EverQuest 2 package for WoW package...

[Lyion]

Er, ok. Guess yours was just a reply to the void.

Generally I've seen a lot more disgruntled WOW players than EQ2 ones so far, but any new MMO will have issues. Especially from a company that is new to the MMO market and learning as they were going.

[Tacks]

Yeah, we've NEVER seen disgruntled EQ players=P

So you have 1 disgruntled EQ2 player for every 40 WoW players....about the same ratio as the playerbase! ohnoz

[Martrae]

Both games are doing just fine in the numbers department.

Last night I counted 13 servers that were listed as completely Full and the rest were all listed as under Heavy load and not suggested to start characters on. I full expect several new EQ2 servers to be opened again very soon.

What'll be interesting to see how the numbers go when the free trial periods are up.

[Tacks]

Yeah it will be interesting if it will be twice as much or three times as much.

Funny how hush-hush SOE is with their numbers.

[Martrae]

I remember when they didn't use to be. You can bet WoW will follow suit in a couple years.

[Tacks]

If they're positive they have the most then theres no reason to be. The only reason SOE stopped screaming about numbers is when they got challenged from DAOC.

[Martrae]

True.....and someday another game will come along and challenge WoW. It's the nature of the industry.

[vonkaar]

I'm one of those people that will never touch another SOE game for as long as I live.

What's wrong with that?

Why buy from a company that continually pissed you off?

Blizzard has constantly impressed me. SOE constantly disgusted me. EQ2 isn't even worth the initial purchase price.

If you had a better experience in EQ, your opinion would likely be much different.

[Tacks]

Exactly, and as for right now I will continue to gloat.

[Martrae]

If you feel the need.

Did WoW say what population cap they put on each server?

[Tacks]

no but they lifted it now that servers are stable

[Martrae]

Hmmm...I'm ranked 334,712 in the Kills vs Death statistic so since I doubt I've died the most (but I may be close, I take too many chances) there must at least 350,000 subscribers, right?

How many did you say WoW had again?

[Lyion]

Ya know, I could understand if you owned stock in Vivendi, but honestly why does it matter? At the end of the day it won't even matter to Blizzard as they are just salaried workers with their big sales going to Vivendi's corporate pot.

And Vonk, that's pretty silly. Do you own a Playstation2? A Walkman?

If you like WOW, that's great. It's tough as jaded long time MMOers to find online happiness. I personally think it's an excellent game. For me though, I don't think it's as good a game as EQ2. Everything's subjective. Then again I quit EQ years ago and didn't spend 5 years paying a company that stole my childhood happiness like some here.

Hating a gaming company is like being mad at a commercial on TV. Whats the point? Then again, I guess some people take games personally.

[Martrae]

Vonk, we had awful experiences with EQ also, so much so that we quit for 3 years. When Horizons was a bust we gave EQ another try and found MUCH had changed in the game. So we played for a bit while waiting for something else to come along.

We tried the WoW during ST and it was fun..but not engrossing. We still considered getting it since my hub swore up and down, just like you, that SoE wasn't getting another dime.

Then (name deleted to protect the not-so-innocent) gave me access to an EQ2 beta account and we were both blown away. So here we are, playing yet another SoE product and enjoying it immensely.

[vonkaar]

Sony != SOE. That's a poor argument. SOE is as much a part of Sony as Bentley is a part of Volkswagen... although... very much in reverse. All that Sony cares about is the profitability and potential of SOE. They nearly have the console market cornered. They are a huge name in electronic entertainment. How many people do you know that played EQ and left with a sour taste in their mouths in regard to SOE? I know quie a few. How many Sony DVD player owners do you know with similar feelings toward Sony? I know none. Most PS2 owners are happy, many EQ players were not. I was among the latter. Want to keep comparing apples and oranges or shall we stick with same fruit - Online gaming.

Blizzard set some pretty badass standards in sooo many aspects of online play. EQ met those, and then SOE took over... and... in my opinion... the rest is history. They never matched up to the CS levels of the first 2 years. The quality of content continually got worse. Can you seriously tell me that EQ was BETTER after SOE? So... yes. I'm incredibly biased towards SOE. I have an incredibly poor opinion of SOE. I won't even give EQ2 a chance. Am I missing a great game from a 'reformed' SOE? Maybe. Oh well. That's what happens when you do a piss poor job on your first product - you alienate your customers.

I'll finish with a quote from your beloved president.

There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.
-- East Literature Magnet School, Nashville, Tennessee, September 17, 2002.

[Tacks]

Hmmm...I'm ranked 334,712 in the Kills vs Death statistic so since I doubt I've died the most (but I may be close, I take too many chances) there must at least 350,000 subscribers, right?

How many did you say WoW had again?

Because NOBODY has made more than 1 character right?

[Martrae]

Yeah...I had that pointed out to me.

[Lyion]

Sony Online Entertainment is run by Sony and is part of Sony. They report to corporate, their budget is from corporate and their release dates are approved by corporate. EQ Online Adventures was pushed by Sony, since they wanted it. I'm sorry you fail to see a 'department' of a corporation that is run as a subsidiary but still is part of the whole, but it is not an apples and oranges deal.

This is similar to Blizzard who was told WHEN to release their game by Vivdeni. Ya know, that release date Viv Corporate released that amazingly was the day WOW hit shelves?

What's completely silly is your hatred towards a game company that you most likely paid for for years. But no worries. You don't have to care about supporting EQ2. You already did with your extended paying of EQ1.

[Tacks]

So you're saying that since we like Blizzard we have to like Vivendi? You're off your rocker grandpa.

I guess since I like the Miami Dolphins I have to like every player they have right?

[Lyion]

No, my point is don't take games personally. Take them as they are, and try not to be too excited that the suits at Vivdendi are making big bucks.

If you think a game's excellent, and worthwhile, That's great. If you want to discuss things about it, that's also good. If you feel your childhood was stolen and you have hatred about any 'gaming' company you have issues.

[vonkaar]

To avoid being redundant, here is the conclusion to the argument.

Cliff notes at bottom.

[09:39] <Lyion> I'm replying to your Silly SOE hate
[09:40] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Shrug
[09:40] <Lyion> It does sound somewhat silly and petulant
[09:41] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> can you honestly tell me that a $1.25 per hour malaysian manufacturer of a Sony microwave is just as responsible for the quality of everquest as the $45k programmer in San Diego?
[09:41] <Lyion> I can understand if you don't like EQ, but to argue Sony Online Entertainment isn't connected to or part of Sony is a tad silly
[09:41] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> THAT is silly
[09:41] <Lyion> No, but the profits for SOE and that Microwave labelled Sony go to the same place
[09:41] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> so?
[09:41] <Lyion> And SOE reports to corporate Sony
[09:41] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm not pissed at sony
[09:41] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm pissed at SOE
[09:42] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> If I was a disgruntled Sony Microwave customer, I wouldn't be pissed at SOE.
[09:42] <Lyion> Thats like saying your Mercury is a POS, but you arent mad at Ford Motor Company
[09:42] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> totally different, cars are cars are cars
[09:42] *** Kaeerwen has joined #NT
[09:42] <Kaeerwen> hey hey
[09:42] <Lyion> Companies are companies are companies
[09:42] <Kaeerwen> I'm not at work, but... do I count anyway?
[09:42] <Lyion> No
[09:43] <Kaeerwen> fine, I'll bother you anyway
[09:43] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> do you not know how subsidiaries work?
[09:43] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Sony makes 1 billion products
[09:43] <Lyion> No <dry with sarcasm> I sure don't.
[09:43] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> they have child companies that produce them
[09:43] <Lyion> Sony controls SOE. Just like Vivendi controls Blizzard.
[09:43] <Lyion> Thats my point.
[09:44] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> why should I be pissed at the parent company that has 99% 'quality' products... just because ONE subsidiary made a shitty product?
[09:44] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I CAN focus my anger any where I want. SONY makes good shit. SOE makes shit.
[09:44] <Lyion> The point, doofus, is you shouldnt be pissed at ANY company
[09:44] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> why not?
[09:44] <Kaeerwen> You'd have to be pissed at everyone that makes stuff for wal-mart in that case
[09:44] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> You are telling me what I can and can't be pissed at?
[09:44] <Lyion> You should make educated reasonable decisions and not be emotional in regards to business matters
[09:44] <Lyion> By all means be pissed at whatever you want
[09:45] <Lyion> But I find it funneh you have so much SOE hatred you have a
[09:45] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> why can't my emotions dictate what I purchase? What the hell kind of reasoning is that?
[09:45] <Kaeerwen> logically, yes... but emotion will kick in regardless of logic.
[09:45] <Lyion> Nameless Tavern message board which is support for an SOE based gaming community
[09:45] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> tell me what percentage of the posts on NT are in ANY WAY related to EQ.
[09:45] <Lyion> Keep splitting hairs chief!
[09:46] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I can tell you because I did the numbers a few weeks ago.
[09:46] <Lyion> Vonk, you are way too smart man
[09:46] <Lyion> You know my point
[09:46] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> ??
[09:46] <Lyion> Stop getting post vacation stress disorder
[09:46] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I can't be angry at SOE because they pissed me off?
[09:46] <Kaeerwen> sure ya can
[09:46] <Lyion> You can, but I can point out its silly
[09:47] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> why?
[09:47] <Kaeerwen> Well, maybe you were only pissed because of one game, but all their games share the same customer support, right?
[09:47] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> what if I hated ALL sony products? would that make it any different?
[09:47] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> no kaerwen, they don't
[09:47] <Lyion> No, it'd still be silly
[09:47] <Lyion> We're talking about GAMEs
[09:47] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I don't call sony and hear, "press one for vaccuums. press 2 for everquest.'
[09:48] <Lyion> And if you hate a game or company you paid a subscription to for years, then it makes it doubly silly
[09:48] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> exactly...
[09:48] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> just like smokers KNOW they have to quit, yet they blow $40 a month anyway
[09:48] <Kaeerwen> I'm quitting tomorrow ^^
[09:48] <Lyion> http://www.sony.com/
[09:48] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> dude
[09:48] <Lyion> Go there and click on Online Games
[09:48] <Lyion> haha
[09:49] <Lyion> Anyways, I'm not ARGUING that you shouldnt hate Sony, Vonk
[09:49] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I can't believe this is so hard for you to grasp. HOW MANY DVD owners do you know that hate sony?
[09:49] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> How many disgruntled EQ players do you know?
[09:49] <Lyion> Almost none
[09:49] <Kaeerwen> none that play anymore...
[09:49] <Lyion> All my friends quit EQ years ago, and have mostly fond memories
[09:49] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Parent companies are ULTIMATELY responsible for the mistakes of the subsidiaries, but in MY EXPERIENCE, Sony only fucked up with EQ.
[09:50] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> So, I choose to not buy another SOE product
[09:50] <Lyion> Thats cool
[09:50] <Kaeerwen> power to ya
[09:50] <Lyion> I choose to think you are silly for being personally angered over a game
[09:50] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Why?
[09:50] <Lyion> But, SOE is still run and controlled by Sony
[09:50] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> If I drove a car that constantly broke down, I wouldn't buy from that company again.
[09:51] <Lyion> Totally understandable
[09:51] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> That's easy.
[09:51] <Lyion> But would you hate and loathe that car company?
[09:51] <Lyion> Or just make a personal decision not to buy a car from them?
[09:51] <Kaeerwen> But if the car was good, but the company made crappy, say, tires...
[09:51] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> IF that company happened to ALSO make QUALITY popscicles, I'd keep buying the popscicles
[09:51] <Lyion> There ya go
[09:51] <Lyion> But thats the complete opposite of what you just said
[09:51] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> how?
[09:51] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> SONY makes quality products.
[09:51] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> SOE makes shit.
[09:52] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Let's say that FORD made GREAT cars
[09:52] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> but they made shitty microwaves
[09:52] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I wouldn't buy from their microwave division
[09:52] <Lyion> Vonk, you are micro-dissecting this conversation that I'm presenting at a Macro level
[09:52] <Lyion> and please stop with the 3rd grade arguments
[09:52] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> no, you are saying that I should base my opinions of SOE because Sony makes great microwaves
[09:52] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> THAT makes little sense.
[09:53] <Lyion> No, I'm saying if you hate EQ, hate EQ. Don't hate the company that made EQ.
[09:53] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> why not?
[09:53] <Kaeerwen> right... you really can't hold Sony responsible for what SOE does, because SOE's job is to keep the money coming in.
[09:53] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm NOT kaer
[09:53] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm holding SOE responsible for what SOE did.
[09:53] <Kaeerwen> I'm not attacking you man, is all good
[09:53] <Lyion> SOE makes decisions based on what corporate is telling them to do
[09:53] <Lyion> The fact a huge percentage of their resources were shifted from EQ to EQOA was pushed from Sony
[09:54] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm sure Sony told them to make luclin extra time consuming and filled with bugs.
[09:54] <Lyion> The fact EQ2 came out when it did was pushed from Sony
[09:54] <Kaeerwen> in a way, yes... but if Sony had their hands in the micromanaging, then SOE would be totally pointless
[09:54] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Sony controlls the budget... which SOE probably does the best it can with...
[09:54] <Lyion> Just like WOW was released when it was because Vivendi told Blizzard to release it
[09:54] <Lyion> Exactly
[09:55] <Lyion> Anyways, I quit EQ years ago. I don't hate SOE. I played 5 months of WOW beta. I played EQ2 beta. I have no personal bias against either
[09:55] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Blizzard HAS the superior track record. SOE has the 'marred' track record.
[09:55] <Lyion> Er
[09:55] <Kaeerwen> true enough
[09:55] <Lyion> Blizzards best people are gone
[09:55] <Lyion> The ones who created Starcraft, Warcraft, etc
[09:55] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> And Brad McQuaid didn't OWN EQ?
[09:55] <Lyion> Blizzard is a company
[09:55] <Lyion> Exactly
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> What happened to EQ in the SOE era? Shitstorm.
[09:56] <Lyion> No, he created it, and bailed. Just like the Blizzard people did
[09:56] <Kaeerwen> that's a good point, but at the same time wouldn't you expect Blizzard to hire replacements of the same calibre?
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Blizzard's games kept up though... new content... same calibre of CS... patches... server uptime etc.
[09:56] <Lyion> The point you are missing is these are COMPANIES. They do the best they can to make products to make cash
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> And, IMO, Blizzard has done a superior job.
[09:56] <Lyion> Huh? Blizzard has been in the MMO business for almost 2 weeks
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> D2 sir
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Starcraft
[09:56] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> D1
[09:56] <Lyion> D2 isnt an MMO
[09:57] <Lyion> Starcraft isn't an MMO
[09:57] <Kaeerwen> MMO, yes, but they've been making excellent games for years
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> You mentioned the games.
[09:57] <Lyion> D1 isn't an MMO
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I mentioned the CS, patches, content.
[09:57] <Lyion> We're talking MMOs
[09:57] <Lyion> You are talking different Genre's
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> You brought up the games... not me.
[09:57] <Araby> speaking of which taxx said my computer can manage one
[09:57] <Kaeerwen> you said we were talking "games" earlier though
[09:57] <Araby> but I dont' remember which game they told me to play
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm saying that even though the developers quit, the track record continued in a positive note.
[09:57] <Kaeerwen> yeah, you could run WoW on a Colecovision
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> whereas with SOE, the quality went to shit.
[09:57] <Lyion> I personally think D2 was a pile of shit
[09:57] <Lyion> But thats just me
[09:57] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I disagree
[09:58] <Lyion> There ya go, subjective opinions
[09:58] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> As do most people..
[09:58] <Lyion> I dont hate Blizzard because D2 was a pile of shit
[09:58] <Kaeerwen> I thought D2 was great... it's the player base that ruined it
[09:58] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> since it was rated so highly, I can say that.
[09:58] <Lyion> EQ is highly rated and has 450k subscribers
[09:58] <Lyion> So your point is moot
[09:58] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> If you thought that Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft were all pieces of shit... would you want to play WoW? Probably not.
[09:58] <Lyion> Sure you would
[09:59] <Lyion> WOW is nothing like Warcraft or Starcraft
[09:59] <Kaeerwen> Iunno...
[09:59] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> So your whole argument is that a companies track record has no bearing on your purchasing decisions.
[09:59] <Kaeerwen> Still though, if you thought the games were crap, you could honestly say that you wouldn't have certain expectations of WoW?
[09:59] <Lyion> Absolutely, Kaeer
[09:59] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I bought EVERY Microprose game in the 90s because I loved every one of them.
[10:00] <Lyion> If a company produces crap, you can assume they'll continue to produce crap
[10:00] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Thanks.
[10:00] <Kaeerwen> right [10:00] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> That's my whole point.
[10:00] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Now...
[10:00] <Lyion> But again if a person is a fanbois and doesn't subjectively with unbiased thought look at things he could prefer a turd over a vastly superior game
[10:00] <Lyion> Myst proves that point to me
[10:00] <Kaeerwen> that's true
[10:00] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> wtf kind of point is that?
[10:01] <Kaeerwen> lol
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> we are speaking in the subjective
[10:01] <Lyion> Someone has replaced Vonk with Taxx.
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I'm not a fanboi...
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> you aren't...
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> wtf kind of point is that?
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Repeating: So your whole argument is that a companies track record has no bearing on your purchasing decisions.
[10:01] <Lyion> Not at all
[10:01] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Then that's where we differ.
[10:02] <Lyion> No, thats not my point at all
[10:02] <Kaeerwen> there's agreement here, at last!
[10:02] <Lyion> My point is don't take games personally, and objectively look at things
[10:02] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> heh
[10:03] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I find it hard to believe that you would give everything an equal chance, regardless of history.
[10:03] <Lyion> I do
[10:03] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Then that's where we differ.
[10:03] <Lyion> But I read shit books and good books
[10:03] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> If one author wrote 3 shitty books, I wouldn't read his 4th.
[10:03] <Lyion> I also do not evaluate things with huge bias
[10:03] <Lyion> Good point
[10:03] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> If one author wrote 4 GREAT books, I'd read his 5th.
[10:04] <Lyion> This is more akin if an Author writes 3 really good books, writes one you don't like, and comes out with another.. And yet you've sworn off all his books due to that bad one..
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> no
[10:04] <Lyion> <nods>
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Planetside sucked
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> SWG sucked
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Hell, Jeopardy Online sucked
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> these are my own opinions.
[10:04] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> IN MY OPINION, SOE has 3 'bad books'.
[10:05] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> So I'm avoiding their 4th.
[10:05] <Lyion> How many EQ expansions do you own?
[10:05] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> eq, kunark, sov, luclin, pop(very lightly)
[10:05] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> that was enough of EQ for me.
[10:05] <Lyion> Two more than me!
[10:05] <Lyion> Anyways, I liked SWG and Planetside was decent if lacking in content
[10:06] <Lyion> Then again, I think Starcraft is a top 3 game ever, too.
[10:06] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> shrug
[10:06] <Lyion> Up there with Alpha Centauri and original EQ
[10:06] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Sid Meier can only produce solid gold.
[10:06] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Brad McQuaid, wrote a 'good book'... and I'll likely read his other stories.
[10:06] <Lyion> Something we agree on. Sid Meier is a God
[10:07] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> And back on point, if Sid Meier's Pirates sucked BAD, I'd still get his next program.
[10:07] <Kaeerwen> doubtless
[10:07] <Kaeerwen> right, due to an excellent track record
[10:07] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Because I base my purchasing decisions on track record.
[10:07] <Lyion> Did you like UO?
[10:07] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> I like Richard Garriot, but didn't like UO.
[10:07] <Lyion> k
[10:07] <VonkaarGoatSlayer> Not enough social.
[10:07] <Kaeerwen> but if Civ and Alpha Centauri and whatnot sucked, there wouldn't be a chance in hell
[10:08] <Lyion> I understand your point completely, Vonk. And we can agree to disagree.

Cliff notes:

Vonkaar makes his purchasing decisions with a strong emphasis on the company's track record.

[Tacks]

Lyion pretty much owned himself by saying that he only liked EQ enough to play up through SoV. Everyone agrees that was the best expansion. After that EQ went to shit (Hello SOE).

[The Kizzy]

Here, let me lay it out for you plain and simple. Some people like EQ2, some people like WoW, some people like both at the same time, and some *cough* Lyion *cough* change their opinions daily. Who cares, go back to enjoying your game the way you like it. Taxx, what do you care if everyone but you and I want to play EQ2? It doesn't matter financially to us! Diekan, why do you care if it looks cartoonish? As long as the people playing are enjoying their time, why do you care? I can't believe everyone is up in arms about which game everyone else should play.

[Martrae]

Cuz we all want to play together, of course!

[Agrajag]

Can't we all just get along?