Guns, I know, not again, can't help myself

[Kaemon]

http://news.yahoo.com/violence-plays-role-shorter-us-life-expectancy-170934628--politics.html

The United States has about six violent deaths per 100,000 residents. None of the 16 other countries included in the review came anywhere close to that ratio. Finland was closest to the U.S. ranking with slightly more than two violent deaths per 100,000 residents.

[Gypsiyee]

Lack the intellectual capacity or knowledge to counter an argument? Get butthurt and rage out.

Apparently, you can't read.

Apparently, you don't heed your own words. But I'll give it to you: a dropout who's spent quite a bit of his adult life unemployed presuming to imply a college graduate who has worked since she was 14 is illiterate is pretty brilliant.

Kaemon: thank you for the article. I think a few tried to make that point earlier in the thread also.

[Gypsiyee]

..and another school shooting today.

[Ganzo]

..and another school shooting today.

In California; but they have an assault rifle ban, how is this possible

[Menelvir]

I think it would be prudent to ask of any proposed legislation, 'how would this have prevented (mitigated/deterred/lessened the effects of, et. al.) what happened in situation 'x' (where 'x' is Columbine, UVa, Aurora, Newtown, etc.).

I believe it's important for any new laws that the legislation actually have efficacy for what it is legislated to address, and not simply to mollify a fear- or emotion-based sentiment.

That said, I have no issue with legislation that "closes the gun show loophole", for example, nor with any legislation that requires background checks (though a background check is hardly foolproof, since the transition from 'law abiding citizen' to 'criminal' does not always have a demonstrable, physical timeline that is evident after the fact). Still if it prevents some gun violence, I think on balance that it will be a positive step.

[Reynaldo]

..and another school shooting today.

In California; but they have an assault rifle ban, how is this possible

We need a society like Wall-E or Minority Report obviously.

[leah]

I think it would be prudent to ask of any proposed legislation, 'how would this have prevented (mitigated/deterred/lessened the effects of, et. al.) what happened in situation 'x' (where 'x' is Columbine, UVa, Aurora, Newtown, etc.).

I believe it's important for any new laws that the legislation actually have efficacy for what it is legislated to address, and not simply to mollify a fear- or emotion-based sentiment.

That said, I have no issue with legislation that "closes the gun show loophole", for example, nor with any legislation that requires background checks (though a background check is hardly foolproof, since the transition from 'law abiding citizen' to 'criminal' does not always have a demonstrable, physical timeline that is evident after the fact). Still if it prevents some gun violence, I think on balance that it will be a positive step.

i think this is a very reasonable approach.




as for the rest of this thread: you derpensteins who are all "BUT HOW COULD A SHOOTING HAPPEN WHERE THERE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS?" make me want to punch a kitten in the face. i do not believe anyone implied that all gun violence is caused by one particular type of gun; rather, said type of gun just makes it easier to commit such violence faster and on a larger scale. i don't see how that can be denied.

furthermore: fuck you. this whole gun debate is such a crock of shit. what a miserable shitshow of a country we live in when we can't even agree that we as a society should take steps that make it even one iota harder for bad people to kill good people with a gun. i don't want to take away the right to own a gun. i would just like additional measures put in place that can at least help keep guns in the hands of good people rather than troubled people prone to violence. i guess i just feel that if you are the good, responsible gun owner you claim to be, then you shouldn't be afraid of an extra step in the registration/licensing/whatever process. if that extra step helps prevent even one violent death, then why the fuck wouldn't you want that put in place? i just don't understand people anymore. probably everyone should just go fuck themselves.

[Kaemon]

..and another school shooting today.

In California; but they have an assault rifle ban, how is this possible

It was a shotgun.

I've come to the conclusion that anyone who feels the need to carry a gun and uses home/personal protection as a vice is mentally unstable with Schizophrenia.

[Arlos]

Notice that only 1 person was shot, too, and may still live. Maybe that CAN be attributed to the fact that he wasn't armed with an assault rifle, nor a weapon with an extended clip...

No one is saying that gun control will automatically make everything sunshine and ponies. But goddam, if losing access to something *NO ONE* actually NEEDS will actually help even 10, 20, 30%, then damn straight we should do it.

-Arlos

[Drem]

I've come to the conclusion that anyone who feels the need to carry a gun and uses home/personal protection as a vice is mentally unstable with Schizophrenia.

[Ganzo]

..and another school shooting today.

In California; but they have an assault rifle ban, how is this possible

It was a shotgun.

[Ganzo]

I've come to the conclusion that anyone who feels the need to carry a gun and uses home/personal protection as a vice is mentally unstable with Schizophrenia.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone who doesn't agree with my point is an idiot, uneducated, dropout and generally sucks in life.



Really I'm just jumping on a bandwagon of attacking the person who made the post instead of trying to counter their points and derailing the thread, since this is the only way we do discussions on the NT for the last few months.

[Arlos]

Show me where I've made a personal attack? Condescending occasionally, and certainly snarky and sarcastic I'll cop to, but I haven't personally attacked anyone in this entire discussion, at least that I'm aware of.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

I'm not sure how anyone could glean a point from that nonsense, since an assault rifle wasn't being used, and as a result there were no casualties. I guess that's a win for your "side". I'll even give it to you, since I doubt there will be many you can claim considering you're logically and morally wrong on just about every subject.

[Spazz]

Yea arlos we got a real problem in america but you dont want to be part of the solution you want to act like a typical liberal and talk down to people. Both the Nra blaming the 90s and the lefts blatant disrespect for the second amendment has me not even wanting to take part in the conversation any more. Are culture is rotten to the core the problems arent the guns its us. We dont know how to act towards one another anymore no matter what the issue.


Also it makes me sick to see you apply the if it saves 10% 20 % logic to guns but not everything else. I find that really annoying that your cool with messing with me and my rights and long as it doesnt affect you or something your into. You want to get rid of a class of arms that while it makes a great news story does not make up the bulk of violent crime at all and that irks me. ALso I really do see a ban as a slippery slope that first its assault rifles, then its semi autos next its conceal and carry. All the while saying come on its sensible gun control it will stop murders as the excuse.

You want me to compromise my beliefs and your not going to get there by acting like a twat.I have proposed several real solutions and compromises I would be willing to make but its not good enough for you.

Both sides of this issue need to shut the fuck up. Yes nra its true that not everyone should have a gun and im sorry you guys cant accept that. Yes liberals most gun owners follow the laws and live in peace while owning and collecting many guns. The truth is that our culture has become absolutely rotten to the core and the guns are just another symptom that the train is coming off the tracks. Shooter after shooter just deranged guys that fell through the cracks and no said anything or did anything or noticed anything because we dont give a shit about each other. Ban all the guns you want and good luck on your utopian societies but until people start to care about each other again my money is on problems persisting.

[Drem]

I'm not sure how anyone could glean a point from that nonsense, since an assault rifle wasn't being used, and as a result there were no casualties. I guess that's a win for your "side". I'll even give it to you, since I doubt there will be many you can claim considering you're logically and morally wrong on just about every subject.

hahahah

love it. i don't even know what he meant when he quoted me. i quoted Kaemon because i thought it was funny. guess since i didn't put "hahahahah" after it i'm just some idiot that thinks everyone's stupid because they don't agree with some point i never made. ganzo's been on a roll with some serious nonsense lately anyways tho. lemme know when we arm every school in america bro. hahahahah

i've already explained my stance on this issue. not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread. if you actually had read it, you'd know that i really don't care if someone has a gun or not. i think it's awesome when good people with guns stop bad people with guns. and i'm not going to change the law or promote change because i think owning guns is a waste of money and an ego trip. also, not my fault you jump to insane conclusions because you selectively choose a post here and there to respond to with some hoity-toity you're-better-than-all-of-us crap with sweeping generalizations about the posting style here because no one ever agrees with what you say

[Ganzo]

I'm not sure how anyone could glean a point from that nonsense, since an assault rifle wasn't being used, and as a result there were no casualties. I guess that's a win for your "side". I'll even give it to you, since I doubt there will be many you can claim considering you're logically and morally wrong on just about every subject.

hahahah

love it. i don't even know what he meant when he quoted me. i quoted Kaemon because i thought it was funny. guess since i didn't put "hahahahah" after it i'm just some idiot that thinks everyone's stupid because they don't agree with some point i never made. ganzo's been on a roll with some serious nonsense lately anyways tho. lemme know when we arm every school in america bro. hahahahah

i've already explained my stance on this issue. not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread. if you actually had read it, you'd know that i really don't care if someone has a gun or not. i think it's awesome when good people with guns stop bad people with guns. and i'm not going to change the law or promote change because i think owning guns is a waste of money and an ego trip. also, not my fault you jump to insane conclusions because you selectively choose a post here and there to respond to with some hoity-toity you're-better-than-all-of-us crap with sweeping generalizations about the posting style here because no one ever agrees with what you say

I don't know why you decided to atribute this picture to your post since it was posted in reply to Kaemon.

Let me simplify it though: people spent pages debating the need to ban the assault rifles and i made a sarcastic remark that the ban of assault rifles did not prevent the incident in California. Is it a rediculous claim - of course it is; but no more rediculous than claiming that since guard in Columbine did not prevent the shooting than guards in school do not work, yet this claim was never questioned.

Funny thing is I don't care about guns, I have a small 9 mm handgun in my safe at home just in case something crazy happens kind of the same way how I keep emergency savings accout. I have no plans to ever buy any other weapons and the last time I fired the one that I own was over 15 years ago. The only reason I comment here is because I hate when people jump on the bandwagons simply from fear.

[10sun]

I was jumped tonight.

Less than a block from my house.

I got my ass handed to me by a guy half a foot shorter and 50 pounds lighter than me.

I would be hospitalized most likely if I hadn't called my roommate when I realized I was being stalked while out on my evening cigarette walk (he was able to run out with my brother and another friend to pull the guy off of me and curb stomp his ass).

If I had had a gun with me someone would be dead. I don't like that prospect.

[leah]

OMG are you ok???

[10sun]

face is a mess and my elbow and knees hurt like shit from tackling him to the ground.

Other than that, my phone went missing and I am now drunk.

My brother ripped at least 4 dreads from the fuckwad's head during the scuffle.

[leah]

i'm really sorry this happened, and really glad you're ok.

[Spazz]

Glad you didnt get hurt badly and your people were able to save the day. Never an easy answer on when shit like that happens. What if he woulda been armed what if your friends wouldnt have made it in time etc. Just be glad ya lived another day. Seems to be no shortage of scumbags out there these days.

[Drem]

God damn adam. That sucks to hear! Glad you're ok. I sort of like your comment regarding the lack of a gun at the time

And i wasnt attributing your pic to anything ganzo. I quoted his post. Im on a phone, im not wasting time editing quotes

Adam i think im gonna transfer to firiona. Nobody ever plays on nameless anymore! Yall still rocking over there?

[Arlos]

Yea arlos we got a real problem in america but you dont want to be part of the solution you want to act like a typical liberal and talk down to people. Both the Nra blaming the 90s and the lefts blatant disrespect for the second amendment has me not even wanting to take part in the conversation any more. Are culture is rotten to the core the problems arent the guns its us. We dont know how to act towards one another anymore no matter what the issue.


Also it makes me sick to see you apply the if it saves 10% 20 % logic to guns but not everything else. I find that really annoying that your cool with messing with me and my rights and long as it doesnt affect you or something your into. You want to get rid of a class of arms that while it makes a great news story does not make up the bulk of violent crime at all and that irks me. ALso I really do see a ban as a slippery slope that first its assault rifles, then its semi autos next its conceal and carry. All the while saying come on its sensible gun control it will stop murders as the excuse.

You want me to compromise my beliefs and your not going to get there by acting like a twat.I have proposed several real solutions and compromises I would be willing to make but its not good enough for you.

Both sides of this issue need to shut the fuck up. Yes nra its true that not everyone should have a gun and im sorry you guys cant accept that. Yes liberals most gun owners follow the laws and live in peace while owning and collecting many guns. The truth is that our culture has become absolutely rotten to the core and the guns are just another symptom that the train is coming off the tracks. Shooter after shooter just deranged guys that fell through the cracks and no said anything or did anything or noticed anything because we dont give a shit about each other. Ban all the guns you want and good luck on your utopian societies but until people start to care about each other again my money is on problems persisting.

See, no one has, as yet, provided any compelling reason why anyone, outside the military, needs a military caliber weapon. "Because I want one", "because it's neat", etc. hold no weight. I might think owning a SAM battery would be neat, or maybe a dozen large canisters of nerve gas would be cool. Doesn't mean I should be able to have them. Oh, and no, I don't for one second buy the "To defend ourselves from tyranny!" argument as a reason to let people own such weapons. As mentioned before in this thread, Australia banned such weapons, retroactively even, and not only are they now not a despotic state because of the lack of assault weapons in the civilian populace, but they saw a dramatic DROP in gun-related crimes. I posted the link. Did you read the stats? Britain, Sweden, Japan all have far more draconic weapons bans than anything being proposed in the US, and they are not oppressive tyrannies either.

The simple fact is that an assault weapon, like an AK or AR-15, is an instrument designed for one specific purpose: to kill multiple other human beings in a short amount of time. Again, the ONLY difference between a civilian AR-15 and the military version is that the military version has a selector switch to allow for 3-round bursts. Yes, you might be fine owning one. So is the friend of mine that has an AK. Then again, Tony Stewart or another NASCAR driver might well drive drunk better than lots of people drive sober. Does that mean we should legalize drunk driving, just because some subset of the population are capable of doing it safely? Of course not. Likewise, just because you, personally, might not be a danger because you own such a weapon does NOT mean that they should be universally allowed, either.

That's why your other argument just doesn't hold water. Neither alcohol nor tobacco are military grade devices built with the primary purpose of killing people, nor can either substance, by itself, injure or kill large groups of other people. Alcohol especially can have health benefits when used properly. Trying to equate them to firearms simply doesn't work because they are not even remotely the same sort of thing. "One of these things is not like the other...." and all that. Again like I said, someone abusing either one is only hurting themselves, no one else. (Obvious disclaimer: barring drinking and driving, of course, which I obviously don't support legalizing, and again, barring excessive secondhand smoke, which is why I am a big supporter of things like California's ban on smoking in bars and restaurants). If someone misusing firearms could only injure themselves, I wouldn't be in favor of restricting them. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Now, like I've said before, I could not care less what firearms people own if (and this is a big if), those firearms are STRICTLY kept at a licensed firing range. Period. I don't care how crazy a person is, if they can't take their weapon away from the range, it's not a risk to anyone. Hell, I couldn't care less if you had a full auto M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun, if the only place it ever stays is such a range. Would that be an acceptable compromise for you? You get to own any gun you want, no matter how milspec, but you can't keep it at home, ever. Guns that could be brought home would, just off the top of my head, be shotguns (though not semi-auto ones), hunting rifles and handguns (though with no more than a 10-round magazine).

Obviously, there is more that can be done about things beyond firearms themselves. Just as a first step, we need to close the gun show loophole, immediately. Right now any violent felon or crazy person can go to a gun show and buy all the firearms they like, without ever having to go through the background check that would instantly disqualify them if they tried to buy anywhere else. Also, as you noted, the mental health care system in this country is a disgrace. We used to, 50 years ago, have a big comprehensive network of state-run mental hospitals that kept people like that off the streets, got them care they needed, etc. But, since that's "big government at work", they were done away with. (That's why my parents despised Reagan, actually. When he was Governor of CA, he just arbitrarily closed all the state mental hospitals, literally kicking all of the patients who weren't rich enough to pay for private care out into the street.)

No one thing is going to solve these problems. There are far too many interconnected issues involved here for any one action to fix everything. There are, as I said, numerous things we can do besides restricting the actual firearms themselves. Yet the one absolute commonality between these mass shootings is, obviously, one thing: People used guns to do them. Therefore, SOME kind of restriction on them must be part of the conversation. I am sorry if that personally inconveniences you, but that is not sufficient reason to avoid looking at what we can do about guns themselves to make incidents like Sandy Hook less likely.

No solution is perfect either. No matter what we do, there will be mass attacks in the future. Yet if what we do now, today, can make them less likely, make them less severe, or make them more difficult to carry out, then we have an obligation to try.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

You compare rifles to nerve gas, but expect to be taken seriously.

Yet cigarettes, that serve no legitimate purpose, is taking it too far.

You can't arbitrarily assign what is not the same and then turn around and compare a rifle to nerve gas. If people were so worried about other people, and they're not, they would go after the real killers and not just the high profile ones.

We get it. You're perfectly okay with giving up your rights. Some of us aren't willing to lie down and give our rights away and depend on everyone else for everything.