Do prosecutors have too much power?

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Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:23 am

I really enjoyed this article. I really dislike the fact someone can do one act and be charged with 13 overlapping crimes, and I think much like our tax code, our criminal justice laws are way over complicated and cumbersome.

The Aaron Swartz story is a perfect example of how in my opinion prosecutors have far too much power and too little oversight. Thoughts?

http://bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/02/03 ... story.html

THE SUICIDE OF INTERNET ACTIVIST Aaron Swartz, who faced felony charges at the time of his death that could have sent him to prison for 35 years, has provoked an outpouring of debate about the power of government prosecutors. Swartz had been charged with 13 felonies for sneaking into a wiring closet at MIT and using his laptop to download millions of academic articles through the school’s computer network. According to Swartz’s lawyer, the federal prosecutor’s office offered the 26-year-old a deal that would have required him to plead guilty on all counts in exchange for a six-month prison sentence. On Jan. 11, days after rejecting the deal, Swartz took his own life.

Swartz had struggled for years with depression, and it is impossible to know what led him to kill himself. But in the weeks since his death, he has become a rallying point for critics of the criminal justice system who see his story as an object lesson in the excessive power of government prosecutors. By stacking charges as high as possible and wielding the threat of mandatory sentencing laws, the argument goes, prosecutors intimidate defendants and make it all but impossible to turn down their offers.

Prosecutors, even the most conscientious ones, work within a system that is set up to reward toughness, and concerned lawyers, activists, and legal scholars have been calling for more checks on their power for years. But changing the status quo has proven difficult, in large part because voters have repeatedly demonstrated their preference for prosecutors who know how to get convictions swiftly and often.

By now, there have been lots of ideas for how to rein in prosecutorial power. Some have suggested judges should play a bigger role in reviewing charging decisions. Others want to reduce the number of laws on the books, so that people can’t be charged with 13 overlapping crimes when they’ve really just committed one or two. Others still have argued that prosecutors should be forced to reimburse citizens for legal fees when charges end up getting dropped or they’re found not guilty.

But an outspoken group of thinkers has proposed another approach to the problem—one that begins with the observation that fewer than 5 percent of cases brought by American prosecutors every year lead to an actual jury trial, while the rest play out in plea bargains almost entirely behind closed doors. In practice, that means juries have all but vanished from the justice system, replaced by a highly efficient machine that processes cases without ever stopping to consider what seems moral or fair. To rein prosecutors back in, these scholars argue, America should reinstate ordinary citizens to their rightful place in the process, and with them a common-sense vision of fairness.

“The explosion of plea bargaining has really marginalized the role of laypeople,” said Ric Simmons, a professor at the Moritz College of Law at the Ohio State University who specializes in criminal law. “What we want to do in this area is think of ways to introduce...populist participation and a common-sense check into the prosecutors’ decision-making process.”

Simmons and his allies have proposed imaginative new ways in which the judgment of laypeople could help restore balance in the secretive early phases of criminal justice. They call for new kinds of juries or new uses—and new powers—for the ones we already have.

At the heart of their argument is a belief that regular people, with no personal stake in the outcome and an average citizen’s sense of right and wrong, can offer a much-needed counterweight to the professionals tasked with enforcing the letter of the law. But is it naive to think so?

***

STATE AND FEDERAL prosecutors occupy some of the highest-profile seats in American civic life, armed with the power of the law to protect their constituents from criminals and corruption. The prosecutor’s office has been the launching point for countless political careers, including former Massachusetts governor William Weld, newly minted Secretary of State John Kerry, and recently elected Massachusetts Representative Joseph Kennedy III. In 2010, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley came within an inch of a Senate seat.

In making one’s name as a prosecutor, what tends to matter is winning convictions, and lots of them. The most efficient way to do that is to strike plea bargains and avoid trials, by threatening defendants with potentially devastating prison terms and convincing them to plead guilty to lesser crimes. To critics, this means that the charging process essentially rigs the game against defendants from the outset. Civil libertarians regard this as a dangerous gap in our rights: While the police who investigate and arrest us are bound by strict limits on what they can do, and courts must abide by procedures designed to treat defendants fairly, there are hardly any guidelines in place to protect us during the charging phase. The result—as any “Law & Order” fan knows—is a system where the prosecutor loads up as many charges as possible to force a guilty plea, and moves on to the next case.

“What we really have is a plea bargain system with a thin froth of showy trials floating on top,” said Glenn Reynolds, a professor at the University of Tennessee College of Law who published a widely circulated paper earlier this month on the topic of prosecutorial overreach.

Changing this, say reform-minded experts like Reynolds, would not necessarily require a radical reworking of how prosecutors do their jobs. Instead, it would be enough to strengthen an institution that’s already in place, though widely marginalized: the grand jury, a panel of citizens who are supposed to watch over the shoulders of prosecutors to make sure their fellow citizens aren’t being improperly charged, bullied, or targeted arbitrarily.

Grand juries today are required by law in just 19 of the 50 states—Massachusetts among them—and even there, they’re used only to indict felons. Officially, their job is listen to the prosecutor lay out the evidence and determine whether there is probable cause to charge the suspect with a crime. But in practice, grand juries tend to serve as rubber stamps, indicting almost everyone who comes before them. (It was a federal grand jury that indicted Aaron Swartz on felony charges in July 2011.) The joke in legal circles is that any prosecutor worth his salt could convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

To restore grand juries’ power to protect people from prosecutors, one important change states could make, Simmons says, is to give suspects the right to testify at their own hearings, and their attorneys the right to present exonerating evidence. Currently, there are only four states in the United States where those rights are in place; among them is New York—and, tellingly, approximately 6 to 10 percent of New York’s criminal cases are struck down by the grand jury, vastly higher than the national average. When Simmons was a prosecutor in New York earlier in his career, he said, there were several times when people he was trying to indict—a young military veteran accused of cocaine possession, a man who tried to bribe a police officer so he wouldn’t have to spend the night in jail—spoke up on their own behalf, and convinced the grand jury they didn’t deserve the proposed charges. In those ­cases, Simmons says, there was clearly probable cause to indict, but the jurors decided there was something about the situation that made the prospect of criminal punishment seem unfair.

Josh Bowers, an associate professor at the University of Virginia School of Law and a former public defender, believes that grand juries would be more useful if we relied on them more explicitly for this deeper kind of judgment, and recast them as a sort of grass-roots branch of government “that serves to reshape the rough edges of the law in a decidedly populist fashion.”

Instead of being asked to make yes/no determinations about probable cause in felony cases—at heart a technical legal matter—Bowers argues that grand juries should instead be asked to weigh the fairness of all kinds of charges, including subway turnstile hops, public urination, graffiti, and marijuana possession, and throw them out if they don’t meet basic moral standards.

THE SUICIDE OF INTERNET ACTIVIST Aaron Swartz, who faced felony charges at the time of his death that could have sent him to prison for 35 years, has provoked an outpouring of debate about the power of government prosecutors. Swartz had been charged with 13 felonies for sneaking into a wiring closet at MIT and using his laptop to download millions of academic articles through the school’s computer network. According to Swartz’s lawyer, the federal prosecutor’s office offered the 26-year-old a deal that would have required him to plead guilty on all counts in exchange for a six-month prison sentence. On Jan. 11, days after rejecting the deal, Swartz took his own life.

Swartz had struggled for years with depression, and it is impossible to know what led him to kill himself. But in the weeks since his death, he has become a rallying point for critics of the criminal justice system who see his story as an object lesson in the excessive power of government prosecutors. By stacking charges as high as possible and wielding the threat of mandatory sentencing laws, the argument goes, prosecutors intimidate defendants and make it all but impossible to turn down their offers.

Prosecutors, even the most conscientious ones, work within a system that is set up to reward toughness, and concerned lawyers, activists, and legal scholars have been calling for more checks on their power for years. But changing the status quo has proven difficult, in large part because voters have repeatedly demonstrated their preference for prosecutors who know how to get convictions swiftly and often.

By now, there have been lots of ideas for how to rein in prosecutorial power. Some have suggested judges should play a bigger role in reviewing charging decisions. Others want to reduce the number of laws on the books, so that people can’t be charged with 13 overlapping crimes when they’ve really just committed one or two. Others still have argued that prosecutors should be forced to reimburse citizens for legal fees when charges end up getting dropped or they’re found not guilty.

But an outspoken group of thinkers has proposed another approach to the problem—one that begins with the observation that fewer than 5 percent of cases brought by American prosecutors every year lead to an actual jury trial, while the rest play out in plea bargains almost entirely behind closed doors. In practice, that means juries have all but vanished from the justice system, replaced by a highly efficient machine that processes cases without ever stopping to consider what seems moral or fair. To rein prosecutors back in, these scholars argue, America should reinstate ordinary citizens to their rightful place in the process, and with them a common-sense vision of fairness.


JAMES MICHAEL KRUGER/ISTOCKPHOTO

‘The explosion of plea bargaining has really marginalized the role of laypeople.’


“The explosion of plea bargaining has really marginalized the role of laypeople,” said Ric Simmons, a professor at the Moritz College of Law at the Ohio State University who specializes in criminal law. “What we want to do in this area is think of ways to introduce...populist participation and a common-sense check into the prosecutors’ decision-making process.”

Simmons and his allies have proposed imaginative new ways in which the judgment of laypeople could help restore balance in the secretive early phases of criminal justice. They call for new kinds of juries or new uses—and new powers—for the ones we already have.

At the heart of their argument is a belief that regular people, with no personal stake in the outcome and an average citizen’s sense of right and wrong, can offer a much-needed counterweight to the professionals tasked with enforcing the letter of the law. But is it naive to think so?

***

STATE AND FEDERAL prosecutors occupy some of the highest-profile seats in American civic life, armed with the power of the law to protect their constituents from criminals and corruption. The prosecutor’s office has been the launching point for countless political careers, including former Massachusetts governor William Weld, newly minted Secretary of State John Kerry, and recently elected Massachusetts Representative Joseph Kennedy III. In 2010, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley came within an inch of a Senate seat.

In making one’s name as a prosecutor, what tends to matter is winning convictions, and lots of them. The most efficient way to do that is to strike plea bargains and avoid trials, by threatening defendants with potentially devastating prison terms and convincing them to plead guilty to lesser crimes. To critics, this means that the charging process essentially rigs the game against defendants from the outset. Civil libertarians regard this as a dangerous gap in our rights: While the police who investigate and arrest us are bound by strict limits on what they can do, and courts must abide by procedures designed to treat defendants fairly, there are hardly any guidelines in place to protect us during the charging phase. The result—as any “Law & Order” fan knows—is a system where the prosecutor loads up as many charges as possible to force a guilty plea, and moves on to the next case.

“What we really have is a plea bargain system with a thin froth of showy trials floating on top,” said Glenn Reynolds, a professor at the University of Tennessee College of Law who published a widely circulated paper earlier this month on the topic of prosecutorial overreach.

Changing this, say reform-minded experts like Reynolds, would not necessarily require a radical reworking of how prosecutors do their jobs. Instead, it would be enough to strengthen an institution that’s already in place, though widely marginalized: the grand jury, a panel of citizens who are supposed to watch over the shoulders of prosecutors to make sure their fellow citizens aren’t being improperly charged, bullied, or targeted arbitrarily.

Grand juries today are required by law in just 19 of the 50 states—Massachusetts among them—and even there, they’re used only to indict felons. Officially, their job is listen to the prosecutor lay out the evidence and determine whether there is probable cause to charge the suspect with a crime. But in practice, grand juries tend to serve as rubber stamps, indicting almost everyone who comes before them. (It was a federal grand jury that indicted Aaron Swartz on felony charges in July 2011.) The joke in legal circles is that any prosecutor worth his salt could convince a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.

To restore grand juries’ power to protect people from prosecutors, one important change states could make, Simmons says, is to give suspects the right to testify at their own hearings, and their attorneys the right to present exonerating evidence. Currently, there are only four states in the United States where those rights are in place; among them is New York—and, tellingly, approximately 6 to 10 percent of New York’s criminal cases are struck down by the grand jury, vastly higher than the national average. When Simmons was a prosecutor in New York earlier in his career, he said, there were several times when people he was trying to indict—a young military veteran accused of cocaine possession, a man who tried to bribe a police officer so he wouldn’t have to spend the night in jail—spoke up on their own behalf, and convinced the grand jury they didn’t deserve the proposed charges. In those ­cases, Simmons says, there was clearly probable cause to indict, but the jurors decided there was something about the situation that made the prospect of criminal punishment seem unfair.

Josh Bowers, an associate professor at the University of Virginia School of Law and a former public defender, believes that grand juries would be more useful if we relied on them more explicitly for this deeper kind of judgment, and recast them as a sort of grass-roots branch of government “that serves to reshape the rough edges of the law in a decidedly populist fashion.”

Instead of being asked to make yes/no determinations about probable cause in felony cases—at heart a technical legal matter—Bowers argues that grand juries should instead be asked to weigh the fairness of all kinds of charges, including subway turnstile hops, public urination, graffiti, and marijuana possession, and throw them out if they don’t meet basic moral standards.

“Laypeople are bad at applying law to fact,” Bowers said. “I think they are much better when it comes to moral reasoning—using everyday wisdom and their experience and existence in the world to make moral judgments about what we ought to do.” In a recent paper, Bowers invokes the morally ambiguous story of a doctor in New Orleans charged with homicide after euthanizing people stranded in a flooded hospital after Hurricane Katrina; in that case, after deliberating for months, the grand jury declined to indict.

The principle that ordinary people can serve as a sort of moral compass also drives a proposal by Laura Appleman, an associate professor at Willamette University College of Law, who argues that we should respond to the new realities of the legal system by creating a new kind of jury entirely—one that oversees plea bargaining. This group of people would take into account the circumstances of the defendant’s arrest, the charges that were originally brought by the prosecutor, and finally, the terms of the guilty plea. “The hope would be to cast some transparency and some sunshine and some legitimacy on the process,” Appleman said. “If the plea jury, as I call it, thinks [the deal] sounds fair enough, they’d sign off on it. And if they said no, the court would have to take a closer look.”

***

THOUGH GRAND JURY reform has achieved traction in some circles, most experts in the legal field are skeptical that bringing laypeople into the charging process is the right way to curb prosecutorial overreach. For one thing, there are practical concerns: Though having ordinary citizens weigh in on every little misdemeanor and every plea deal might make the system less ruthless and less mechanical, it would also slow it down severely, and require a bigger time commitment from citizens who are already inclined to treat jury duty as a huge imposition.

But there’s a bigger issue, too: As Daniel Richman, a professor at Columbia Law School points out, the defining feature of laypeople is that they’re not experienced in what they’re being asked to do—and even worse, they are frequently biased in ways that would compromise their ability to make objective judgments. Richman argues that in order to be fair, the criminal justice system must treat like crimes alike—which is precisely why having a professional prosecutor keeping track of precedent and making decisions based on past practice is better than having random people come in off the street. Even Bowers concedes that a quick look at the distant past, when American grand juries were more powerful, underscores this concern: For every instance of a Northern jury refusing to indict an abolitionist for violating the Fugitive Slave Act, there was a Southern jury that refused to indict a white person facing charges of violence against a recently freed slave.

At issue, then, is whether we should expect ourselves and our fellow citizens to know better than the professionals what is and isn’t fair. Richman points out that citizens like tough justice systems, as they’ve shown by electing tough-on-crime politicians and prosecutors. He argues that it would be foolish to expect something to change when the same citizens were impaneled on a jury. But proponents of more public participation argue that people think about punishment differently in the abstract than when a crime is real and specific. It’s easy, they say, to be unforgiving while sitting at home and thinking about the threat of crime, but harder when you’re actually facing a defendant and deciding what should happen to him.

Of course, it’s impossible to know how more input from everyday citizens might affect any particular case. To the people on the federal grand jury in Massachusetts, a suspect like Aaron Swartz might have looked more sinister, or more innocent, than we assume from the outside. The question, as we scrutinize the workings of our criminal justice system, is how much we want their opinions to matter.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Harrison » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:31 am

I've been donating to Demandprogress for quite some time now.

This is the type of disgusting shit that prompted me to do so.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:29 pm

ANyone on here ever been arrested and charged ? Its not just lawyers cops give you a million charges when they pick you up on purpose to plead you down. I got picked up on made up allegations and trumped up gun charges a few years back. None of it stuck other than loitering around drugs but damned if they didnt try. Theres so many re writes of the same law with slightly different wording that getting picked up for anything is more likely going to be 12 charges than 1.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Tikker » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:25 pm

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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:18 pm

I know where to start. Make it a law that only violent criminals do hard time. Slowly wind down drug enforcement while making stiffer sentences for junky crimes like armed robbery home invasion and b and e. White color crimes are where things get trickier like what this guy did or bernie made off dont involve the violence but are still pretty bad. There are other ways to ruin someone besides violence but I dont know whereto house or how long to jail those guys.

Like everyone else when I got charged I took the plea cuz 1 it would have cost a ton of money to fight 2 if i took it i did the time andgot a clear record and 3 I new damn well if it went to court i would be facing a lot of charges instead of just the 1.

It really comes down to either a dont do it or b dont get caught cuz your gonna get screwed any time you go up against the machine. It doesnt care about you morals or fairness it just wants money and counts bodies. If they get you in jail the prison industry will profit off you and if they get you with fines they get your money.

I dont really know what to say about this guy. True the system is broken and it needs some repairs but he shouldnt have done what he did and once busted shoulda taken that 6 month deal. Way it works is if you take the deal your going away for a long time Its screwy but we all know it. No politician wants to touch issues like this either or there opponent will say they are soft on crime and thats one of the buzzwords that make people flip. Whole towns in the middle of nowhere are employed by prisons so your not going to see them fight against it either. Then theres the fact that so many people in power have investments in the prison industry and you realize that they dont want it changed either. I know this guy wasnt caught because of the war on drugs but the war on drugs is one of the main reasons our legal system has become like that. Plea deals and mandatory sentences are a slam dunk for any prosecutor and have set the precedent on how do courts operate. Scare em with the charges make em plead guilty to the worst no court time one for the win column and move on to the next one. Youve also got to fault rubberstamp judges who just sign off on whatever paperwork comes across the desk without any review because the courts are swamped with bullshit they dont have time to look it over and they know where the money comes from.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Harrison » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:22 pm

Stop letting the Government be your mommy and daddy 24/7.

Shit is out of control. It's going to be Demolition Man soon.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Tikker » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:04 pm

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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Drem » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:56 pm

no shit. what's the point of the government if it doesn't even do anything
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby brinstar » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:41 pm

the case itself is fucked up. he accidentally crashed a school network while "stealing" a bunch of articles that were free for students to download.

at worst that's a B&E charge and a semester of academic probation. the feds swooping in and threatening 35 years of federal prison is completely fucked up.

cracking down on state-legal dispensaries, going after whistleblowers, complete abject failure to prosecute any banksters, and now this? the obama DOJ is a fucking embarrassment
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:46 pm

The point is you end up with situations like the Swartz one above. There needs to be more government and checks in place against prosecutor overreach. We also need a simpler criminal justice code that does not allow someone like Spazz to be charged with 20 crimes when he should be charged with one. I've never been charged with a crime in the US but I've twice done jury duty and been disgusted at the charges both times. They wanted to charge a drunk and disorderly guy who resisted arrest with a bunch of felonies that were obviously trumped up. Worse, half the jurors were willing to go along with a conviction just because the cops said so, despite the fact common sense dictated otherwise.

It has nothing to do with doing the right thing. Chances are everyone on this board is breaking the law in some manner every day. This kid didn't deserve this, nor do many others who get treated like this as Spazz noted for very minor things but are treated like P.O.W.s by our wonderful system. Heck, I'd argue POWs are treated better.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby brinstar » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:01 pm

Lyion wrote:There needs to be more government


hahahaha gotcha
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:13 pm

So like so many other things in our country we agree that this is a problem but how do we fix it.

I think im a defeatist I dont think it can be. WE need lawmakers to agree 1 that there is a problem and 2 the action needed to fix it and that isnt possible. Like I said earlier to admit that our legal system is broken we must admit why and we arent allowed to. Politicians arent allowed to say the drug war is a failure, arent allowed to point out that we jail people at an insane rate and that jailing people for profit has become our legal policy. Just like the military the prison industry has become so intertwined into our economy that we cant do shit about it. Therapy , classes, drug testing places, the courts themselves , the food providrs to the jails, the jails themselves and on and on. To attack it is to attack the economy and that is damn sure not allowed.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:36 pm

So many laws made to keep poor people and non whites in there place and now the monster is loose on people that matter and its all of a sudden its a big deal. How many niggers you think got 35 years on some bullshit in the last 50 years and how many people set up funds and came to aid them and blog about the cause? The more I sit here and read this the and think on it the more angry im becoming. All mylife ive seen politicians pass more and more laws on everything to the point where we really are no longer free. Ive heard it said multiple times that there are so many laws we are all felons. Cops and courts are seriously militarized so what exactly can we do ? You gonna go out swinging when the cops come to arrest you ? Might win in court but you also might get your dogs shot and end up in a wheelchair. You gonna shoot it out with em ? You ownt be remembered as a revolutionary youll be remembered as a loon? Let em take you in and do life over something silly ? If you fall through the cracks your at the mercy of a cop a lawyer and a judge in that order and the odds no matter what the case are not on your side. If youve been picked up by the cops you know youve already been judged and your guilty til you can prove it otherwise not the other way around. They treat ya like shit dont tell you what your being charged with and in general act all high and mighty. They confuse you on time so you have no idea youve been in they frighten you and then they charge you with whatever there is a precedent that they can charge you with and move you on to the plea stage. If youve never been through you cant even imagine howshitty it is. Last thing in this rant is that also each step of the way its set up for it to be as hard as possiblefor you to get out fight back or fix your situation. To actually win your court case is set up to be so expensive that only the elite can afford it. Makes it real easy to lock up white trash, niggers, and spicks though and I think that was originally the goal.

Dont like my language thats fine im just callin it like I see it.

As A sane conservative lyion what should we do and what can we do to slow down the prison monster. Weed ? Coke ? make the judge read each case and judge it on its merits ? I know what I would be willing to experiment with if I had political power but I dont know what someone like you would think or be willing to try.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Harrison » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:08 am

Tikker wrote:
Harrison wrote:Stop letting the Government be your mommy and daddy 24/7.

Shit is out of control. It's going to be Demolition Man soon.



the answer is to let the government be your mommy and daddy, and stop bucking the system


play by the rules and everyone wins


otherwise you end up with Harrison's all over the place


Adults who can't govern their own lives, lawl.

What you said doesn't even make sense. I "play by the rules" and the system is the problem.

Not that the opinion of a Canadian even matters, once again.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:46 am

Spazz, the first thing I'd do is a complete overhaul of our criminal justice code and laws at the state and federal level.

I liked the authors suggestion in regards to empowering Grand Juries more, and some sort of way to get rid of the 'railroading' charges when a person is arrested. This is my 'more government' solution, but it's mainly empowering non political and lawyer elements to add a layer in the process to protect people.

Josh Bowers, an associate professor at the University of Virginia School of Law and a former public defender, believes that grand juries would be more useful if we relied on them more explicitly for this deeper kind of judgment, and recast them as a sort of grass-roots branch of government “that serves to reshape the rough edges of the law in a decidedly populist fashion.”

Instead of being asked to make yes/no determinations about probable cause in felony cases—at heart a technical legal matter—Bowers argues that grand juries should instead be asked to weigh the fairness of all kinds of charges, including subway turnstile hops, public urination, graffiti, and marijuana possession, and throw them out if they don’t meet basic moral standards.


I also think we need more accountability for prosecutors, and to reign in their power.

The other problem we have is the incredible amount of power Police Officer and Correctional Officers Unions hold in many states. They are heavily invested in the status quo, and nothing sells politically like supporting law enforcement and being tough on crime.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Ganzo » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:44 am

The first step would be to ban for-profit prisons. There is no way keeping people locked up should net a 1.5billion annual in profits, that is just asking for abuse in sentencing.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Zanchief » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:25 pm

Don't judges have the power to just do away with erroneous charges? It should fall on them. Problem solved.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:34 pm

Judges have to adhere to the law, and currently the baseline is for one to get charged with 20 crimes for one act.

Ganzo, ask California how the California Department of Corrections and their non profit prison setup is working for their states finances. If they could do it over, their entire prison system would be for profit, and it'd save that state billions per year.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:07 pm

There we go lyion private prisons are a huge part of this problem and your defending them. Sorry dude I dont give 2 fucks what it costs private prisons the fact that they need the beds to be full is a huge part of this problem. Its exactly thoughts like that why I say that this problem is unfixable.


Any time your locking people up for a profit its going to cause a huge conflict. If your going to come talk about prisons for money than dont cry when some punk ass white kid gets a sentence he cant handle and kills himself cuz thats the system your advocating.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Ganzo » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:39 pm

Lyion,
I was going to type a response but this:
Spazz wrote:There we go Lyion private prisons are a huge part of this problem and your defending them. Sorry dude I don't give 2 fucks what it costs private prisons the fact that they need the beds to be full is a huge part of this problem. Its exactly thoughts like that why I say that this problem is unfixable.


Any time you are locking people up for a profit its going to cause a huge conflict. If you're going to come talk about prisons for money then don't cry when some punk ass white kid gets a sentence he can't handle and kills himself because that's the system you're advocating. 
works better that what I was going to say.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:32 am

I don't see how private prisons are any worse than Correctional Officer unions in bed with politicians to try and have as many facilities and inmates as possible.Half dozen of one, six of the other.

The problem isn't the prisons, in my opinion, it's the laws and police state mentality we push. Prisons have no say in who goes to jail. That's like saying gun racks promote more gun violence.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Ganzo » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:46 am

Lyion wrote:I don't see how private prisons are any worse than Correctional Officer unions in bed with politicians to try and have as many facilities and inmates as possible.Half dozen of one, six of the other.

The problem isn't the prisons, in my opinion, it's the laws and police state mentality we push. Prisons have no say in who goes to jail. That's like saying gun racks promote more gun violence.


This is how:

Former Luzerne County (Pennsylvania) Judge Mark Ciavarella has been spending his time doing odd jobs for a car towing service while awaiting sentencing since being found guilty on felony corruption charges. His car towing days are over, and the 61-year-old judge is heading to federal prison for 28 years — this could amount to a life sentence.

His sentence brings to closure a dark time in the history of the city of Wilkes-Barre, PA, which is in Luzerne County. He was found guilty in February of racketeering for taking a $1 million kickback from the builder of for-profit prisons for juveniles. Ciavarella who left the bench over two years ago after he and another judge, Michael Conahan, were accused of sentencing youngsters to prisons they had a hand in building. Prosecutors alleged that Conahan, who pleaded guilty last year and is awaiting sentencing, and Ciavarella received kick-backs from the private company that built and maintained the new youth detention facility that replaced the older county-run center.

Ciavarella, who presided over juvenile court, sent kids to juvenile detention for crimes such as possession of drug paraphernalia, stealing a jar of nutmeg and posting web page spoofs about an assistant principal (3 months of hard time). Some of those sentenced were as young as 10 years old. A mother of one of those sentenced by judge Caivarella lashed out at him after the guilty verdict. Sandy Fonzo’s son, Edward, was a promising young athlete in high school when at the age of 17 he found himself in front of judge Caivarella for possession of drug paraphernalia. With no prior convictions, the judge sentenced Edward to months in private prisons and a wilderness camp…he missed his entire senior year in high school. Edward never recovered from the experience according to his mother and in June 2010 he took his own life at the age of 23.

Ciavarella acknowledged in a recent interview with a Wilkes-Barre investigative reporter (Joe Holden of WBRE) that he made mistakes relating to not filing accurate tax returns but that he never sentenced a child to prison when it was not warranted. Ciavarella, who testified in his own defense at trial, said as much to the jury….and the jury did not buy it.

Ciavarella is married and has three grown children, additional victims of his crimes. However, I feel for the victims whose lives were forever changed by the misguided sentences handed out by judge Ciavarella. This is a sad day for the justice system but it is refreshing to see the right person going to jail this time.


This one was caught but how many other judges/procecutors are receiving kickbacks for keeping jails full. Another issue is that private prison companies like as Corrections Corporation of America and G4S sell inmate labor to Fortune 500 corporations like Chevron, Bank of America, AT&T and IBM and pay inmates less than $1 per hour if at all. Tell me how there is no insentive to keep prisons full and build new ones?
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:05 pm

There is corruption in every endeavor and in many commercial enterprises. The solution isn't to have government control everything, it's to get better safeguards in place. In this case this judge is going to jail. I still don't see a really good argument for more government run prisons, since their unions are more damaging to laws and states than private ones in my opinion.

I think the bigger issue is our entire legal system and country which promotes a complex, expensive, and bloated system with too little say by non lawyers and too many cumbersome overlapping laws weighted to screw anyone who has the misfortune to be charged with anything.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby Spazz » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:08 pm

I still don't see a really good argument for more government run prisons, since their unions are more damaging to laws and states than private ones in my opinion.


No easy way to put it so ill be blunt. Your opinion is fucking retarded. The facts dont support what you think. You can keep on thinking its the unions and you can keep on being dead fucking wrong. The prison lobby is a huge corporate lobby that sells slave labor. Its a huge conflict of interest to jail people for profit and if you cant see that theres no point in wasting my time talking to you.

I think the bigger issue is our entire legal system and country which promotes a complex, expensive, and bloated system with too little say by non lawyers and too many cumbersome overlapping laws weighted to screw anyone who has the misfortune to be charged with anything.


As for that line there you cant change any of that when the name of the game is to lock people up for profit. God damned pesky unions locking everyone up .... Jesus christ dude.
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Re: Do prosecutors have too much power?

Postby brinstar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:07 pm

Lyion wrote:There is corruption in every endeavor and in many commercial enterprises. The solution isn't to have government control everything, it's to get better safeguards in place. In this case this judge is going to jail. I still don't see a really good argument for more government run prisons, since their unions are more damaging to laws and states than private ones in my opinion.

I think the bigger issue is our entire legal system and country which promotes a complex, expensive, and bloated system with too little say by non lawyers and too many cumbersome overlapping laws weighted to screw anyone who has the misfortune to be charged with anything.


while i agree heartily with the latter paragraph, i think the former is bullshit.

all else being equal, i will ALWAYS choose the public option wherein administrators are ultimately accountable to taxpayers over the private option where administrators answer only to investors.

every god damn time.
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