Linux in a nutshell.

[Diekan]

Diekan


you fall into the Geek category tho, and not average user


linux isn't quite ready as a mainstream OS


you have to remember, like 40% of all internet users don't know how to configure their outlook express

do you think they'll be able to install an OS?

That may be true... but there are a few people here who seem pretty sharp and are interested in at least trying linux. I write these posts to help them, or anyone else who might be in need. If one of our posters pops in a SuSE disk to make a go of it and wonders how to get something working, at least they can come here to see if there's any info.

Remember Tikker - we don't have a very high population of AOL users here. In fact I believe we have quite a few professional geeks who post here on a pretty regular basis.

But, anyway I do this to try and help anyone who might be interested - or to provide information for those that might be interested... and I do it for myself as well...

[Tikker]

I know, but you're trying to say that linux is just fine for the average user


I don't think many of us here qualify as the average user

[Gidan]

Linux is a great OS for the grandparents who ONLY use it for email and internet. Its extremely stable, they wont need to worry about viruses and with a window manager like KDE or Gnome they can just point and click.

However, for the every day joe who wants to be able to buy and install software. Linux is not ready for them. Many things can be easily installed now but some times there are little config issues taht the avg person just wouldn't be able to learn.

For the geeks amoung us though, linux is the best thing out there. You can get it to run just about anything out there. Its stable as a rock. Its infinatly more powerful then windows. And finally, it puts you in complte controle of you system and what its doing where windows assumes you dont know anything and will not really let you do anything.

For those of you who want to try and learn it, myself and I am sure Diekan are happy to answer any questions you may have. I know we have some other linux people here also who I am sure can help you out. This is not just for the geeks out there but for anyone. I am happy to help even the most basic computer user if they want to give it a try.

[Tikker]

Gidan, can you honestly see grandparents getting linux installed on their own?



I also wouldn't say it's infinately better than windows

yes, it can be more granular in control, but it can be mofakin frustrating to get it to work properly =P

[Diekan]

Well, in my opinion you're BOTH right.

Tikker is right that it can be bitch to get certain things working.

And, Gidan is right when he says that it's not ready for people who are basically download and install crazy.

Think about what the "average" user does with their machine... play music and video files, word processing, email, surf the web, make CD's, use Excel, pay bills and a few other basic tasks.

But, here's the thing. Years ago when Red Hat first came out - it WAS a friggen nightmare to do anything in Linux. There just wasn't any support for anything and you pretty much had to configure everything from your modem to your video adaptor manually. But, as I've been saying, things have changed greatly - linux has made leaps and bounds.

To do what the basic average use does with their computer takes all of maybe an hour to set up (from install to completion) - maybe a little longer, maybe shorter.

I talk of SuSE because it's what I use - it's what I know.

The installation of SuSE takes me 20 minutes or less... and it's completely "GUI" and point and click. During the installation you are asked very straight forward questions... the ONLY tough spot that one might encounter is if they were trying to create a dual boot machine and weren't sure which partition to leave alone. And even then all they'd have to know is where their Windows files are located (e.g C: drive). They simply click the option to leave the C: drive alone and that's it. SuSE does the rest - INCLUDING configuring the system for dual boot. The user has to do nothing but sit back, answer a couple of question, click on next a couple of times and let SuSE take care of it.

After the install the user will be booted directly into a desktop that looks very much like a Windows machine (all GUI). all point and click.

Then it's just a matter of updating their system... they simply go into YaST, click on Online Update, click next and sit back... SuSE does the rest.

Everything else is already installed.... Office, media players... all of it (for their basic needs). Hell, even their net connection will be already set up (if they have broad band).

Now, it is not windows - there are differences. You'll have to learn your way around... you'll have to learn how to download / install things... but it's really not that hard.

But, yes.... you're right Tikker - if you can't configure your Outlook and you play EQ - Linux is not for you... setting up the proper applications to be able to play your windows based games is not something a brand new average user can do right away...

[Gidan]

Gidan, can you honestly see grandparents getting linux installed on their own?

Do you honestly see grandparents getting windows installed? I usually base it off somone else doing the install and they just sit down and use it. From my experience in an ISP, most of the older people have someone who sets everything up for them, they just use it once or twice a day to check their email. When something goes wrong they call tech support who walkes them step by step through everything.

However, distros like SuSE and Fedora install with VERY little work. Sure if you want to do some major configuring, its out of the league of most normal people. Other distros especially slackware and gentoo require alot more expertise to get going and going well. Many people who run Redhat and SuSE as their primary OS cant even get slackware and gentoo running properly.

For the most part I would say
SuSE and Fedora are for beginner to expert level users.
Countless distos for avgerage to expert level users.
Slackware and Genoo for expert level users.

I have seen beginners get slackware going, however by the time they are done, I would consider them experts.

[Tikker]

I'd just like to say that I hate fedora!

[Gidan]

I hate it too, I feel like I am constantly fighting the system to manually configure stuff. Slackware is by far my favorite.

[Diekan]

I'd just like to say that I hate fedora!

Don't let Lyion hear you say that lol... that's his distro of choice.

[Diekan]

Gidan, can you honestly see grandparents getting linux installed on their own?

Do you honestly see grandparents getting windows installed? I usually base it off somone else doing the install and they just sit down and use it. From my experience in an ISP, most of the older people have someone who sets everything up for them, they just use it once or twice a day to check their email. When something goes wrong they call tech support who walkes them step by step through everything.

However, distros like SuSE and Fedora install with VERY little work. Sure if you want to do some major configuring, its out of the league of most normal people. Other distros especially slackware and gentoo require alot more expertise to get going and going well. Many people who run Redhat and SuSE as their primary OS cant even get slackware and gentoo running properly.

For the most part I would say
SuSE and Fedora are for beginner to expert level users.
Countless distos for avgerage to expert level users.
Slackware and Genoo for expert level users.

I have seen beginners get slackware going, however by the time they are done, I would consider them experts.

I agree with that, but also on a side note - a lot of people just don't want to spend to much time trying to get things working.

I like SuSE BECAUSE of it's ease to install and use. I want something that works right out of the box - and SuSE is it.

However, as a side project I am putting DNALinux on an Apple iBook. I like the fact that I can jump on SuSE when I want to do something, and mess around with the iBook/DNALinux in my spare time.

SuSE can also be some what complicated... it took me a couple of days to finally get the iPod to work.

p.s I think Linus uses SuSE

[Lyion]

Nothing in Linux is that difficult anymore. When I did my first Linux install in 1994 it was frighteningly difficult. Getting my NIC Card was horrid and forget Xwindows.

Nowadays, Linux is no more difficult to install than Windows. Slackware and Gentoo are not tough. Heck, even if you emerge and compile your entire system, its still so damn easy compared to the old days of Linux.

Yes, for the Computer Phobic Linux is inaccessible. But these people are the same ones who check their email and surf for years without spending the 30 seconds it'd take to put a popup blocker or remove their spyware until their PC runs slower than Vonkaar chasing Anal.

[Gidan]

When I say difficult, I mean they have to actually work in a shell enviornment. Its not as simple as pop in a CD and click the mouse. You actually need to learn commands. And to fully use the resources of linux you have to have a good idea of what you are doing. When is that last time you say an average user sit down and try to compile a new kernel, hell I would wager 90% of the computer users out there wouldn't know what most of the options on a kernel are even for.

[Darcler]

[Lyion]

So we've come to the conclusion that people are dumb?

Truf.

[Gidan]

So we've come to the conclusion that people are dumb?

Truf.

When I did my first Linux install in 1994 it was frighteningly difficult.

Is that because you were dumb? Or is it that you just didn't know exactly how to do it and you had to learn it.

[Tikker]

no, linux was MUCH harder to get installed back then(and all drivers working!)

it's not rocket science anymore, but it's still more difficult than windows to install

[Gidan]

I know its MUCH easier now. I am not exactly new to linux. I remember the horror of getting it installed and running.

Its not rocket science but some distros are far harder to install then windows. I am just saying, I dont think its because people are dumb that they cant do it. Its jus that they dont know how. Some poeple learn it beter then others. There are alot of people who would hae a very hard time learning the innerworkings of linux where others could pick it right up.

[Lyion]

That was supposed to be a funny. Next time I shall add a smiley so certain people without a sense of humor can realize when things are not serious, like those comparing the first few series of Linux distros with todays mature products..

[Jazendar]

Diekan, how do I install Counter-Strike (Half life) on my new computer, If i choose to duel linux and xp pro?

Also, can you list me some Linux drivers for the ATI 800XL video card please?


Thanks a lot in advance man.

[Diekan]

Well, there are a couple of things you'll need to first consider.

For one, your skill with Linux. Secondly, how you're going to use both.

I'm not going to lie to you - getting games to work in Linux is one of the hardest *things* an average user will have to face, especially for ATI users. Why? Well, from what I understand ATI uses thrid party vendors to write the drivers. Third party vendors who aren't to keen on allowing their source code to float around in cyber space. This just makes life harder for everyone - especially when the thrid party vendors aren't really interested in supporting a particular OS. Also, from what I understand, nVidia's drivers are open source - which is why I believe nVidia is the *choice* of a lot of Linux users.

I run an ATI Radeon 9600. When I first installed the OS I didn't bother installing the drivers for the card. I end up with about 430 FPS and couldn't play a game if I tried. Finally, with the ATI drivers installed and 3D acceleration enabled - I know run at about 5000 FPS (and quite stable I might add) - Quake III looks and runs perfectly.

I'll post a "how to" for you, but give me a day to write it up.

BTW, mind if I ask why you're going to keep a Windoze partition if you want to game through Linux?

[Jazendar]

To be honest, i'm not to familiar with Linux, yet. Currently, off this computer, i'm running Windows XP Pro. My friend who's putting my new computer together, uses linux. He's the pro on all of this stuff, but had me ask you the questions I did, because he uses an Nvidia card and such.

So, my skill with Linux right now - None. I will familiarize myself with it soon enough though, with the help of my friend. My computer parts arrive on thurs-friday, and i'll have it put together then.

As far as the How to, don't worry, take your time. I'm in no rush, like i said, it's thurs-friday before i get my computer parts / put together.

Thanks in advance, Diekan.

[Jazendar]

Diekan, would you suggest I get linux on my computer at all instead of windows xp pro? I mean, i get my computer today, would it make sense, being that I don't know how to run linux, (i could learn from my friend)? To be honest I just don't want any spam, any viruses, any adware or spyware, any popups. And your ss of your desktop looks like something i'd like to work with. I'm not even sure right now. =/

[Diekan]

I think you'll find that Linux (of course depending on the distro you end up installing) is not as hard to run as it seems. Yes, it's something “new,” and of course you'll have to learn as you go... but it's not terribly difficult.

Since, you're interested in running Linux and gaming... and considering you haven't really been exposed to Linux. I wouldn't suggest installing Linux solely on your machine.

In fact I would honestly suggest that you install both. I would recommend creating a dual boot system with XP and Linux. This is not very difficult, but I am sure your Linux experienced friend can help you if need be.

I would dedicate between 10 to 20% of your HD to XP and install your games there. Install Linux on the rest of the HD. When you want to game, just reboot and log into Windows... when you want to do everything else, log into Linux. Eventually, you'll gain enough knowledge about your Linux distro that you'll be able to install and configure your games on your Linux partitions and you'll have no further need for XP – then you can delete it forever.

As you've probably already read (if you read through these posts), there are some distro's you (as a beginner) will probably want to avoid. I know Gidan is a slacker, but I don't, personally, think Slackware is ideal for a beginner. Of course I'll push SuSE 9.2... and Lyion will push Fedora. Both Fedora and SuSE are super easy to install and learn with, but between the two it basically boils down to a matter of personal preference.

Here's a simple and a rather crude way of getting what you need done.

Install XP on the WHOLE drive with TWO partitions. A small partition (remember 10 to 20% or so depending on your HD size) for your C: drive (this of course is where all your Windows files will be kept). The other drive (much larger) will be formatted with NTFS and will be empty.

Once you have the HD formatted and Windoze installed, you can then install /cough SuSE. You can tell SuSE to ONLY install on your D: drive and she will leave the C: drive (windoze) untouched. She will also automatically configure your booting to offer you the choice between Linux and Windows. So, every time you start / reboot your machine you'll be asked which OS you want to log into.

During the installation of Linux you can either allow SuSE (or more specifically YaST) to automatically create your Linux partitions, or you can do it manually... if you choose the manual option you'll need to ensure that you have 3 partitions. A root “/” , a user “/user (this should be your largest) and a swap “/swap” which as you've also probably already read, should be equal to or slightly less in size than the amount of RAM you have.

Of course it's just easier to let YaST do it for you.

After you've installed Linux... take the time to log into Windoze and install your games, install your video card drivers and DirectX 9. Once you've got Windoze set up – then return to Linux and take some time to look around (you can do any damage unless you're logged in as root)... take some time to familiarize yourself with the OS...

If you have a cable modem connection you shouldn't need to do any configuring – you'll be on the “net” automatically.

Once you're finished with that – come back and we'll work through any issues / questions you have.

[Antilus]

linux is WoW friendly yes?


maybe i switch but i need precious

[Lyion]

You need wine or winex I think to run WOW.

Just bittorrent or file search for Cedega, which is Transgamings Winex distro that allows you to play most games on Linux.