Domestic Violence: Poking the bear vs. Victim blame

[Jay]

Had a discussion with a friend about Stephen A Smith's comments on domestic violence, specifically pertaining to the Ray Rice incident. To paraphrase, he basically warned women to not provoke the wrong doing of violent men. He IS (edit) being blasted for it by like every media outlet and being accused of blaming the victim.

Personally, I don't think what he said was all that terrible. I think the way he worded it was wrong and that every circumstance of violence because of anger is wrong. I also think that Ray Rice should get way more than a 2 game suspension. I don't think it's right for a person to attack another person at all unless it's self defense or an authority figure stopping a crime from taking place. I do think though that if we examine the problem of domestic violence you'll find cases where guys are set off by nothing, like the wife making the meatloaf too salty then bam beatdown, and there's also cases where the victim, prior to being attacked, basically psychologically took the man apart and got him angry to the point of violence. Is it wrong to say that it could have been avoided or would that fall under victim blaming? Ultimately, no amount of shit talking deserves violence, but is saying that it could have been avoided with a better choice of words blaming the victim?

The way I see it, if I go to the ATM and withdraw $1,000 and walk around Central Park at night counting it, it's not gonna be a surprise that I get robbed. I didn't deserve to get robbed because it's my right to count my money and I didn't do any "wrong" but obviously I coulda been smarter about it.

Thoughts?

Article for reference:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footb ... -1.1882655

[Zanchief]

But he's providing no specific solution to the problem. He doesn't even know what she said to set him off. We don't know what happened. He's assuming she set him off, but why? Is his advice even worth anything? Is there any evidence that the meekness of woman would reduce the instances of violence, as absurd as that idea is? You equate it to walking around central park with a wad of money, but it isn't really like that. It goes beyond simple reason. You're saying woman should be mindful of the way they interact with all men at all times, because it could set them off.

[Jay]

But he's providing no specific solution to the problem. He doesn't even know what she said to set him off. We don't know what happened. He's assuming she set him off, but why? Is his advice even worth anything? Is there any evidence that the meekness of woman would reduce the instances of violence, as absurd as that idea is? You equate it to walking around central park with a wad of money, but it isn't really like that. It goes beyond simple reason. You're saying woman should be mindful of the way they interact with all men at all times, because it could set them off.

Well no, he's not providing a specific solution. There isn't one that exists really. What he said on air was that he was withholding judgement on the Ray Rice thing because he doesn't know what she MIGHT have said to provoke him. That's where the shitstorm started.

The statement he made is one that blames the victim but I don't think that's necessarily what he meant. I think the overall message is that if you're gonna have an encounter with this person, and you know how they might react since you're dating them, married to them whatever, maybe you should be careful and not provoke their wrong doing. When I say "careful" I mean, hey, if you guys get in an argument don't tell him you're gonna fuck all his friends and dare him to hit you. Even if that is what happened, it's not her fault that he became violent and lost control and hit her, however, she probably could have avoided it by thinking it through. I don't think that's the case with every woman and man. It's certainly case by case.

[Zanchief]

Why are we speculating about her behaviour? All we know is what he did. Maybe she's been feeding him steroids in his corn flakes every morning and that made him lose control. I warn all women to stop feeding their men steroids in their corn flakes immediately, just in case that's what happened. Not saying she's at fault, but if she’s been messing with his cereal, you know, she should have used better judgement.

[brinstar]

he doesn't know what she MIGHT have said to provoke him.

you're allowing this to matter

[Tikker]

.

[Jay]

he doesn't know what she MIGHT have said to provoke him.

you're allowing this to matter

Like I said, I think the way Stephen phrased it does blame the victim, but I also don't think that's what he necessarily meant to do. I don't run down the streets of LA screaming nigger for good reason but if I did would I deserve a beatdown or worse? Is it my fault? And if I received a beatdown for doing that and you told me I should have not done that, are you blaming the victim? Beatdowns seldom rain down from the sky for 0 reason. Just saying.

EDIT: Also your quoted text is a summary of what Stephen A Smith said and doesn't reflect my opinion on it. I think Ray Rice should have a harsher punishment for what he did regardless of what she said. The debate topic for me is, where do we draw the line between advising someone to think before they speak vs blaming the victim for the crime committed against them.

[Jay]

Also I'll be totally honest here. I'm a big fan of Stephen A Smith so I could be entirely biased. I dunno if he's a great caster or an ok caster but next to Skip Bayless he looks like a great caster.

[brinstar]

well ESPN just suspended him so

though i suspect we would differ in our answers, the question of "where's the line" is nevertheless a cogent one

that being said i don't think the example you provided is a good analogy because there's a huge difference between domestic violence and nondomestic violence. in other words, i think it's fair to say only an idiot would stroll through compton shouting nigga this and nigga that and not expect to get hassled (or worse) - but within the boundaries of an intimate relationship i don't think there's anything that could possibly justify knocking your partner out cold and dragging her around a casino lobby no matter what s/he said

did SAS blame the victim? yep. did he mean to? i'm not willing to make that call, exactly, but the underlying problem we should be looking at is how easy it was for that response to just slip out. it's a lot like how cops ask rape victims what they were wearing or whether they were drunk. we're allowing those things to matter when they really shouldn't. i think society as a whole is starting to awaken to the realities of the plethora of ways women are oppressed (and lol if you think they're not), but blaming the victim is still way too natural at this early stage to be able to point to any real progress

[Jay]

Am I the only person that thinks it's fucked that SAS got punished harder than Ray Rice?

[brinstar]

nope

if i ran the NFL rice would have a lifetime ban

[Gypsiyee]

I tend to agree with Jay here. I don't know about the football thing so I can't speak to that, but okay, RL example..

female friend and male friend are a couple. they got into an argument. it escalates to her belittling a lot, they yell back and forth. she then punches him in the nuts. instinctually, he pushes her away. she falls down. she then stands up and starts going off saying she can't believe he would put his hands on her, she drives away and says she can't be with him ever again and can't trust him anymore because she doesn't trust him not to hurt her daughter. male friend is not at all a violent person, and they have been together for a year. it is now to a point where he assumes all blame and feels horribly about who he is and that he deserved to be left.

i'm not a dude so i don't know what being punched in the nuts feels like, but I'm of the opinion that if you want to hit someone, you should expect to get hit back. You want to rally for female equality, then be equal in all areas. she punched him in the nuts. she hit first. he pushed, didn't hit. that makes it as much her fault as his in my eyes.

maybe this makes me an anti feminist. i don't know, but i don't much care because i'm a woman and that's my right. I don't believe in double standards. no one should be laying hands on another person, male or female. if you're gonna whine and cry that you're a battered woman, you better actually BE a battered woman, because there are real victims out there that don't need to be invalidated by your silly unimportant nonsense that you brought on yourself. and that's what tends to happen. it's girl who cried wolf. there are so many frivolous claims that the real ones become "yeah, whatever" because these women who are abusers themselves scream from the hilltops for attention with bullshit claims. it's selfish and unfair to real victims of domestic violence.

[Zanchief]

Why are we all assuming this woman is guilty of anything? That's what I don't understand. Why is now the appropriate time to talk about equality? His comments are insensitive because there is no cause to blame the victim in the case.

A woman gets raped, and the topic of discussion should be if she asked for it? No no no, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying THIS girl asked for it, I just think we should, as a people, have a dialogue about girls who ask for it...at this time...unrelated to, you know, the topic that sparks this whole thing...I'm sure you didn't ask for it though...

That is what this boils down to. Of course woman can incite a person to violence. Still doesn’t make it right, and it still shouldn’t be the topic of discussion in defense of a man who brutally beat someone. It shifts the topic away from anything constructive. If it came out that she did incite him to violence, it still wouldn’t excuse his behaviour, but then, sure I could see the topic being relevant.

Anyway Bill Burr pretty much nailed this topic.

[Gypsiyee]

Well I'm not assuming, like I said I don't know anything about that case because I don't follow the NFL. I was just speaking more in a general sense.

Cases of rape can be pretty ambiguous too, and there are women out there who abuse the word just to start trouble for someone who rejected them, etc. I'm not saying this is the common case by any means, but I think it's unfortunate that people are allowed to get away with that. People like the woman in Thin Line Between Love and Hate do exist. My take on it has more to do with the invalidation of victims who truly do go through a traumatic experience; there are women out there who ride the coat tails of these victims and that's upsetting to me. I've known victims, and I've known non-victims who portray themselves as victims, and it's pretty sickening.

I'm not saying hitting is justified just by simply inciting someone with words, and I'm not saying a brutal beating is EVER justified (if that's what happened in this case, obviously my stance isn't applicable to that.) I'm saying if you lay your hands on someone, you don't get to cry brutality when you get hit back. I've seen male victims who are devout subscribers to the idea that you should never hit a woman, and get the shit beat out of them by a woman who thinks she's invincible to prosecution. I'm just saying, there are people who lie and manipulate. not all women are delicate little flowers. I believe that if I throw a punch, I better be able to take one. I believe in equality, and that goes both ways.

That isn't to say it should just be assumed that the woman is lying. I just think snap judgments are dangerous in any case. Domestic violence is a serious issue requiring serious investigation, and often I think we just assume if a claim is made it's instinct to assume the claim is the truth. And in many ways I think that's the right thing to do.. I just wish we weren't so media flooded and that cases could be investigated before they're made common knowledge for people to jump to conclusions.

[Jay]

I think Zan and I are thinking the same thing but the words are coming off wrong here.

So, what happened:

1) Ray Rice knocks his gf unconscious and drags her off an elevator
2) It gets discussed on First Take by SAS
3) In response to what happened, SAS says, I can't say since I don't know what she MIGHT have to said to provoke it
4) Backlash
5) He goes on twitter and says women should be careful what they say as to not provoke the wrong doing of men
6) More backlash
7) He apologizes
8) He's suspended for a week from First Take and ESPN Radio

My viewpoint:

1) Ray Rice needs a much much much harsher punishment
2) Violence in general is bad
3) Think before you speak and act, especially if you know someone is prone to an outburst like that. Don't poke the bear.
4) If you have a concern that someone is prone to violent outbursts, prob stay away from them in the first place.
5) What SAS said on the air was blaming the victim. It was inadvertent and I think his message on twitter was intended differently and his heart is in the right place but he executed very poorly.

My QUESTION:

When does the question of whether better dialogue and action could have been used to avoid violence become blaming the victim? Where's the line?

And yes, this does matter because it's my thread and it is what I'm asking. Everything with SAS and Ray Rice is simply explanation to why I'm asking my question. I am not asking what RR's gf did or said to get her hit. That's irrelevant. He should be punished regardless of that. I just want to know if its victim blaming to advise her to act in a way that was less provoking. <---Again, that's my QUESTION. I'm not saying she SHOULD have said less or more or something different because I don't know what happened. I'm simply asking is it wrong to examine the situation by looking at what the victim did that got the attacker to that point.

And yes, Bill Burr is spot on and is basically echoing what I think.

[Reynaldo]

1) I can't stand SAS. Ever since he blasted people as racist for criticizing cam newton as a QB, then in the same breath ripped tebow in the exact same way, I haven't had any respect for the dude. He's a race baiter and sensationalist, which I get on first take is what they want, but dude's opinion is worthless to me.

That said, I do agree with OP that situations like this can't be blindly assumed that the eventual attacker is the only person with blame. What makes this case stand out is the video. If it had never been public and the story was that Rice and spouse had an altercation with non-lethal violence, but we didn't see him dragging her out of the elevator, it would be news but a one day story / ho hum another athlete raging on his spouse, then done.

The kicker is that they're still together so I have no problem at all with the 2 game suspension. It's way more than the law/courts are doing to him and since she's not filing charges or separating, it's obviously not a big deal to them. Why should it be a big deal to me?

[Jay]

Whether its a big deal to you or not is your business.

The main point of this thread is my question: When does the question of whether better dialogue and action could have been used to avoid violence become blaming the victim? Where's the line?

This thread isn't specifically about SAS or Ray Rice. I just used their example because that's what sparked my original conversation in the first place.

[Reynaldo]

The line moves.

We have become a guilty until proven innocent society.

Reminds me of jury duty a few weeks back. The lawyer said to us while weeding us out: if you see a cop pulled someone over on the side of the road, do you immediately wonder what the person did wrong? In the legal system you're SUPPOSED to question why the cop wrongfully pulled someone over, and it's up to him to prove beyond reasonable doubt his reason.

In this one isolated case, since we have viral video out showing him manhandling a woman, the line is razor thin and the outrage comes quickly. I would wager if the same thing happened but there was no video, there would be no suspension / outrage. People would just have their differing opinions as usual.

[Nusk]

the biggest take away from this story.,


the women stayed

for fucks sake she even married the guy

so yea what he did was wrong, but as i tell my daughter. If a guy makes you feel afraid you run and you run far

[Kramer]

If a guy makes you feel afraid you run and you run far

agreed

[brinstar]

it's easy for dudes to say that but abusive relationships are pretty complicated and it's not always as simple as it sounds to "just leave". your partner knows where you work, where your friends and family live, etc and not everybody has friends out of town to run to

and shit sometimes not even that works - there was some woman here in LNK who had fled to a battered women's shelter to escape her abusive husband, but then went missing on the day before thanksgiving. people were hoping she had just GTFO'd - until yesterday when they found her body in a storage unit ;\

[Zanchief]

and shit sometimes not even that works - there was some woman here in LNK who had fled to a battered women's shelter to escape her abusive husband, but then went missing on the day before thanksgiving. people were hoping she had just GTFO'd - until yesterday when they found her body in a storage unit ;\

Man, I wonder if she said anything to set him off like that. Not saying she did, but it's a possibility.

[Harrison]

^ I smell thick, dripping, sarcasm.