More evolutionary lies.

[Tossica]

Hahaha. Quit while you are behind Wrath Child... you are only making yourself look even more stupid with each post.

[10sun]

Having no formal religious affiliation and being run and supported by Atheists are not one in the same.

The Boy Scouts charter is all about 'God' you know.

Atheists don't get together and worship a lack of god.

Most Atheists don't go to church, they don't band together in a feeble attempt at bringing meaning to their lives.

Bill Gates is an Atheist and he has donated more money to worthwhile charities than most Christian Organizations as a whole last year.

[Yamori]

Bill Gates is an Atheist and he has donated more money to worthwhile charities than most Christian Organizations as a whole last year.

Haha, great point.

[Lyion]

Gates is Agnostic, not an Atheist.

Much of Gates donations over the years have been Windows products which in and of itself is not really giving.

I'd hardly call Gates Mother Theresa, especially given the damage he has done to the worldwide IT market.

Also, Gates has said most of his foundation and giving is from his wife's wishes. She was raised Catholic.

[xaoshaen]

Holy shit, there are too many gaping logical holes in this thread for me to bother addressing each one. Despite the apparent concensus, few of them belong to Wrath.

He's right, though he's skirted his central point rather than addressing it directly: without acknowledging a higher power, capable of dispensing absolute wisdom beyond human ken, morality becomes entirely arbitrary.

[Gidan]

So are you saying that without some higher power, we as humans are not capable of determining right from wrong?

[mofish]

So there is an absolute morality? And it stems from an invisible God that you have no proof even exists, much less cares whether gay people get married or I go to some man-made church on sundays? Right.

[Lyion]

I have plenty of proof. You will too when you analyze and philosophize about it.

You are the one spitting into the wind, and getting mad about some partisan man made political issues that have nothing to do with God, Mo.

[xaoshaen]

So are you saying that without some higher power, we as humans are not capable of determining right from wrong?

Not only did I not say that, I didn't even imply it.

[xaoshaen]

So there is an absolute morality? And it stems from an invisible God that you have no proof even exists, much less cares whether gay people get married or I go to some man-made church on sundays? Right.

Not only did I not say that, I didn't even imply it.

[Tikker]

So there is an absolute morality? And it stems from an invisible God that you have no proof even exists, much less cares whether gay people get married or I go to some man-made church on sundays? Right.

Not only did I not say that, I didn't even imply it.

um
yes you did

without acknowledging a higher power, capable of dispensing absolute wisdom beyond human ken, morality becomes entirely arbitrary.

Morality can be arbitrary, and still be moral~

google definitions:
# relating to principles of right and wrong; i.e. to morals or ethics; "moral philosophy"
# concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"
# ethical: adhering to ethical and moral principles; "it seems ethical and right"; "followed the only honorable course of action"; "had the moral courage to stand alone"
# arising from the sense of right and wrong; "a moral obligation"
# psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect; "a moral victory"; "moral support"


morals are independent of any belief in a god/higher power

morality is simply a code of ethics that becomes a guideline for how a community lives their lives

simple as that

[xaoshaen]

So there is an absolute morality? And it stems from an invisible God that you have no proof even exists, much less cares whether gay people get married or I go to some man-made church on sundays? Right.

Not only did I not say that, I didn't even imply it.

um
yes you did

No, no I didn't. I said not one damn thing implying that an absoulte morality existed.

without acknowledging a higher power, capable of dispensing absolute wisdom beyond human ken, morality becomes entirely arbitrary.

Morality can be arbitrary, and still be moral~

google definitions:
# relating to principles of right and wrong; i.e. to morals or ethics; "moral philosophy"
# concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral lesson"; "a moral quandary"; "moral convictions"; "a moral life"
# ethical: adhering to ethical and moral principles; "it seems ethical and right"; "followed the only honorable course of action"; "had the moral courage to stand alone"
# arising from the sense of right and wrong; "a moral obligation"
# psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect; "a moral victory"; "moral support"


morals are independent of any belief in a god/higher power

morality is simply a code of ethics that becomes a guideline for how a community lives their lives

simple as that

Fascintating, but entirely irrelevant to what I said.

Edit: The sheer stupidity of this as a response has inspired me to comment further. Of course it's still fucking moral. It's morality.. by definition it's "moral". The fact that it's completely arbitrary doesn't change that. The problem with it isn't that it's somehow immoral or amoral, just that there's absolutely no external basis for it, and someone whose morality encompasses, say, the plundering by force of your possessions, has an equally justifiable claim to morality.

[runamonk]

So there is an absolute morality? And it stems from an invisible God that you have no proof even exists, much less cares whether gay people get married or I go to some man-made church on sundays? Right.

Ah you missed one key point that most of us evil agnostics / athiests like to point out, all the bibles EVERYWHERE were written by man at some point. Man has flaws and is very self centered.

[runamonk]

Gates is Agnostic, not an Atheist.

Much of Gates donations over the years have been Windows products which in and of itself is not really giving.

I'd hardly call Gates Mother Theresa, especially given the damage he has done to the worldwide IT market.

Also, Gates has said most of his foundation and giving is from his wife's wishes. She was raised Catholic.

You just hate Microsoft. I personally like the fact that he basically pushed the PC to the top of the pack, if he hadn't we could still be paying 8000 for a a crappy XT or 8088.

Granted I don't like paying 300 bucks for an OS, if I could run all my work stuff and games on linux I would be using it full time but it's just too much work.

[10sun]

Gates is Agnostic, not an Atheist.

Much of Gates donations over the years have been Windows products which in and of itself is not really giving.

I'd hardly call Gates Mother Theresa, especially given the damage he has done to the worldwide IT market.

Also, Gates has said most of his foundation and giving is from his wife's wishes. She was raised Catholic.

I was just making shit up.

That is an example of an organization(The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation) that does not have a religious affiliation which does donate a significant amount of money towards bettering the world.

-Adam

[Lyion]

I don't hate MS. I hate monopolies that stifle innovation. Especially high tech ones.

MS has a history of undercutting any new competition, and bundling things in their OS to eradicate opponents.

I admire their ruthlessness and perseverance, but at the same time I realize without MS we'd be a lot further along the High Tech curve than we are now. Ask any non MS related programmer about this, and most will give you the same answer.

Ah you missed one key point that most of us evil agnostics / athiests like to point out, all the bibles EVERYWHERE were written by man at some point. Man has flaws and is very self centered.

Indeed, but it's the inspiration and eye towards divinity that enables man to overcome our nature, and attempt to adhere to a set of standards and goals that will allow for an attempt to work towards being as good as we can.

Again comprehending and seeking the inner meanings of proverbs, psalms, and the golden rule is not for death and the afterlife, but for right now, which is what the fundamentalists do not understand.

If one's goal is solely for reward after you die, than you miss the meaning of religion. Likewise, if you believe in nothing then its difficult for those with faith to understand from where your beliefs in right and wrong stem, since as you astutely pointed out, Vaelie, man is very self centered and flawed.

[Gidan]

If you have grown up or spend your live believing that all your morals come from your religion, I can see how you would have a hard time understanding where those who do not believe got their morals. Probably as hard a time as those who do not believe find it to understand why all of the believers so blindly follow something that obviously doesn't exist and yet still claim that it was the insparation of their morals.

[runamonk]

Indeed, but it's the inspiration and eye towards divinity that enables man to overcome our nature, and attempt to adhere to a set of standards and goals that will allow for an attempt to work towards being as good as we can.

Dreaming, this can be done without god whispering in your ear, sitting on your shoulder or directing your life to a perfect happiness. I understand where it comes from, some people need something other than what they already have, they need that little bit extra to help them get through the day and help them cope with life.

Again it doesn't matter to me at all what people believe so long as they respect my beliefs. So if you think god lives in a banana and you want to worship it, you go right ahead and I won't hold it against ya. hehe

[runamonk]

If you have grown up or spend your live believing that all your morals come from your religion, I can see how you would have a hard time understanding where those who do not believe got their morals. Probably as hard a time as those who do not believe find it to understand why all of the believers so blindly follow something that obviously doesn't exist and yet still claim that it was the insparation of their morals.

Morals are a tricky thing because they have so many ways of being defined. For instance it's perfectly acceptable to cut off the gentialia of a child when they puberty in africa and tribal locations but here in america it's considered barbaric.

I think most people learn their morals from their parents, some people take it a step further and they learn or expand on that with church and teachings from the bible etc.

Everyone is going to have an idea of what is moral and what is not, that's the crazy thing about humans. We each have free will.

[xaoshaen]

If you have grown up or spend your live believing that all your morals come from your religion, I can see how you would have a hard time understanding where those who do not believe got their morals. Probably as hard a time as those who do not believe find it to understand why all of the believers so blindly follow something that obviously doesn't exist and yet still claim that it was the insparation of their morals.

Actually, I don't really think it's difficult to understand where agnostics or athiests derive their morals from. In large part, they believe what they are told, much like those who have aligned themselves with a faith. Authority figures, experience, and exemplary figures all play significant roles in founding an individual's moral code.

Claiming that a divine figure "obviously doesn't exist" only weakens your position. Any logician could warn you about the perils of attempting to prove a negative.

[Gidan]

First is was just a statemnet in regards to

If one's goal is solely for reward after you die, than you miss the meaning of religion. Likewise, if you believe in nothing then its difficult for those with faith to understand from where your beliefs in right and wrong stem, since as you astutely pointed out, Vaelie, man is very self centered and flawed.

As for the claim of "obviously doesn't exist"

I am not making the statement that I beleive that, I am not an Antheist. However by definition, a Atheist is somone who does not believe in the existance of God/Gods. They believe it doesn't exist.

[mofish]

I have plenty of proof. You will too when you analyze and philosophize about it.

You are the one spitting into the wind, and getting mad about some partisan man made political issues that have nothing to do with God, Mo.

I love the condescension in this post, and this line of bad reason. As if I havent spent years analyzing and 'philosophiziing' about it. You think atheists are somehow more shallow than believers because we dont share your conclusions. Wrong.

You have plenty of proof? Wow, please enlighten me. What proof?

[xaoshaen]

First is was just a statemnet in regards to

If one's goal is solely for reward after you die, than you miss the meaning of religion. Likewise, if you believe in nothing then its difficult for those with faith to understand from where your beliefs in right and wrong stem, since as you astutely pointed out, Vaelie, man is very self centered and flawed.

And I was just saying that I don't really think it's that difficult to bridge the gap, intellectually, between the origins of faith- and internally-based morality.

As for the claim of "obviously doesn't exist"

I am not making the statement that I beleive that, I am not an Antheist. However by definition, a Atheist is somone who does not believe in the existance of God/Gods. They believe it doesn't exist.

Sorry, my grammar tubed there. "Your" was poorly expressed. I intended to refer to a generic athiest, not you specifically. A personal disbelief in a higher power is different than a belief that 'obviously', no such higher power exists.

[Yamori]

I've given the basis for my secular morality in multiple threads. I think it is at least as viable, if not more so, than depending on a big man in the sky for your basis of how to behave.

You can also look at thinkers like (as much as I dislike them) Kant, Mill, and Aristotle (he's ok) for a viable secular morality. One is based off of the basis of reason (at least as Kant sees it), the other two off the basis of happiness. Two real enough things that exist in the world.

[mofish]

Claiming that a divine figure "obviously doesn't exist" only weakens your position. Any logician could warn you about the perils of attempting to prove a negative.

You cant even come within a mile of any sort of proof of the existence of the christian God. Yahweh makes no sense. He is not all-loving, all-knowing, or all-powerful.

Yes, I think I can easily say that Yahweh obviously doesnt exist. And my morality and sense of right and wrong stem from this tooth fairy, this biblical santa clause? No, they dont.