 19, 2006 11:54 am

Also, I've just skimmed through this thread due to the large number of tripe posts. Ashley has the only posts worth reading because they are based on reality. What bothers me most about the "it's ok" position is the ends justify the means mentality.
The simple truth is that this program is but a pimple on the ass that is the NSA. The size and scope of this agency and it's intrustion into your life is greater than most people can fathom possible. All in the name of security. All of it futile and most of it directed to other agencies that use it for non-security issues like tax evasion or kiddie porn. No Such Agency has had programs so many secret our Presidents didn't even know about them. Security is not a product of a free society. In truth, the opposite is true. The more freedom we want, the more we must live without safeguards and safety nets. In a truly free society, we must rely on ourselves. America was once very free and enjoyed a "golden era" but that has faded as we've moved away from the foundation spelled out in our constitution. We've attacked the very thing that made us great. We've chipped away at the rock that we've built our great house on and wonder why it's now slipping into the sea. Most of the attacks are based on some type of "need" that has gone unfilled. A need that we decided to have our government fill at the expense of the nation. Even if we all can agree that these needs are necessary, what has eluded so many is the fact that a government is the worst agent to use to meet a need. It is ineffective and inefficient. No one of intelligence argues this yet I've seen a bunch of posts in this thread argue that point. Rather than beat this horse to death, let me restate a great question that has gone largely ignored:

"How far can they go before you complain? I'm just curious what is your limit?"

Mine limit was reached before I was born. It took me awhile to realize when but we've been in sharp decline ever since that point. It was 1933.
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Postby dammuzis » Fri May 19, 2006 1:19 pm

if it helps im for the abolishment of entitelment programs... but over time since everyone on Social security now should still receive and anyone over 50 is vested already.. under 50 should get a refund and left to their own devices
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Postby Jay » Fri May 19, 2006 1:23 pm

A friend of mine who works for Verizon has had people walking in and cancelling left and right apparently. They're not giving a shit about the cancellation fee either.
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Postby Thon » Fri May 19, 2006 1:43 pm

i really, truly, and adamantly hope those assholes get sued into oblivion. there's already a 5 billion class action starting up against them.

hope they have plenty of fire resist against the skamps there :wink:
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Postby Arlos » Fri May 19, 2006 2:01 pm

So you're a libertarian now? Does that mean you are for gun rights and abolishing entitlement programs like social security, medicare and welfare? Do you want to see the system privatized or are you just picking and choosing the parts of the constitution that you will defend?


I have never had as simplistic an opinion on the country as the right-wingers in here have made me out to be. On some things I agree with the libertarians, and on others I agree with the Green party, etc. Let me answer your question first with an overall belief, then with a few specific points.

I believe that Congress has the power to enact laws for things which are not covered within the Constitution, so long as those laws do not conflict with laws that ARE in the constitution. So far as I'm aware, nothing whatsoever in the Constitution forbids entitlement programs or similar programs. Now, I freely admit it's been a number of years since I read through the thing, and I certainly could've missed it, but that's my recollection.

Now, on to some specific points:

1) Gun Ownership. Honestly, I tend to lean towards the interpretation that Article 2 was referring to the right to bear arms specifically as part of an organized militia, but I'm not rabid about it. Consequently, I do indeed believe that at least most citizens have every right to own firearms. I simply believe that, in the interest of public safety, there needs to be SOME control with regard to said ownership, to make sure that as many owners as possible are responsible owners. Also, nowhere in the Constitution does it mention the right to concealed carry, and that's something I do not support.

In any case, here are the codicils I'd like to see enacted, and honestly, I can't see how responsible owners could disagree with them:
a) No one who's been convicted of violent crimes in the past is allowed to own one, ever, period.
b) As part of purchasing a gun, you are required to pass both a written and practical safety test (preferably . Instruction classes for brand new owners could be offered at a nominal fee, akin to drivers training. Those who already know how to use them, could just take the tests and get their certificate.
c) The owner of a firearm is entirely repsonsible for that firearm as long as it is in his ownership, should any incidents occur with that gun and minors. (if it gets stolen and he reports it, obviously this wouldn't apply). What this means is that if you, say, fail to store your gun in a safe manner, and your 4 year old gets ahold of it and shoots & kills the neighbor's 4 year old, YOU are up on trial as if you'd pulled the trigger yourself. If your 18 year old takes it and holds up a liquor store, he's an adult, he's responsible, not you.


As for entitlement programs... I feel it is the duty and responsibility for any society to help take care of its less fortunate members. No, that doesn't mean people should be able to sit on the ass their entire life collecting checks, but it does mean that if someone, say, is laid off, they should be able to get enough help to get by for a while while they look for new work, or assistance in retraining their skillset if necessary. Also, there MUST be some sort of safety net for the disabled and elderly. You have, say, a 65 year old man, worked as a janitor all his life, so never could save up much money, no kids, who's small amount of savings are wiped out in an unsuccessful fight to try and save his wife's life from cancer. He's now basically broke and too old to work. You going to condemn him to living under a freeway bridge & starving? What would you have him do?

The unfortunate fact with our economy (and this is getting worse) is that vast numbers of people live paycheck to paycheck, barely making enough to scrape by, leaving nothing left over to save away for retirement. Maybe they're just not that bright, never got any skilled training for a trade or professional career, who knows. Therefore, unless we want a huge and growing number of elderly freezing to death or starving to death, there must be a safety net for them.

Likewise, I think we need a system of universal health care, such that people who actually have serious issues can go in and get seen and not have it screw them over financially for the rest of their life. I have a personal stake in this one, actually. I was within a couple days of having my left leg start going gangrenous because I was uninsured, because I'd been laid off and couldn't afford insurance payments, and thus didn't go in to a doctor. Turned out I had a massive staph infection, and I literally spent > 1 week in the hospital hooked to IVs with the one of the most potent antibiotics in existance before they got it under control. (Trust me, seeing your entire leg half again as big as normal, and literally oozing pus from everywhere is not at all fun. Had to give me morphine, the pain was so bad.) I lucked into a program for the uninsured that covered most of my costs, but it still ran me several thousand dollars I just didn't have, and am STILL paying it back, slowly, but not fast enough to keep my credit rating from getting screwed. (I'm living on student loans & financial aid, so rather limited funds right now).

If we'd had universal health care, I would've gone in much much earlier, would've required little to no hospital time, and I wouldn't have that bill hanging over my head. I'm just one example, there's numerous others where it'd cost society less to have health care for everyone in place, as preventive medicine is WAY cheaper than the alternative.

BTW, lets I be accused of not putting my money where my mouth is: yes, I would happily have seen my taxes rise when I was working if it meant seeing all that enacted. Once I'm back in the industry again, and making the kind of money I used to, I'd once again be happy to do so again, were it an option.

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Postby Spazz » Fri May 19, 2006 3:29 pm

nowhere in the Constitution does it mention the right to concealed carry, and that's something I do not support.


So you dont think people have the right to defend themselves arlos ?
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Postby Arlos » Fri May 19, 2006 3:42 pm

It's more of a safety issue. I don't like the idea of Joe Cowboy-Wannabe misinterpreting 2 friends playfighting as a mugging, and blowing one of them away, or shooting at a real criminal but missing and taking out a 4 year old, or one of those idiot drunks at bars who start bar fights having a real weapon on him and shooting someone over a spilled drink when they "step outside", etc.

Hell, even if you HAVE a gun on you, if a robber pulled one on you first, you'd be a (likely a soon-to-be-dead) moron to try and pull yours to "protect yourself," as he could shoot you long before you got yours out. Also, it gives someone else a chance to steal the gun, etc. etc. etc.

Ultimately, no. Entirely too many negative potential issues to be supportive of what ultimately is likely to be far more an illusion of protection than any actual protection. You want to keep a gun at home for protection, by all means, feel free. Though, I'd suggest a shotgun with medium to small shot, as it's easier to aim, will do more damage, and missed rounds won't fly through walls and take out family members over any pistol you can name. (not to mention, the shick-clack of a shotgun slide is an intimidating enough sound to make most potential criminals think twice and get out of your house in a real big hurry, resulting in no risky confrontation.)

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Postby Spazz » Fri May 19, 2006 4:05 pm

Thats a lot of criminal impowerment bs arlos. Shame on you i usually think your one of the brightest stars the nt has to offer.
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Postby Darcler » Fri May 19, 2006 4:25 pm

So because he thinks realisticly, it's BS?

Give me a break.
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Postby Harrison » Fri May 19, 2006 5:51 pm

Most 9mm won't travel through walls. (that's why swat uses the 9mm MP5 in hostage situations)

That being said, a 9mm won't have the stopping power of a .40 or a .45
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Postby Arlos » Fri May 19, 2006 6:15 pm

I dunno, a lot of newer homes with just a couple thin panels of sheetrock around open wood framing? I think a 9mm would fly right through that like it wasn't even there. Hell, I saw a .22 rifle round fired from a goodly distance away go right through an exterior wall, glance off a table leg, fly out the other side of the table (where my brother, who was 3 at the time had been standing not 15 seconds before... he'd have taken it in the chest if my mom hadn't have picked him up to put him in his high chair), then go through a 1/2" solid wood cabinet wall before falling into a colander.

Was at my grandmother's house back in the 70s, and where she lived was up in Grass Valley, CA which was (and still is) a reasonably rural area. Some local kids had gotten .22's as presents and were being idiots with them, and one of them fired off a round while the gun was pointed towards the house. As I said, they were a ways off, too, couple hundred yards, at least, probably further.

So, if a dinky little .22 round from a goodly way off can fly right through that much crap, methinks a typical standard-load jacketed 9mm round won't even slow down much when it hits those thin sheetrock panels. I'd be willing to bet the special forces types carry special rounds designed to shatter when they hit anything more solid than flesh, which'd go miles towards preventing rounds blowing through walls.

So, Spazz, does my little brother coming within literally 20 seconds of getting killed when he was 3 or 4 explain why I have no tolerance for idiots with firearms, and a low opinion of the capabilities of the average person who'd want to carry them? And hell, I have a good friend who had to give up alcohol cause of how he got when he was drunk. He's into the SCA, and a really nice guy, would give a friend the shirt off his back. Sober. Drunk, he can get belligerant as fuck. He got kicked out of his apartment complex, and ultimately fired from his job, when he was drunk at home one time, the downstairs neighbor pissed him off, and he went after the guy's door frame with a broadsword.

You see people like that all the time at bars: OK sober, belligerant as hell drunk. Sorry, but I don't think it's empowering criminals to not be cool with the concept that someone like that may or may not be packing, and could turn around and blow someone's head off for reasons that only make sense to his drunken self. That and pistols aren't exactly the most accurate of weapons (at least for most of us). I just feel the public safety risk is too high of people missing and hitting an unintended target, especially since they likely WON'T have had police/military training, and won't be as good at making sure their shooting lanes are clear.

You did notice that I said that you should keep whatever you want to at home, right? The bit about the shotgun was my personal suggestion for effectiveness, not saying not to own handguns, etc. If you want to own them, by all means, feel free. I had friends in my first go-around in college with them, and I had my dad's old 12 gauge. (I know one person had a baretta, someone else had a Taurus (baretta knockoff), and I think the 3rd guy had a S&W 9mm) Went to college out in Walla Walla, Washington, and lots of the farmers out there didn't care if you went to unused bits of their land and did some target shooting, as long as you were careful about downrange targets. So, we'd mail order paper targets, set 'em up on big sheets of plywood and go out target shooting on occasion. Was funny as hell to let them hit the targets a few times, put a few small holes here and there, then walk up and obliterate a huge chunk of target with a shotgun blast or 2.

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Postby Jay » Fri May 19, 2006 6:40 pm

I've read all kinds of statistics on gun ownership and there's no consistant statistic for either side. Some places more guns = less crime and in other places the exact opposite and all that stuff. I think we have a right to own guns in our homes for sure and I'm undecided on conceal and carry.
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Postby Harrison » Fri May 19, 2006 6:45 pm

.22 has a higher muzzle velocity than a 9mm

I'll look up statistics if you want them.
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