State of Minnesota government shuts down tonight

[10sun]

Markarado, who did you last vote for?

What makes you think you can call yourself a conservative other than liberals see through your bullshit and don't want you?

[KaiineTN]

Our government's role is to not feed starving children. That is a role that should be left up to us as individuals acting compassionately and charitably by our own desire to do so. Will some people who have plenty to give refuse to help? Sure. Does that justify reaching into their wallets and playing Robin Hood? No.

Do you have such little faith in humanity that you don't think we'll take care of each other if our government makes it clear that the responsibility to do so rests upon us?

[Spazz]

Do you have such little faith in humanity that you don't think we'll take care of each other if our government makes it clear that the responsibility to do so rests upon us?

I wouldnt say my faith is humanity is that low I just live in the real world and see and read about a million examples of human nature every day. I see people who think atlas shrugged is the new bible, people like you who bitch about taxes going to people in need an I would stake my life on it that if we got rid of these taxes and systems we have in place children and geezers would starve in the street.

Heres the thing dude I hate taxes as much as anyone. That is money I could have used to chill at the strip club, fix my car , buy magic cards or blow on other toys. Im ok with not having those toys because I know to some folks that tax money is life or death ( medicine starving keeping the heat on etc).

In a perfect world no one would starve, everyone would work and make responsible decisions and we would all have everything we want. I accept that the world I live in is never going to be perfect. I also accept that there will be flaws and abuse in any complicated system with tons of people in it but for the most part the people who get assistance really need it to get by and are working class folk down on they luck, have a deadbeat dad or just really fucked up when they were young.

Now like Ive said a million times talkin to you you come across as a clueless ron paul slogan chanter. I dont mean that as a dis either im trying to be civil but I find talking to someone and knowing where they come from helps me to understand they point of view a lot better. Thats why I always ask you what you do for a living and what your life is like. I think your views that you have expressed look great in books and on paper but to implement them into real life would be a total disaster.

I propose that you and I start a new conversation right here so we can understand each other and you can see where im coming from.

My name is Christopher. Im 29(almost) years old. I have no family other than my sister who is not close to me at all. I live in a racially mixed neighborhood of poor and working class folks west of Detroit. The area I live in has been hit very hard by the trouble in the economy. I used to work as a security guard at a horse racing track but I lost my job and am having a hard time finding a non minimum wage job. I am on unemployment and food stamps and if i wasnt I would lose my home or be a very hungry boy.Most of the folks that live around me are in the same boat. I believe that policies favoring the rich , non stop war and free trade is what has brought our country to the point it is at now. I have some college exp and I am an atheist.

Thats a little bit about me to help you understand where I come from and why I feel the way I do about things. Im not the best typer in the world but i try to keep things real when i get in a discussion with someone.

[brinstar]

^^^^^^^

the ownest post on NT in months

[KaiineTN]

Okay then...

My name is Charlie. I'm 26 years old. My only close family is my Mother. I live in a Minneapolis suburb. I majored in Computer Science and am a very active investor--that is all I will say about the nature of my work.

I grew up thinking I was a Democrat. All of my cousins and their families are very liberal. I liked Democrats. They seemed like good people, people that genuinely wanted to help others. I don't doubt that many are and do. It was during Ron Paul's 2008 campaign that I discovered I didn't fit in with that crowd, and that I was a strong fiscal conservative. It's not that I don't share an equal desire to help others, I just realized that I don't support using government force as a means to help one group at the expense of another. It was social conservatism that made me reject Republicans while growing up, and it is the reason why there are to this day very few Republicans that I like.

I also believe bad policy deserves the blame for the situation we find ourselves in. I do believe Ron Paul is right when he targets the Federal Reserve as a source of many of our problems, as well as central economic planning in general. We can blame Congress all we want, but without the Fed enabling them, Congress would be forced to be more fiscally responsible. Without the Fed manipulating interest rates, the housing bubble, and indeed even the dot com bubble, would not have been able to grow as devastatingly large as they did.

I believe that profit and loss are the essential factors that make Capitalism work, and that problems arose when the government took steps to mitigate losses and reduce risk rather than allowing the market to perform those functions. Without fear of loss keeping investors in check, greed is indeed allowed to run rampant.

I strongly believe these sayings to be correct:

You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You can't help the poor by destroying the rich.
You can't build sound security on borrowed money.
You can't build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independance.
You can't help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.

At the end of the day, I am a strongly anti-war fiscal conservative.

That is where I'm coming from.

[Spazz]

The thing is that a few people have all the food right now and it leaves a lot out starving if you know what I mean. The laws and the rules favor those with wealth and make it much harder for a man to come up from the bottom.

Ron Paul also speaks a lot on privatization. There are a lot of problems with that little word. Police for profit as an idea scares the shit out of me as does fire depts. Health care is another big one if you cant afford it at its private prices your pretty screwed. Another big one id like you think about is war. Why is it so profitable to go to war and is that private companies manipulating the situation to make big bucks?

Getting rid of the minimum wage is another cause ive heard you speak on and I dont think you have thought through. Companies would pay people cents on the dollar without regulations on that.

It sounds really nice to say a man should do everything for himself but the reality is the game is rigged. I know so many guys that are in need of a job at this moment but cant find one should we let them starve? I know people that had good jobs and now barely make ends meet should we toss them out on the streets because free trade policies make it so they can pay someone acros the globe next to nothing?

I am a socialist. I belive that the people of a country should protect themselves from cheep labor with tariffs and should unionize to make sure that they see a share of the profits that they create. I think your ideas would ruin our country futher and crush even more people. As an investor I am not shocked that you feel strongly about the things that you do but those policies and ideas dont help working class folks a whole lot.

I also dont see why your so afraid to say that you dont work for a living you invest and play the market at least thats honest.

[Arlos]

What is inarguable though, Flink, is that this country has been at it's best and most prosperous when the middle class was strongest, and those were generally times with a lot MORE taxes and what you'd call wealth-redistribution.

Remember, the 50s, when economically we were at our peak relative tot he rest of the world, the top tax rate was over 90%. Yes, that's right, 90%.

Even in 83 under Reagan, the top tax rate was 50%, and it only took making 50-55k to reach the top bracket.

Now, I am by no means calling for a tax rate of 90% again, but LOOK at what the last decade has brought us: A super-wealthy class that continues to amass a greater and greater percentage of total wealth in the country, with a larger and larger gap between themselves and everyone else. The middle class is DYING.

Hell, do a little research, and look at what the tax rates were for Clinton's 8 years, and look at the job creation numbers from across his 8 years as well. Then look at Bush's tax rates, and HIS job creation numbers. As a short cut, I'll give you the gist, but look it up anyway: Tax rates under Clinton were higher across the board, yet (if I am remembering my numbers right), he saw 150 TIMES as many jobs created as were created under Bush.

Lower tax rates are NOT the answer to spurring job growth. There is NO correlation between them. That is a false premise with no evidence whatsoever to support it. Period.

-Arlos

PS: Mark, show me where I've made a single personal attack on anyone, in any thread?

[KaiineTN]

Spazz, getting rid of the minimum wage would create tons of new jobs. Yes, they would be low paying shit jobs, but it would be a place for people to get started, and are you going to tell me that isn't preferable to having them sit on their asses collecting unemployment or welfare for years? That you're entitled to earn x amount of money per hour simply because you're American? Many people don't have the skills to justify paying them minimum wage. It's not just the wage either, there are the employer's contributions to social security, the employer liability risks-- there are all sorts of costs incurred when hiring an employee beyond what you pay them. Minimum wage is a minor side issue though, it is not something that I'd bring to the forefront of debate. There are far more important issues.

I don't think I've ever heard Ron Paul talking about privatizing anything that is handled at the state level, such as Police and Fire departments. He has talked about getting rid of the TSA and allowing airports to handle their own security though, and I would support that.

In healthcare, we only need to make our system more like cosmetic surgery or Lasik. The quality of those procedures has consistently risen while the prices have consistently declined. Why? Because the government has minimal interference and insurance companies typically do not cover the procedures. People have to shop around. Insurance should return to its original intention, to cover the big things, not every little checkup and drug you don't really need. We need to address malpractice lawsuits too and make sure that when people are victims that they get the compensation, not the lawyers. If we can remove some of the fear of being sued from doctors minds, maybe they wouldn't feel compelled to run every test in the book and run up the costs.

War, yes, war is the health of the state. The military industrial complex makes absurd amounts of money during war time, and they are powerful enough to have significant political influence. Not only that, but it is easier to get new laws and regulations passed during war time, like the Patriot Act, and for that reason, both parties enjoy the perks of war. It is pathetic that Obama was perceived as the anti-war candidate last time around, and then as soon as he won, all the anti-war liberals just shut up and let Obama expand the war in his own way.

[Spazz]

Yes being american does entitle you to a basic wage if you work. The idea is the minimum livable wage. If there was no minimum it would create slave labor jobs for desperate people as well as drive down other wages. I do not and will not support any policy that i feel takes us closer to a 2 class society.

We could go back and forth all afternoon but the bottom line is that I do not agree with you and I think history supports my ideas. You want to know what no regulations and no minimum wage looks like go back and look at what was going on during the turn of the century. Youve got child labor, unsafe working conditions, fucked up working hours and so on.

ANother one i hear the paul clan talk of is getting rid of the civil rights act and a private buis should be allowed to discriminate against who ever they want. That is insane. In a major city it prolly wouldnt have to much of an effect but in rural areas and in parts of the south I can see that making life harder for some people. Bottom line on that is you shouldnt need a law to tell you not to be a dick but you know how people get.

A last thing I want to say about history. We already had an event that decided if states can do whatever the fuck they feel like and it was a very bad time in american history and id rather not lay the groundwork to see it happen again. We also have already done this with civil rights and id rather go forward not backward. AND we have also done it with workers rights and they are already being butchered and i would rather slow the process down or stop it than speed it up. With all these issues you feel so strongly about history is not on your side.

We used to tax the rich a lot and america prospered.
We used to have strong unions and good wages and america prospered.
We used to protect our jobs and our industry in the states... you guessed it we prospered.
We used to let each state do as it pleased and he had a very nasty war.
We used to let people be as racist as they wanted i suggest watching some old civil rights marches to see how that went.


Are you seeing the pattern or does it not fit your world view and leave you blind.

We are going backwards in time because people have forgotten they history and forsaken they neighbors. Were becoming a 2 class society with the haves having it all and everyone else having to struggle to stay above water.

Now heres a quote I strongly believe and history since the beginning of civilization supports me on this. Desperate people have been known to do desperate deeds. Do you think increasing the number of desperate people makes us a safer, more free , smarter and more healthy civilization ?

[KaiineTN]

Our very government is lowering the minimum wage every damn day they inflate the money supply. Why aren't you raging against that? Inflation hurts the poor and middle class more than anything else. I am assuming you understand the concept of earning the same amount of money, but that same amount of money's purchasing power has declined because of additional money being put in circulation. That is literally stealing purchasing power from every American, and increasing their cost of living.

Anyways, if I own a business, I have the right to hire whoever I want based on my sole discretion.

If the business is owned by a number of people, like a corporation, I do not have a right to act on behalf of the many owners and discriminate.

What's wrong with that?

Theoretically, if I say hey, sorry, you're a woman and I think a man can do a better job, am I a dick? Yeah. What if my employee comes to me and says hey, sorry, I'd rather work for a woman than a man, I quit, are they a dick? Sure, but it is within their rights to think and act accordingly. I don't believe you sacrifice those rights by becoming an employer.

I'm of the opinion that things like the civil rights act, and anything collectivist in nature that puts people into groups, breeds resentment of what the group is able to collectively achieve on behalf of its members. In other words, it allows racism, sexism, and whatever else to persist. This is why I favor individualism over collectivism. We are all individuals and we all have equal rights as individuals. We do not get our rights because we belong to a group. There are no gay rights. There are no black's rights. There are no women's rights. There are only individual rights.

[Spazz]

The buying power of americans is effected by inflation but that isnt the major problem. The problem is good jobs are leaving the country , and the the average wage is staying the same while wages at the top continue to rise. People are paid badly and the economy is suffering because the wages are not rising with the cost of everything else.

The money made by labor isnt going to the workers its going to the shareholders and the ceos.

And your solution is to pay people even less. Youve got to be fucking kidding me.

Your flat out wrong in what you believe but i do understand why you want to believe it.

Anyways, if I own a business, I have the right to hire whoever I want based on my sole discretion.

If the business is owned by a number of people, like a corporation, I do not have a right to act on behalf of the many owners and discriminate.

What's wrong with that?

Whats wrong with that is that people deserve a fair chance at being successful . People deserve to compete with each other on even ground and that if a corperation doesnt benifit society as a whole it shouldnt be allowed to exist.

[KaiineTN]

All legit businesses exist because they improve society as a whole. Consumers do not purchase a business's products or services unless they value them at or higher than their cost, therefore they believe they are benefiting from the transaction.

Yes, people do deserve to compete on level ground, where things like race and gender don't factor in to the equation. That is my whole point when I say individual rights. However, it is within an individual's rights to reject that notion, and being an employer rather than an employee doesn't change that. People aren't perfect, and you can't legislate morality, all you can do is lead by example and let your money talk. Don't support businesses that you think are treating people unfairly or poorly.

Workers have no right to share in the profits they help to create. Some companies certainly may offer profit sharing, bonuses, and other incentives, but it is not a right. Employees are hired to do a job for set compensation. You sound like the guy that was the voice actor for Niko Bellic in GTA4 bitching about how the game was so successful and he didn't become a millionaire off it. Seriously? You are hired to do a job and you agree to the compensation for it. If the job you do adds more value to the company than the cost of your employment, then the business makes a profit. That profit is theirs, not yours. Likewise, if the job you do doesn't add enough value and the business suffers losses, that loss is theirs, not yours.

[Spazz]

Workers have no right to share in the profits they help to create. Some companies certainly may offer profit sharing, bonuses, and other incentives, but it is not a right

And that my friend is a big reason why our country is in the sad stat it finds itself. That is why greed is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Your solution to the problems we face sounds to me like pay workers even less and share holders even more.

I think you have read atlas shrugged one too many times and havent spent enough time seeing how these policies we have in place effect every day folks. If something is good for the few but bad for the many than it is a bad thing.

Walmart is a good example of this. Yes they sell cheap goods but ...... they force out local shops in the cities they are in , force they suppliers to make they goods in sweat shops over seas , make a huge profit every year and pay they workers like shit. In return walmart has happy shareholders but i would say the bad outweighs the good.

I go both ways on the individual. Sure things that benefit the individual are great but if they do it at the cost of the community then they become not so great.

Greed is killing our country and it seems you want to speed up the process.

What % of people in our country really have to be done and out before we see major civil unrest? If we get to that point who will the anger be directed at ? The policies you favor may make you richer in the short term but it is a suicide pact for our country.

What i am reading between the lines from you is I GOT MINE AND FUCK EVERYONE ELSE and to me that is no way to live a life or think of your neighbors.

A nation of lords and serfs is what I hear you proposing and history has already shown us time and again how that turns out. I would rather see things get better than worse player. I have no apatite for another civil war or a french revolution style revolt. My greatest fear isnt america going bankrupt its that things will get so bad in our life times that violence will break out. A 2 class society is a very good way to get that ball rolling. Im already seeing a lot of anger that I think is unhealthy. Im seeing with my own 2 eyes racisms coming out of the woodwork.We have 2 political parties that cant even come together and agree on what reality is let alone come up with a compromise to try to fix it. The problems in our country just grow and grow with no end in sight and no matter wich side you lean to you know things are totally fucked. How long can things go on like this before the anger overflows and people start to lash out? Do you really think that making the community poorer so that a few individuals can become richer is going to help our country or is that just going to help?

I gotta be real with you I am trying to be civil in talking to you but I think you sound like an ass.

[Drem]

What i am reading between the lines from you is I GOT MINE AND FUCK EVERYONE ELSE and to me that is no way to live a life or think of your neighbors.

A nation of lords and serfs is what I hear you proposing and history has already shown us time and again how that turns out. I would rather see things get better than worse player. I have no apatite for another civil war or a french revolution style revolt. My greatest fear isnt america going bankrupt its that things will get so bad in our life times that violence will break out. A 2 class society is a very good way to get that ball rolling. Im already seeing a lot of anger that I think is unhealthy. Im seeing with my own 2 eyes racisms coming out of the woodwork.We have 2 political parties that cant even come together and agree on what reality is let alone come up with a compromise to try to fix it. The problems in our country just grow and grow with no end in sight and no matter wich side you lean to you know things are totally fucked. How long can things go on like this before the anger overflows and people start to lash out? Do you really think that making the community poorer so that a few individuals can become richer is going to help our country or is that just going to help?

I gotta be real with you I am trying to be civil in talking to you but I think you sound like an ass.

the problem with politicians and people like flink is that they don't understand what it's like to not have money. and therefore, they should never make decisions that hurt people that don't have it. but they always, always do. because they just have no clue. at all. they think it's as simple as "living within your means" and i'd love to find someone that could actually support themselves on minimum wage @ 40 hrs a week and not be eating ramen and watching public television. the sheer amount of people wanting to get rich doesn't equate to the amount of jobs available to do so. so your whole logic is just flawed. we can't all be investors, we can't all be CEOs, we can't all make millions. so why would you willingly hurt the people that play the "warm body" role for big corporations that have no real chance of ever succeeding like the people above them? you kick down a little to your helpers to keep them happy and then everybody's happy, right? right now only the rich are happy. everything's raisin but the wages.... not how it should be imo

good jobs here are like diamonds in the rough, and in our current economic climate i don't think anyone really feels 100% secure about what they're doing or where they might be in 10 or 20 years. something i seriously doubt the working class of the '50s had to worry about

[KaiineTN]

I honestly don't know how to debate someone who doesn't think that a business owner has the right to the profits his business earns.

Why would anyone start a business if they had to split any earnings with their employees? Why would anyone hire additional employees if everyone has to give them a cut of their own paychecks?

I have never directly employed anyone, but I have outsourced/contracted work before, and that works the same way. I find someone capable of doing what i need done, they give me their rate, we agree. They do the work, they get paid at the agreed rate. You propose I pay them at the agreed rate AND give them a portion of the income (if any) I generate using their work that I already paid for? To me, that's absurd.

If you pay people to renovate your house, then sell the house at a higher market value, do you split your profits with them? That is basically what you're arguing in favor of.

[Spazz]

Im not saying you cant make a profit. Im saying that the higher the profit the higher the worlers should be paid.

Unions , profit sharing and better contracts is what im saying. Less greed is what im saying. I think a great labor law would be that the highest paid person in any company can only make a certain % more than the lowest. I want to see people working and spending money not all of our countries wealth get stagnated at the top.

Here lemme break it down. Anyone who is a worker bee should be unionized from wendys employees to teachers and so on .

High tariffs should be put into place to help promote jobs in our homeland and protect us from slave labor across the pond.

People should be taxed according to they incomes. High taxes for high incomes low taxes for low incomes.

That is just a start of what i think this country needs to get back on track.

Im not against people making a profit or against people being wealthy I am against blatant greed and i am against the current systems in place that shuffle all of our ocuntries wealth into the hands of a few.

I also think that we should not do prisons , health care and schools for profit, That we hsould close Every foreign military base and stop fighting and spending truckloads of cash on endless wars. I think foreign aid should also be extremely limited and that serious immigration reform should be put into place. I think we need to stop thinking about the rest of the world and focus our resources on our home country.

Im not a communist and I take offense that you would go down that road sure you didnt say the word but I feel it is what you implied. As I said im not against profits at all but I think its past time that workers in this country see their fair share of the profits that their labor creates. I feel that i am a patriot and a proud american and I feel shamed by the indifference that we show for one another. i feel shame in what I feel our country is becoming and I feel shame at how selfish people have become. We never would have made it this far as a country if our fore fathers thought ME ME ME instead of WE.

[Drem]

I honestly don't know how to debate someone who doesn't think that a business owner has the right to the profits his business earns.

Why would anyone start a business if they had to split any earnings with their employees? Why would anyone hire additional employees if everyone has to give them a cut of their own paychecks?

I have never directly employed anyone, but I have outsourced/contracted work before, and that works the same way. I find someone capable of doing what i need done, they give me their rate, we agree. They do the work, they get paid at the agreed rate. You propose I pay them at the agreed rate AND give them a portion of the income (if any) I generate using their work that I already paid for? To me, that's absurd.

If you pay people to renovate your house, then sell the house at a higher market value, do you split your profits with them? That is basically what you're arguing in favor of.

hey you can be as greedy and selfish as you want to if that's your MO. just don't expect to ever have any solid employees that actually want to work for you if that's your attitude

if you had any real world experience working a job that isn't clicking shit on computers, you'd understand. if my boss didn't give me free beers and tips and bonuses and free food i probably wouldn't work there. the businesses that are the most successful take care of their own, in the service industry anyway. my old catering company was run by people like you and they have complete turnover every 4 months because they think they can get away with paying people minimum wage to do a pretty demanding job, won't give you any of the gratuity, and basically won't give you anything except water to drink. the way they treat you then, isn't much better than slavery, paying you just what they're legally required to or you know they'd go lower. and if they could go lower, they would, just to make a profit. then the walk thru the events saying "it's been a great year guys, keep up the good work". such a fucking joke

it's selfish. you can argue it away all you want but that's the reality of it. i guarantee you that's how the people you're fucking over will feel whenever you get around to owning a business and run it the way you talk about here. they're gonna steal from you, slander you, and laugh at you. you'll have a few years of profit before you realise you can't keep a steady staff. all the turnover and retraining in the end clogs the business up and you start losing money. not to mention all the people getting unemployment off of you because your turnover is so ridiculous

your ideals are noble, just like marx's, but they assume that people aren't human. if you have a system that can be abused, it will be

[Drem]

and just to continue a little, spazz reiterated what i meant. if you make more profit, your workers should make more money. it doesn't have to be proportionate, it doesn't even have to be cold hard cash, but if people work at a place they know is making millions and they're still making $10/hr and not getting any benies or any gratuity from the fucking $15,000 weddings we catered, they're gonna get pissed and quit. and that becomes a never-ending cycle. your new employees wanna know why the turnover's so bad, the other employees (the "lifers") start telling about how corrupt and greedy the owners are, then the new people quit four days later or at their first personal witnessing of how one-sided the business really is

don't be a greedy fuck. your business will fail. period. unless you work for yourself and yourself alone, then be as greedy as you want /shrug

at my work our purveyors give us free food because they like us, because we respect them and they respect us for helping them make so much money by burning thru their product. so yeah, it'd be like, if those people that remodeled your house were your friends and you sold it for a shit ton of money you should probably take em out for beers. it's the little things that count. and from what you write, you don't get that at all

some people don't have the opportunity to invest and turn profit. i can't drop $50k into Ninkasi like my boss did and become a multi millionaire in five years. but since he did, and he knows he's really fucking lucky, he hooks his friends up. shit he just took my girlfriend and i camping with his hard-earned profit money. he bought all the food, all the weed, all the beer, all the liquor, everything. i didn't have to buy or bring anything and i didn't even ask. and because he did that, i'm gonna work twice as hard for him. that's just the way the world works, man, i don't know how to explain things this simple to you and i have no idea why i'm writing such a long response but i feel it's all just part of being human. i couldn't understand just keeping it all for me. that makes no sense to me. it takes a lot of people in a lot of different ways to make a business successful. not kicking back to those other sources is just ridiculous to me

[Drem]

hopefully in before you misunderstand me: no, i don't think anything should be there to "force" you to kick back to your employees, that's why there's no such thing anyways

i'm a-political, so conservative this liberal that means nothing to me. i just think people should be happy. what's the point of going thru life miserable? thankfully, most people feel that way, and, despite the current economy, will always quit a shitty job run by shitty greedy douchebags. i just really want you to know that because it's absolutely true

maybe i'm misunderstanding your ideals here, and if i am i'm sorry, but you sound like a corrupt businessman in the making from all of your writing so far

[Markarado]

The owners of any given business are taking a risk to gain profit. Employees are not. What you're arguing for is close to communism.

P.S. Arlos I would exempt you from that list as well. I respect you and your position due to the way you bring it to the board and your attitude doing so.

[10sun]

The government is protecting their ability to have a business in the United States.

Do you know why we still have a manufacturing base located in the United States?

Also, who did you vote for last Markarado?

[Drem]

The owners of any given business are taking a risk to gain profit. Employees are not. What you're arguing for is close to communism.

please explain how what i said is close to communism in any way. especially the part where i said i don't think any of this should be forced, i just think it's smart for the owner and it's proven time and time again. believe whatever you want, use your big scary words to try to make me look like a commie bastard, try to run a business where you take all the profit. see how your employees like you then. lemme know how it works out for you

also i suggest you stop looking at this thru polarized political lenses and think simply of the relationship between hard work and incentive. this isn't rocket science

[brinstar]

You want to know what no regulations and no minimum wage looks like ... child labor, unsafe working conditions, fucked up working hours and so on.

mexico

[Zanchief]

Our government's role is to not feed starving children.

Says who? You? Then don't vote for a socialist. The role of the government is determined by the people who vote for elected officials. I, for one, think the role of the government is to feed starving children. The role of the government is to ensure the prosperity of the country and the people which it governs, and it cannot achieve this goal under an immoral objectivist society which you yearn for.

[KaiineTN]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repeal Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;—And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Nothing about starving children in there. If you claim the general welfare clause, you're wrong. All the heading of Section 8 says is that Congress can "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" in order to fulfill the responsibilities that follow.