namelesstavern.net

If you don't repost your every stance, belief, or idea en masse three times daily the goldfish trolls forget you have at all.

You're mistaken about the reference to wine and bread converting to the flesh and blood of Jesus. It's figurative. The flesh and blood have meanings. I've never met a Christian of any sect that believes in the statement you made. There could be some wacko sect out there though.

Arlos, I'd love for you to go into detail. I'm honestly curious. Don't tell me you're afraid of people making fun of your religion. Like that never happens to the Christians on the board...

wine and bread are supposed to represent flesh and blood and remind you of the sacrifice jesus made for your sins.

yes i was raised catholic. no i do not practice anymore.

actually, Catholics believe in something called transubstantiation (changing of substance), which refers to:

Transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio) is the change of the substance of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ occurring in the Eucharist according to the teaching of some Christian Churches, including the Roman Catholic Church.

isnt that what i said?

no. you said they represent flesh and blood. the belief in transsubstantiation means exactly that - a changing of substance NOT representational but actual physical (substance) change. It is one primary reason that priests are the ones who handle the sacraments and everyone can't just wander up there and grab it.
Protestants do not, as far as i know, believe in transubstantiation, which is one large division between them and the catholic church. to protestants it is purely representational.

Yep, Catholic teaching is that they are literally transformed. Remember, I made it all the way through Confirmation before I quit, so I got the full gamut of Catholic indoctrinations before I threw it off and started thinking for myself.

-Arlos

and you still came up with Wicca as the way stuff works?

Sometimes people instead of thinking "my religion is the way thinks work" they instead think "my religion is the way I'd like things to be".

This entire day is made of "wtf".

I agree with Jay on this one. (Not about you, Arlos. People in general...)

Too many people think of religious beliefs as a magazine subscription.

"This sounds cool! I believe "this" now...because some of the other possible realities are kind of scary!"

They might actually "believe" this after awhile, but the reasons they came to believe these are pretty fucking pathetic and ridiculous.

Sure, it would be fucking wonderful if it was as easy as making a choice. It isn't. A religion can be wrong. Your personal beliefs can be wrong. The problem is no one can prove this.

Why yes, Tikker, I did. I did a fair bit of reading, plus talked to people I knew about it. The more I looked into it, the more I found that much of the beliefs espoused therein were ones I already believed in, so it wasn't a case of "Hey, I like this religion, I'll believe X, Y & Z now!", it was much more a case of "Hey, I believe X, Y & Z already, and here's a religion that ALSO believes that."

After all, for example, humanity is dualist, split into man and woman, why should the divine be different? Indeed, we all have a small spark of the divine within each one of us, and we can each find our own way to enlightenment, there is no one true absolute path for all people, any more than all people are identical to each other. I don't pray to Zeus or Odin or anything like that, ultimately there's the duality, but which can be manifested in a myriad of ways, because HUMANS are different in a myriad of ways. Well-known aspects such as The Green Man and the Mother are just that, aspects, that represent common themes among humans and nature that many people can relate to. They are not all of it though, any more than 1 mountain is all of a mountain range. Ultimately, we each have our own way of connecting to the divine, and the way I do it and the way I view the God and Goddess isn't going to be exactly the same as anyone else, because I'm not the same as anyone else.

So, after doing the reading and talking to people, I actually went to some circles, and FELT the energy and the interconnectedness of everyone celebrating, and that was that. I didn't convert so much as came home, if that makes any sense. (which I doubt it does to anyone else)

I know no one here will believe it, and that's fine, but I have felt energy get called up, get sent out, and the excess grounded back into earth. I have sat in a circle of a dozen people passing energy around from one person to the next in a ring, feeling almost like a big charge of static electricity, and every single person in that circle knew exactly where the energy was in the circle, so if it was a hallucination, it was a shared one, and happened while we were all stone cold sober.

I've gone to an outdoor festival for one of the major holidays, with the sky all gloomy and drizzling. I took part in a circle dance and the raising of a cone of energy, and as we directed it upward, literally a hole opened up in the clouds over the field we were in, and we were suddenly bathed in sunlight. After we were done, and grounded the energy back into the earth, the hole in the clouds closed right back up again. Heck, one time I had a female friend who would get terrible migraines that anti-migraine drugs would barely touch, and I stopped one cold using nothing but my voice and energy I channeled through me, through my hands, and into her.

Hell, most people don't even realize why circles are used to begin with. As an analogy, it would be a bad idea to record an acoustic a cappella record in a building with people using jackhammers, right? You'd go to some quiet sound proofed room to do it. That's all creating a circle is for, to create a clean quiet space, blocked off from outside influences and energy. There's a lot of tools and trappings that get used that look odd, I am sure, but ultimately, none of them are really necessary. Sure, they make things easier, and make for nice aesthetics and theatre, but still, all you really need is you. It's kinda like with Christianity, you don't NEED to be in someplace as gorgeous as Notre Dame cathedral, all you really need is a private place and time to do your praying, but if you had access to a Notre Dame, it sure would be nicer to use it, eh?

Anyway, I'm sure this'll sound crazy to a lot of people, and I'm sure I'll get a ton of people making fun of me, but that's life for you. I have my own way of worshiping and connecting, and it's not the same as anyone else's. That's the thing though, Wiccanism embraces and celebrates that diversity at its very core. That's one of the very few fundamental tenets: that we each have our own spiritual path, and we have to make our own way along it. That's why I can say I completely respect Christians, and their desire to follow their own spiritual path to their own interpretation of the divine, but not respect the institutional Churches, which try to force everyone into following in the exact same way and mold by enforcing rigid dogmatic doctrine.

Sorry for rambling and going on at such length, but someone did ask. Flame and insult away, I'm sure many of you can't wait. Don't worry, I doubt I'll be as open about something this personal on here again.

-Arlos

I totally respect what you're saying Arlos, and if that's what you believe in that's great.. what I'm confused about is why you're so opposed to Christianity if you have those beliefs. Christians have claimed to have the very same experiences, the feelings, the changes, etc.. but often times it seems you pawn them off as crazies.

I guess through the years I've become pretty much an Agnostic, after quite a few years of trying to find my own voice where it belonged and it didn't fit anywhere.. and that's fine. There are devout Christians who firmly stand in their beliefs, and while I don't agree.. that's fine too. You have yours, and that's fine too. What I've never understood is any member of any religion throwing anothers into question and basically completely discrediting the other when, in all reality, one sounds just as crazy as the next, and it's something that simply isn't one size fits all.

Faith is completely a matter of ones perspective, and when it comes to matters of something intangible, there is no right or wrong - you have to go on actual fact. A fact is something that cannot be denied, a fact is something that can be proven to every naked eye, regardless of who they are and where they've come from. Your beliefs in this regard are no more concrete than that of a Christian's, so I will say that I was a bit taken back to see your post as your arguments against Christianity have been almost 100% fact-based.

I fully respect your beliefs and what you've experienced, but I would be lying if I said I didn't feel a slight air of hypocrisy after reading what you wrote.

Arlos wrote:

After all, for example, humanity is dualist, split into man and woman, why should the divine be different?

why should there be a divine at all?


other than pirates of course

Arlos wrote:Yep, Catholic teaching is that they are literally transformed. Remember, I made it all the way through Confirmation before I quit, so I got the full gamut of Catholic indoctrinations before I threw it off and started thinking for myself.

-Arlos

psst did 1st thru 11th in catholic school. Only even heard this at Confirmation class. didnt pay much attention anyway cause the nun was a wench

A few members of my family learned that Gid went to Buddhist services while in the Army. They told me that they would disown us if he converted to Buddhism. We told them he did, but they didnt follow through

I really don't get the exclusionary practices of some(most?) religions

My dad's family is catholic, and when he married a non catholic, his own mother refused to attend the wedding

Yeah I had a buddy that the same thing happened to him. Fuck that shit. If thats what they want to believe, fine. Same with the crazy snake handlers I met last week. Arlos may sound crazy in some of that, but if thats waht he wants and makes him happy, good for him. Some people take that shit a little too seriously. Its a marriage for fucks sake. A piece of paper that says you can fuck. Itll probably be over in a few years anyway, and theyll move on to the next marriage, which will also most likely fail.

Gyps, I think you'll find if you look closely at stuff I've written, the only time I really attack Christian beliefs is when they are used as tools of oppression or means of one person harming another, like with fundamentalist Christian views of gays, etc. What I rail against, incessantly, is any attempt at forcing one person's beliefs onto another, whether that be in the political realm where the religious right is attempting to force the entire country into following fundamentalist Christian mores, whether it be "missionary" work that force people to go to bible study in order to get food when they're starving, etc.

I have every ounce of respect for Christians who are honestly seeking their own spiritual path using Christianity as a guide. I may not believe what they believe at all, but that situation is reciprocal. What I do not like about Christianity is the dogmatic institutional forces that have risen up around the religion, where each denomination tries to force everyone who follows that sect into the same lock-step beliefs, and punishes those who diverge from that. (see: Pope saying it'd be just fine to excommunicate politicians that vote for pro-abortion bills, etc.)

Other types I have on respect for are those fire and brimstone preacher types who have the effrontery to come into my face and tell me I'm going to hell for what I believe in. First of all, I don't believe in hell, so it's not exactly a threat, heh, but second of all, what gives him the right to not only assume his path is better than mine, when he has no idea of the details of mine, and furthermore what gives him the right to assault me about mine? Yet that is considered exemplary behavior in some sects of Christianity, and that I just cannot respect. One thing I will never understand though is the concept that one needs to fear the deity you worship. You keep hearing people talking about being "God-Fearing". What use is worship if it's coerced through fear?

If someone is Christian and that works for them, by all means, more power to them. But for your own sake, use your brain in your search. You have one for a reason, don't just take what is spoon-fed you, think about things, question, examine, and USE that brain. Just remember other people have their own ideas too, and don't try and force YOURS onto THEM.

-Arlos

you guys watch this yet? been out a few days but posting for anyone who didn't see it..

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/3f716ffebe

haha my dad showed that to me not 5 minutes ago, and I was on my way here to post it. funny as hell,. Best part is at the end when hes makin the hand and whooshing sounds haha

Thanks for sharing, Arlos. I truely was curious as to what your religion was about.

You really don't understand Christianity at all though. I realize that you grew up as a Catholic. I completely disagree with everything there is about the Catholic church. While there are specific secs of protestants that are as retarded as the cases you mentioned above, there are many many many more that are completely different than anything you mentioned.

According to Christian beliefs you are going to hell. Anyone that tells you this is not railing on your religion or saying that Christianity is better than your religion. They (I will be bold enough to say this: myself included) know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that Christianity is the only true and right religion. It has nothing to do with being better. That being said, I don't deny the feelings you mentioned of energy or power in your practices. I truely believe that you felt that power/energy and were able to do certain 'miracles' if you will. I simply have an answer to where that power came from. Yah, you're not going to like my answer to that - but it is my religion.

Haha go away again

I can't wait to take a shit on markarado's grave and he just has to lay there and let it rot along with his carcass that just stays there.


until the rats and bugs eat it that is

Markarado wrote:They (I will be bold enough to say this: myself included) know for certain without a shadow of a doubt that Christianity is the only true and right religion.

This is just a way of saying "hey guys, I got brainwashed in a cult." It has everything to do with thinking yourself better. It's simply wrong, you cannot know without a shadow of a doubt something that is based on opinion. Your religion spits out people like Phelps, and if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that thats the right way to be, and *I'll* be bold enough to say this - you are a psychopath.

Telling Arlos he doesn't understand Christianity is like telling Harrison he doesn't understand how to be a douche. Arlos has extensive knowledge on the subject and has proven so many, many times - pretty much any religious question he's asked, he has posted with confidence FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE on the subject - not faith based knowledge.

Gypsiyee wrote:Telling Arlos he doesn't understand Christianity is like telling Harrison he doesn't understand how to be a douche. .

haha

oh shit