hurricane sandy

[brinstar]

LOOK AT ALL THESE GREEDY UNION THUGS

seriously, fuck anyone who's anti-union, i hope your house burns down

[Zanchief]

I must have missed everything. Whats going on in NYC? Floods? Weird.

[Harrison]

Lol unions...

[leah]

DOGGIE. also this hurricane is bananas. so worried for all the people injured or displaced.

[Tossica]

Lol unions...

Lol, ignorance...

[Arlos]

While I think unions are vitally important things, in the interest of fairness I must admit that some unions do abuse their power and positions, especially on the East Coast. Back when I was at Oracle, they regularly had a trade convention in Philadelphia, so obviously they needed a full network setup to run the show. So, 2-3 people from my group would get sent out there to make sure that everything got set up properly. Now, these are the same people that would set up everything here for Oracle's main show, Oracle OpenWorld, and get it done in a day or two of hard work, including all the equipment, cabling, etc. In Philly, though, cabling HAD to be done by union workers, period. If we cabled anything, we'd find that someone had come in when no one else was around and snipped cable ends off, etc. thus wrecking everything. The problem was, the unions would take easily 2x as long to cable up everything as we would have needed to do it ourselves, and cost a lot more besides.

It's THAT kind of thing that gets unions bad reputations with everyone else. The problem is, how do you reign in that kind of behavior, while maintaining the union's useful attributes, in letting groups of individuals stand up to large companies when it comes to wages or working conditions. I don't have an answer to that question. Wish I did.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Yeah, unions are overpaid pieces of vindictive shit.

[ClakarEQ]

You're way off Harri. That's easy for you to say at your age, or maybe the industry you're in. Don't be a hater because a bad apple screws something up. Don't be jealous because you want what they have, be it pay, protection, etc. You don't see the press on the good work unions do because that isn't "news". I've had my own negative experiences with unions and I'm not so foolish to recognize why they act poorly at times.

They are forced into the us vs them role. They see all the lavish spend corp execs do, the pay discrepancy being nearly at an all time high, the company is built upon the backs of its workers.

They CAN tell the boss to fuck off when he tells them to jump. They are the ones that empower a lot of other workers, including non-union. If unions went away it would be bad for every working class citizen.

I think if you (the GOV) says you're going to do sometihng, like pay someone a certain amount, or provide a retirement fund, etc. then you best fucking do it. You best save and act fiscally to deal with the promise you've made.

How pissed off would any of us be if the boss came into your cube, office, etc and said, "Yeah, so you know that 401k thing, well all that funding the company contributed has to come back out, along with the intrest, etc". Just makeing the point of, if you're promissed something by someone, shouldn't that someone be held accountable vs you suffering because of their poor planning, investing, etc?

[Harrison]

You're not going to convince me otherwise by any anecdotal "omg unions are just out there to protect you" bullshit.

I've seen it for myself how corrupt these unnecessary groups of greedy slobs push their way around here.

90% of unions are unnecessary in 2012, period. There's laws against child labor, unsafe working conditions, etc.

We don't need unions to artificially inflate wages, benefits, and buy politicians.

[brinstar]

so naive

[Tossica]

Yeah! Who needs living wages and benefits! Finawin is not only stupid, he's proud of his stupidity! Yay, America!

[brinstar]

lol toss if there was one single greatest evil i could point out in modern america it would be "militant ignorance"


a corporation is a manmade construct with one single solitary purpose: maximize profits by any means necessary. it will viciously fuck its workers, their families, its customers, THEIR families, its environment (not just civic but natural), its local/state/national officials, and any other corporations at the drop of a hat if it means gaining a fraction of a cent for its investors/owners. public entities are no exception, but the rules are slightly different - replace "profit" with "lower taxes" and replace investors/owners with elected officials and taxpayers.

it's easy to sneer at unions NOW, when you have grown up used to such hard-won achievements as child labor laws, 40-hour work weeks, overtime, minimum wage laws, OSHA laws, etc - but you're a fucking dolt if you think corporations wouldn't set a torch to all those things given half a chance. why do you think so many jobs have been offshored?

as with anything, there are negative aspects to unions, i will agree - but to think "we don't need them anymore" is not only stupid, it's sad. perhaps you should join a union instead of whining about them like a bitch

[Arlos]

If anyone doubts the important things unions can do, I suggest googling "Triangle Shirtwaist Fire" and think about how far we've come since then, none of which would have happened if it wasn't for unions.

Again, however, we still need to find SOME method of reigning in abuses BY unions, not just abuses unions are trying to stop. Denying the importance of either side ignores the fundamental tenets of the issue, imho.

-Arlos

[Jay]

There's good unions, there's bad unions. What's so hard to understand? Unions are run by PEOPLE. Some people suck. Some people are awesome. Why does anyone feel the need to say all of them are this way or that way. It's kinda retarded. The purpose of a Union is for workers to come together and stand for one another so that corporations don't take advantage of them unfairly. In order for a union to operate, it needs money to stand and support itself. Some people take that idea and use it to cash out. Others use it for the right reason, to fund their unions and protect its members.

[Tossica]

Right on, Jay.

[Tikker]

.

[Narrock]

Lol unions...

Seriously, fuck unions. I voted yes on prop 32 here in Cali.

[Tossica]

What a surprise.

[Narrock]

Prop 32 limits the power and influence unions have on government. This prop is exactly what we need.

[Jay]

And increases the power corporations have on government.

[Narrock]

And increases the power corporations have on government.

Propaganda. And even if that were semi-true, I'd rather corporations have that power than the union thugs. Anyone who believes the negative hype on prop 32 is ignorant.

[Jay]

This'll be the last time I even bother touching your flame bait but for the sake of boredom I'll bite. Here's what you need to understand about Prop 32 and "union thugs". Let's assume for a moment that all unions are totally 100% fraudulent.

Corporations and unions don't get to make political contributions anymore, great, but big businesses still do. With unions and corporations out of the way, major political contributions would come from Wall Street firms, hedge funds, insurance companies, LLC's, housing trusts and other large, technically non corporate structures. Those guys making every decision is why we are where we are in the first place.

The other thing prop 32 supposedly does is stop unions and corporations alike from contributing money to political groups and candidates that was collected from our wages. Again, that sounds great, but, all that means is corporations will simply contribute from out of their profit rather than their payroll which means small business and unions cannot keep up overhead wise and are fucked politically. Corporate special interests will always win.

Now, still assuming all unions are totally corrupt, a corrupt union will still oppose big business thus creating a larger spread of interests fighting one another. I'd rather have a bunch of assholes fighting over who calls the shots than 1 asshole calling the shots uncontested. Narrowing the list of who's in control does not serve us one bit. It just cuts down the opponents of the already rich and already powerful. They're narrowing down the number of dicks a politician will have to suck and then having that politician snowball you Mindia. Prop 32 is a cleverly worded lie of omission.

PS - As far as propaganda goes, all I've read was the proposition itself. I've got plenty of experience working with unions from being a Chamber of Commerce president and business owner. It didn't take long to figure out why this shit is a scam.

[Narrock]

Yup, and that's why a yes vote on 32 is of paramount importance. And what's with the "flame bait". You can't seriously think I'm trolling. You obviously don't realize how powerful the union lobby is. Maybe you do, but bottom line is that they are douchebags making millions off the backs of the workers. I was a union carpenter for 4 years. They didn't do shit for me. I could have made a higher wage swingin a hammer for a non-union construction company. And union benefits take twice as long to kick in than in non-union firms. Seriously, fuck unions. They are powerful, and they are USELESS. They are like communists.

[Jay]

Of course I think you're trolling. Everything you say is monumentally ridiculous. You think every single union is bullshit? Every single one? Every. Single. One. ???? Like there's not a shred of a possibility that good people could be union leaders? Whatever floats your boat I guess. The country would be a great place if big business cared about us because they definitely have the wits and resources to improve our lives. Unfortunately I don't live in your alternate reality and in my world even if union lobbies actually cost people millions of dollars, that pales in comparison to the decades we're set back because of big business because it does what it was designed to do: profit no matter what.

[Narrock]

Of course I think you're trolling. Everything you say is monumentally ridiculous. You think every single union is bullshit? Every single one? Every. Single. One. ???? Like there's not a shred of a possibility that good people could be union leaders? Whatever floats your boat I guess. The country would be a great place if big business cared about us because they definitely have the wits and resources to improve our lives. Unfortunately I don't live in your alternate reality and in my world even if union lobbies actually cost people millions of dollars, that pales in comparison to the decades we're set back because of big business because it does what it was designed to do: profit no matter what.

That's what you don't seem to understand... Unions do not improve people's lives. I'm talking teacher's unions (especially), the UAW, the skilled trades unions (carpenters, millwrights, plumbers, IBEW, etc). Ok sure, there might be some that are beneficial to people, but unions just aren't necessary anymore. This isn't the 1930's anymore, holmes.