Need reality check here

[Zanchief]

What the christ are you people going on about. All I'm saying is it doesn't change what they've done.

Person X runs really fast.

Person X kills a nun.

Person X doesn’t run as fast anymore.

That is what you're saying. I'm saying that is not the case. If you objectively look at the situation, their merits have not changed. If you can only look at the persons work through the lens (bias) of their personal life, that's fine. I'm not saying your wrong, morally, but you are wrong objectively.

[Zanchief]

Also, Lance Armstrong isn't a good example, because the thing people hate him for is the reason people used to like him. Obviously if you're a cheat and a liar that impacts the work you did.

I feel like derailing this into a Polanski isn't a rapist/pedophile thread but maybe someone should just bait me in another thread for that.

Another example. I think Kevin Garnett is a dill hole. That has nothing to do with his ability to play basketball. I think he's a whiner and a coward and a useless human being. He's also a naturally gifted athlete and one of the best Forwards to ever play basketball. One has nothing to do with the other. Remove emotions from the equation and you can see the situation clearly. If you want to add filters, so be it, that isn’t clarity.

[Drem]

Person X runs really fast.

Person X kills a nun.

Person X doesn’t run as fast anymore.

That is what you're saying. I'm saying that is not the case.

no one's actually saying that. quote me where someone said that in this entire thread anywhere

and on the other hand, you're sort of coming across like you don't mind if people are murderers or rapists if they set some sort of professional standard in sports or whatever medium, and that's pretty inhuman. you're removing the personal aspect when the whole point of the thread was asking for personal opinions. i'm not the hall of fame, i don't care about OJ Simpson, sorry. i'm not arguing that he wasn't a good running back tho, or that i don't love a lot of Roman Polanski films, or whatever. but if someone asks me about him i'll say "ya Knife in the Water is awesome, too bad he raped a little girl". all of these people did it to themselves, there's no reason they shouldn't be called out for it.

no, it doesn't change the fact that these people did good things in the past. no one's saying it does. but it should change the public's perception of these people, yet it doesn't seem to and that's what's scary to me

but really in the end i'm pretty sure no one here would actually support murderers or rapists and we're just arguing about it because it's the NT and nothing ever makes sense here

[Zanchief]

on the other hand, you're sort of coming across like you don't mind if people are murderers or rapists if they set some sort of professional standard in sports or whatever medium, and that's pretty inhuman.

Oh I definitely never said that.

Whats the point of the thread? To get angry about rape and child murder.

Quick poll, who's against child murder? That's a productive thread. Obviously everyone is against it. Spazz clearly said he doesn't like Chris Benoit's wrestling because he doesn't like the person. Gyps and the peanut gallery all agreed. His wrestling never changed, only your perception of his wrestling changed.

[brinstar]

hey guys what's going on in this thr

[Drem]

i know you never said that, but that's a way you could be interpreted, same way you're misinterpreting the OP

Anyway thats the question am I a dick for baggin on dudes who talk bout Benoit as a legend or are they right thats its ok to be a fan of his work ?

[Jay]

We're arguing about 2 totally separate points here. Both valid. There doesn't really need to be an argument.

Me and Zan are saying talented people who have committed heinous atrocities are still talented. That's the statement. I'm not saying I look at them and think "OH SNAP WHAT A TALENT! ps he killed folks". I'm just saying the fact is, talent is talent despite what they've done.

You all are saying when talented people do horrendous things, you don't separate the person from their heinous act and you see them for what they did. That's not wrong either. When I think of Chris Benoit the first thing that pops up in my head is roid rage and a murder suicide involving his child.

Now if you ask me about how many different setups are for the Crippler Crossface, you're damn right I'm gonna be looking up Chris Benoit because that was his shit. His atrocities don't change that. He is still a point of reference for a lot of people interested in wrestling.

[Jay]

And Spazz I'm totally ok with you doggin on Benoit but when you're friends say he was a great wrestler they aren't wrong. Doggin on them I would question.

[Arlos]

You also need to allow for the possibility of personal growth and change in some cases. Who here HASN'T done something boneheadedly stupid when we were younger? Not allowing for the possibility that someone might repent what they did, atone, and change their life so as to never potentially do it again is unfair, in my opinion.

-Arlos

[Ganzo]

You also need to allow for the possibility of personal growth and change in some cases. Who here HASN'T done something boneheadedly stupid when we were younger? Not allowing for the possibility that someone might repent what they did, atone, and change their life so as to never potentially do it again is unfair, in my opinion.

-Arlos

How do you atone for killing your own family?

[Spazz]

I guess it just bugs me to see people talk about his wrestling. I dont ever want to talk about him or see him again what he did made me sick. It looks like even on the nt its a divisive issue. I cant enjoy what he did because I know what he did and thats really what im saying. I feel that whenever I tell my buddies something is the shit I give it my seal of approval and it reflects on me. I dont want that kind of bad JuJu on me.

Benoit could wrestle his ass off but he doesnt deserve to be remembered for that he deserves to be forgotten for what he did. Also my point was that to me it shows low moral character to cheer for a man when you know that he did that kind of thing. All the other shit that has come ups was a distraction but that is what I was originally trying to say.

I know im white trash but I do try to have strong morals.

[Drem]

The fact that the WWE stopped mentioning him almost immediately after the details were released says a lot about this whole argument imo

Dunno what there really is to argue about. Sure, he was great, but he deserves to be forgotten, like Spazz said

[Spazz]

Yea Benoit is never ever mentioned in any wwe programing and its my understanding that he has been edited out of older re releases. Far as I know hes the only guy to ever get treated that way. Wrestling is kind of an odd thing to like. I love to watch it but when you see how badly it fucks peoples lives up it almost makes you not want to.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1483 ... superstars

I cant believe how many of these guys die young. Most of them from the same thing. To those of you who watched when you were a kid you open that up you will find almost every guy you can think of from that period is dead.

Last few years wwe has really been putting together a safety net for these guys rehab programs , wellness policies, a lot of moves that blast the head and neck are now banned or only pulled out for rare occasions by the top performers and so on so maybe this current generation wont all die at 40.

[Jay]

The fact that the WWE stopped mentioning him almost immediately after the details were released says a lot about this whole argument imo

Dunno what there really is to argue about. Sure, he was great, but he deserves to be forgotten, like Spazz said

That much I can agree with. Like I said the talent hasn't changed but if you choose to forget who Chris Benoit was, talent or not, because of the atrocity he committed then that's fair and I see no issue there.

[Jay]

You also need to allow for the possibility of personal growth and change in some cases. Who here HASN'T done something boneheadedly stupid when we were younger? Not allowing for the possibility that someone might repent what they did, atone, and change their life so as to never potentially do it again is unfair, in my opinion.

-Arlos

Can't really undo murder/suicide though but yeah I get it.

Atonement doesn't mean forgiveness though. Atonement is a responsibility. I truly believe that Michael Vick is currently atoning for what he did and has suffered a great deal for what he did based on what I've read about his life during and after his criminal charges. Despite that though what he did is unforgivable and him spending the rest of his life working with programs that save animals is the least he can do. He's another murderous piece of shit paying the price for his actions and I'm glad if he feels responsible now and has grown from it all but that will never absolve him from all the pain, suffering and death he helped cause.

[Lyion]

This is one of those rare times where Arlos and I are on the same page. I completely hate pro wrestling and see nothing redeeming about it. More power to those who enjoy it, but everything about it irks the heck out of me.

Anyways, one can admit talent but still believe said person is a scumbag. I do that every time I see Obama on TV.

[Spazz]

We all have things that irk the hell out of us. Im into people yelling beefing and hitting each other so im drawn to programs that involve those kind of things. Im not really a sporty guy but I enjoy mma and pro wrestling a great deal and rarely miss either. I also cant stand sitcoms and in general anything with a laugh track or reality tv. In short I think almost all tv is crap.

[Lyion]

Well, we have something in common because I hate anything with a laughtracks and sitcoms too. I generally watch sports, movies, drama, or documentaries. No reality TV here.

I do wonder about my choices sometime as I was sitting watching a documentary on the Sahara last night on History and all the ads were marketed for people in their 90s a la magic lift chairs, drugs, and food....

[Tossica]

Laugh track kills it for me too. I can watch a comedy show as long as there are no commercials and it doesn't have a laugh track.

I haven't liked wrestling since I was about 7 years old. I do love MMA and boxing though.

[leah]

reality tv is one of the worst things we have ever created. 90% of tv is shit now. what a pile of steaming donkey dung. bleh.

i hate laugh tracks, too, though i make an exception for HIMYM. really the only sitcoms i watch are happy endings (which is SO SO GOOD, but is probably going to be cancelled because ABC is stupid), apt 23 (will also be cancelled but that's probably more deserving), modern family, and suburgatory (also very good if you give it a shot). i like cougar town but keep forgetting to watch it now that it's on TBS so that's a problem. OH and parks & rec, which is just a true delight and also made me have naughty dreams about adam scott, whoops.

[leah]

oh and in an attempt to get back on topic: a friend and i used to watch wrestling in high school because we both had ladyboners for the rock, obvs.

[Jay]

I never even noticed the laugh track in HIMYM lol

[leah]

uh oh, did i just shatter your glass???

[Tossica]

Any show that needs to tell me when to laugh is bullshit. I don't mind live studio audiences but that ridiculous laughing at every single fucking thing any of the characters say drives me up a wall.

[Jay]

I'm watching last Monday's episode again and now I can't stop noticing the laugh track. You just ruined HIMYM for me leah.