2016 elections.

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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:00 pm

Zanchief wrote:So it was a tactical decision to support Sanders? So if it was clear from the get go that Hillary had a better chance to beat trump you would have supported her? Of course not. Keep moving those goal posts though.


i've made it perfectly clear that i do not choose candidates based on whether i think they could beat other candidates, so no. if a multitude of polls showed HRC was up 12 points on trump and sanders was only up 1 point, i would still support sanders, because i do not vote out of fear.

i can use smaller words if you think that would help you keep up
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Zanchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:21 pm

You just advocated Clinton supporters should have supported Sanders because he allegedly had a better shot at beating Trump. You don't have to use smaller words, but if don't want to contradict yourself, you might want to try different ones.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:50 pm

jesus christ

me saying "sanders polls higher against trump than clinton, so if you clintonites are really that afraid of trump you should come over to our side" does not require me to switch my support if a situation arose where the polls were suddenly reversed. it merely takes that argument away from me.

that's because the argument itself is predicated on whether the person it's being used on considers defeating trump the #1 priority above all else. as this criterion does not apply to me, neither does your flawed narrative.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Zanchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:56 pm

And I never said beating trump should be anyone's priority. Just don't bitch and moan about the SC when you could have done something about it.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:00 pm

now who's moving goalposts lmao

how can i infer "doing something about it" means anything but prioritizing trump's defeat?
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Zanchief » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:58 pm

Do what you want. Not my country. I just know you'll be the first to complain about Legalizing Marijuana, Assisted Suicide, Gay Marriage, Abortion or any number of other things that will get shittier in your country. I'm not saying you should priorities trumps defeat, I'm just pointing out the opportunity cost of your moral outrage.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Harrison » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:06 pm

I don't want to be an American anymore. My country is dumb as fuck.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Jay » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:42 pm

If you vote for anyone other than the person you think is best for the job, you're part of the problem. If the majority of American voters think Trump is the best man for the job, he SHOULD win. At least he ran a legit campaign. The vile shit he says is honest. As a country, we're only as strong as our weakest middle American links. I'm gonna write Bernie in when I vote. The lesser of the 2 evils between Trump and Clinton isn't very clear.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Harrison » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:02 pm

Honest by what metric?

He has lied more than any other presidential candidate in recorded American History. That isn't honesty. That's pathetic.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Harrison » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:03 pm

I feel like voting for Clinton sends the message, "it's okay to cheat, suppress votes, and buy influence in American Politics."

I'm not convinced it's worth sending that message yet.

That flies in the face of my principles.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Jay » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:51 am

Harrison wrote:Honest by what metric?

He has lied more than any other presidential candidate in recorded American History. That isn't honesty. That's pathetic.


Hilary Clinton says, "Let's get our middle class back to work" but is a corporate shill.

Donald Trump says, "Fuck Mexicans, Muslims and women. I'm gonna solve every problem. How? Shut up."

Donald is telling what he believes is the truth. Hilary is lying her ass off.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Arlos » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:35 am

Jay wrote:
Harrison wrote:Honest by what metric?

He has lied more than any other presidential candidate in recorded American History. That isn't honesty. That's pathetic.


Hilary Clinton says, "Let's get our middle class back to work" but is a corporate shill.

Donald Trump says, "Fuck Mexicans, Muslims and women. I'm gonna solve every problem. How? Shut up."

Donald is telling what he believes is the truth. Hilary is lying her ass off.


And this is supposed to convince me to vote for Donald, when what he's saying is reprehensible? Him believing it makes it worse, not better.

Yeah, Hillary is a shill and all, but much as I dislike the status quo (which presumably she will try and keep), it's better than the blighted dystopian hellscape that Trump would bring us to.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Zanchief » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:06 am

Jesus Christ people are entitled to their beliefs but beliefs when you're making up facts...whatever I'm done with this thread. Liberals and Conservatives in your country both do the same damn thing...make shit up to support your beliefs.

Don't bother responding. I'm not going to open this thread again.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:40 am

good, get out, all you did was shit up this thread with stupid trolling and obtusity

anyway, lost a chunk of respect for liz warren yesterday. i get it that as a dem she has to pay lip service or things might be frosty when she seeks reelection but damn for someone who's supposed to be this anti-corruption progressive superstar it was hard to hear her speak of her support for such a corrupt and unprogressive candidate

gonna be even more let down if she agrees to hop on the ticket as VP, not least of which because she can still do good in the senate where she's at (which is a decent consolation now that they've thrown the killswitch on bernie)


finally re: election integrity

~02/05/08 - 4,794,846 people vote in the california democratic primary
~05/26/15 - sanders declares candidacy
~2015-2016 - "record number of new people" register, shattering all-time state registration % record
~06/06/16 - AP calls the race for clinton
~06/07/16 - 3,442,623 people vote in the california democratic primary

this represents a 28% drop in voter turnout (1,352,224 fewer votes) despite record registration

don't tell me the press can't/doesn't influence elections
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Reynaldo » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:49 am

This election is nuts. I have a feeling the dems are playing this right though. dragging hillary through the mud now will make sure the populous will be bored hearing about them come election day and not consider her track record as much as the probably should. I bet they have a bombshell to drop on trump planned for a week or two before november so it will be fresh in folks heads.

Hillary wins in a landslide.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Drem » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:36 pm

Because Warren is swallowing her pride and doing what's right: helping stop Trump. Sometimes you have to take what you can get. You can't always.... well, I think the Rolling Stones wrote a song about it

Throwing your vote away at this point because you think it's sacred is ultimately just selfish. You know what could happen. It's not what the majority wants. There is no majority, there's a big 3-way split this time

I think seeing how big of an impact Bernie's movement has made is really amazing. Seeing Obama take him in to chat about the future of this movement gives me a little hope. I also think some of his policies or ideas will ultimately make it into Hillary's platform. She'll have to do it to not alienate all of his followers. I think he'll be back in 2020 with a win

In the end tho I'm with Bill Burr: it doesn't matter who the president is
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Jay » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:12 pm

Arlos wrote:
Jay wrote:
Harrison wrote:Honest by what metric?

He has lied more than any other presidential candidate in recorded American History. That isn't honesty. That's pathetic.


Hilary Clinton says, "Let's get our middle class back to work" but is a corporate shill.

Donald Trump says, "Fuck Mexicans, Muslims and women. I'm gonna solve every problem. How? Shut up."

Donald is telling what he believes is the truth. Hilary is lying her ass off.


And this is supposed to convince me to vote for Donald, when what he's saying is reprehensible? Him believing it makes it worse, not better.

Yeah, Hillary is a shill and all, but much as I dislike the status quo (which presumably she will try and keep), it's better than the blighted dystopian hellscape that Trump would bring us to.


Please don't get it twisted and think that I would endorse that fuck knuckle. It's not supposed to convince you to do anything. Please vote for who you think should be the President. I will do that when I write Bernie's name in. If Trump gets elected, despite being a complete and utter fuckbag, he will not have stolen any votes or defrauded his opponents in anyway. He convinced retard America to vote for him. He did a much better job of that then anyone did of convincing me to vote for Hilary. Sorry, but people need to know that if you're gonna try to steal the presidency with voter suppression and media bullshit that it's not gonna work.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:30 pm

Drem wrote:Throwing your vote away at this point because you think it's sacred is ultimately just selfish. You know what could happen. It's not what the majority wants. There is no majority, there's a big 3-way split this time

I think seeing how big of an impact Bernie's movement has made is really amazing. Seeing Obama take him in to chat about the future of this movement gives me a little hope. I also think some of his policies or ideas will ultimately make it into Hillary's platform. She'll have to do it to not alienate all of his followers. I think he'll be back in 2020 with a win


to the first point: yes and no. if i lived in a place like ohio or florida or virginia or michigan where it might actually matter, you would have a perfectly valid point, and i would have a much harder time weighing the sacredness of my vote against the well-being of the nation. but living in nebraska, which is guaranteed to go trump by ~35 points, my vote ends up in the trash bin no matter whether i waste it on clinton, johnson, stein, or even vermin supreme. giving my vote to clinton won't do anyone any good, but giving my vote to stein actually helps the green party, which is the only party i truly care about. if stein gets 5% of the vote she'll unlock federal funding and automatic ballot access in all 50 states for 2020, and then maybe we can finally start to undermine the 2-party stranglehold

to the second point: i'm wary of what will happen to the sanders movement in the future. the huge list of individual donors and the primarily grassroots nature of his campaign support can either maintain its momentum as an outspoken force for anti-corruption and horizontal small-D democracy - or it can be appropriated by the DNC and turned into something hollow and subservient (as with what happened to the obama train after he first took office). i see it going either way from its current crossroads, honestly, but i also think/hope that if enough berniecrats either stick to their guns or don't find the DNC's bait appetizing enough, they'll walk. maybe to the green party, maybe to a new progressive alliance, but walk we will.

as for the convention, sanders has forced his way into the discussion for sure. in particular, the five (out of fifteen) slots he was allowed to pick for the national platform committee went to strong and brilliant progressive activists like keith ellison, cornel west, and bill mckibben, as well as elijah cummings and a few others - even though HRC and DWS mostly picked lobbyists for the other ten slots. even so, despite the presence of lobbyists, it'll be a strongly progressive committee, so he'll definitely get concessions at the convention. the real question is whether there will be any teeth left in the planks his organization forces into the platform, or if they'll just be nonbinding feelgood gimmes that they can just ignore
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Harrison » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:32 pm

Voting, I feel, for the person who is the problem; to avoid another larger problem, is throwing away your vote.

Your vote should send a message. My message won't be, "It's okay that you quite literally suppressed the votes of innumerable millions in order to steal the candidacy. I'll vote for you because if I don't, the terrrrrrrists win!" (It's the same tired fear tactic played by the Right, and it won't work on me.)

It's not being selfish. It's not kowtowing to the fucking corporatist machine that just fucked me raw with a smile.

Also, Fuck Liz Warren. I'm voting that cunt out immediately. She can say she's against whatever she wants, but then goes and publicly puts forth support for the very thing she's against? Scum.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Jay » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:04 am

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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Drem » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:57 pm

I just don't agree. I admire y'alls passion and reasoning but it's still national suicide. It's just saying "fuck it". Just like people supporting Trump are just saying "fuck it, fuck them all"

Hillary is, unfortunately, best suited for this job. I'll use Louis CK's analogy that goes something like this:

The US government is a dangerous, volatile thing. Imagine we're hiring a pilot. We have Hillary who says "Look, here are the thousands of flights i've done. I had some good flights and some bad flights, but I have years of experience"

Then you got Bernie, who thinks this plane should fly everyone right to their houses. Everyone should use the plane. "How will we do this? I'm not really sure, but it needs to be done"

Then you got Trump who is like

-"Hey I'm gonna fly the hell out of this plane. I'm gonna fly it so good you're gonna be in shock. You see Hillary over there? She's never flown a plane before"

-"Yes I have"

-"No you haven't"


It's stupid. Bernie would be so awesome, and i really think he'll be back next election, or someone at least like him. We don't ever need a Trump. He's not even a politician. He bankrupts everything he touches. At least Hillary has hands on experience with our fucked-up gov't
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:05 pm

along those lines, best bite-size analysis i've heard comparing clinton and sanders came from robert reich:

"hillary is the most qualified candidate for the system we have now, but bernie is the most qualified candidate for the system we need to build"

seems pretty accurate to me. i think if you dig deep enough, the principle split between the clinton camp and the sanders camp seems to be whether the system we have is working as intended or if it needs to be overhauled, respectively


in other news, california results are not certified yet, there are still over a million provisional ballots to count and bernie has already flipped two counties. would love to see what happens when CA officials are like "uh yeah actually he destroyed her in cali, sorry for the premature shit" a week before the convention

not to mention assange (wikileaks guy) has announced there's another email batch about to be released that "guarantees" a clinton indictment

this primary season has been quite a ride and it ain't over yet
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby leah » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:09 pm

Drem wrote:I just don't agree. I admire y'alls passion and reasoning but it's still national suicide. It's just saying "fuck it". Just like people supporting Trump are just saying "fuck it, fuck them all"

Hillary is, unfortunately, best suited for this job. I'll use Louis CK's analogy that goes something like this:

The US government is a dangerous, volatile thing. Imagine we're hiring a pilot. We have Hillary who says "Look, here are the thousands of flights i've done. I had some good flights and some bad flights, but I have years of experience"

Then you got Bernie, who thinks this plane should fly everyone right to their houses. Everyone should use the plane. "How will we do this? I'm not really sure, but it needs to be done"

Then you got Trump who is like

-"Hey I'm gonna fly the hell out of this plane. I'm gonna fly it so good you're gonna be in shock. You see Hillary over there? She's never flown a plane before"

-"Yes I have"

-"No you haven't"


It's stupid. Bernie would be so awesome, and i really think he'll be back next election, or someone at least like him. We don't ever need a Trump. He's not even a politician. He bankrupts everything he touches. At least Hillary has hands on experience with our fucked-up gov't


i hate to say it, but this is where i'm at, too. bernie is my political spirit animal, but the idea of having drumpf in office -- even if it proves the point of how broken the system is -- is so scary to me that i literally get anxiety about it. chest tightness, lightheadedness, the whole nine.

i'm really at a loss.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby Jay » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:39 pm

leah wrote:
Drem wrote:I just don't agree. I admire y'alls passion and reasoning but it's still national suicide. It's just saying "fuck it". Just like people supporting Trump are just saying "fuck it, fuck them all"

Hillary is, unfortunately, best suited for this job. I'll use Louis CK's analogy that goes something like this:

The US government is a dangerous, volatile thing. Imagine we're hiring a pilot. We have Hillary who says "Look, here are the thousands of flights i've done. I had some good flights and some bad flights, but I have years of experience"

Then you got Bernie, who thinks this plane should fly everyone right to their houses. Everyone should use the plane. "How will we do this? I'm not really sure, but it needs to be done"

Then you got Trump who is like

-"Hey I'm gonna fly the hell out of this plane. I'm gonna fly it so good you're gonna be in shock. You see Hillary over there? She's never flown a plane before"

-"Yes I have"

-"No you haven't"


It's stupid. Bernie would be so awesome, and i really think he'll be back next election, or someone at least like him. We don't ever need a Trump. He's not even a politician. He bankrupts everything he touches. At least Hillary has hands on experience with our fucked-up gov't


i hate to say it, but this is where i'm at, too. bernie is my political spirit animal, but the idea of having drumpf in office -- even if it proves the point of how broken the system is -- is so scary to me that i literally get anxiety about it. chest tightness, lightheadedness, the whole nine.

i'm really at a loss.


And that is where we're at an impasse. I mean, I respect where you're coming from but all the same I know I will be able to survive this and I'd rather not vote against my own beliefs. If people stick to their beliefs I think we'll see an amazing president in our lifetime, even if we get 4 years of trump.
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Re: 2016 elections.

Postby brinstar » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:49 am

there's lots of accusations of privilege flying around lately

people who are refusing to back hillary are being told "it's only your privilege that allows you to cling to your values and your radicalism and write in sanders or stein, because a trump presidency isn't a threat to you the way it would be to the browns and the poors etc"

but on the other hand people who back hillary are being told "it's only your privilege that allows you to cling to vapid incrementalism and the same neoliberal policies that have decimated the browns and the poors etc"

the hard thing is i don't really think either stance is completely wrong :ugh:
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