The Passion

[Tacks]

Were the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus with him on his voyage?

[Harrison]

I have the book of mormon if you want it Ug...

Havent read it myself but I wont throw it out.

Spoke with the mormons who I met for a few hours...nice people.

[Langston]

--The Book of Mormon is rather a compilation of records- much like the Bible, except it was translated directly through Joseph Smith. Mormon, rather than the author, was an abridger- and one of the last of the righteous Nephites. There is a record of the Brother of Jared- who's record says they built boats and came from the land of the Tower of Babel.(that would explain the strange languages I guess)

THROUGH Joseph Smith, or did you mean BY Joseph Smith?

About the boats- it would not be hard to believe at all, if you believe in Noah and his ark- however, if you don't believe in that-- it would be a hard thing to do- without the help of the Lord, that is. We do know from a description of the Brother of Jared's boats that they were small, compact, only one entrance that was sealed during the voyage, and he also had stones that had been touched by God to light the boats.

The ark and these boats would be drastically different vessels. The ark was legendarily said to have been designed to be a big floating barge. It was not designed to maneuver - only to float long enough for the waters to recede. The boats that would have been required to sail across the ocean would have required a mode of propulsion, steerage (not to mention maps), storage for food and drinking water, stowage for replacement parts for ship repairs, and cabin space for people. Even in the days of Columbus, it was not uncommon for the boats of that day to barely be adequate in holding what was needed or fast enough to get to the other side of the ocean before people starved or died of sickness. It's kind of hard to believe that this happened... unless you fall back on the faith in God answer - where all evidence to the contrary, it can still be true if God wished it to be.

Your last question about the different tribes is hard for me to answer, for some reason.... Many of these tribes could probably be called "Nephites", while others could not be related... as I stated above, The Book of Mormon ends in A.D. 421, consequently that is when Christ's church left the american continent (left as in... all the believers dieing). Also, many of the places in the Book of Mormon tend most to believe most of the events to have taken place in southern modern Mexico, and into South America. So i guess it wouldn't even be that wierd to think they never saw the North American Tribes.

OK - well then the Incan or Mayan nations maybe (which were much larger anyway). I didn't cross-reference my history and/or geography on that - but the point remains even so.

again, there is lots more to explain, and I am not so good at it... i would reccomend reading the Book of Mormon, you would undertsand alot better hehe.

You're doing fine. I will not promise to read the Book of Mormon - but the conversation is interesting. It's better to educate the ignorant than to ignore them... in other words, let's keep this public if you are comfortable with that - this way you may be able to cure some ignorance of more than just myself.

[apolo]

THROUGH Joseph Smith, or did you mean BY Joseph Smith?

I'm sorry- I meant BY Joseph Smith- through the power of the spirit and a device called the Urim and Thumim (ancient seer stones that Joseph found in the box with the Gold Plates)

The ark and these boats would be drastically different vessels. The ark was legendarily said to have been designed to be a big floating barge. It was not designed to maneuver - only to float long enough for the waters to recede. The boats that would have been required to sail across the ocean would have required a mode of propulsion, steerage (not to mention maps), storage for food and drinking water, stowage for replacement parts for ship repairs, and cabin space for people. Even in the days of Columbus, it was not uncommon for the boats of that day to barely be adequate in holding what was needed or fast enough to get to the other side of the ocean before people starved or died of sickness. It's kind of hard to believe that this happened... unless you fall back on the faith in God answer - where all evidence to the contrary, it can still be true if God wished it to be.

1st Nephi 18 states:

and we did work timbers of curious bworkmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the cship•.

2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

I might want to point out that it was "curious" timbers etc. a mode completely unknown by man at that time.

Of course, all these things would be neccesary. Nephi (who built the boat despite the ridicule of his brothers) with help from his other brother, Sam, tells us that, of course, God told him where to find ore to make tools, taught him how to build the boat, so all i can say is, think of a boat that could cross the atlantic... maybe the most primitive one, I'm guessing that's what it looked alot alike. About maps- in the wilderness outside Jerusalem, Lehi awakes to find a strange object outside his tent. Nephi describes it as:

1 Ne. 16: 10
10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness

.

this thing, called the "Liahona", directed them, alot of times it only directed them as long as they were righteous. (on the boat, Nephi;s brothers tie him up and kinda have a party, and almost kill him, and it stops working for a while)

I believe they could have sat on a log and God would have pushed them across, but~ Nephi explains it was a wierd boat-- so God only helped him with the design, I guess you could say. I might also want to point out, Lehi had all his sons, and also another family of a man named Ishmael, who had daughters that Lehi's sons all married... so one would guess the boat would be pretty big, too.

Incans and Mayans-- Nephites and Lamanites-- they all lived in South America, and could very well be the same people..I would go as far to say that they ARE the same, there is many evidences of the Book of Mormon through these cultures, it's really interesting to read about them.

I don't mind keeping it public- especially if I can actually help people at least *understand* more about the LDS church. I don't push people into anything, in fact Joseph Smith himself said he would never force the Gospel upon anyone... and I at least like to have a little respect in return for the respect I feel towards all other religions.(not really aimed towards you, Ugzug)

[apolo]

just a tidbit: Joseph Smith, in the 1820's ( i dunno the exact date ><) was led to a Hill called Cumorah in upstate New York by an angel named Moroni. Moroni (Son of Mormon) was also the last living Nephite in America. (all the more fitting for him to guide Smith then, I guess) he buried in the stone box the Golden Plates-- the abridgment of records that Mormon completed, the Liahona, The Urim and Thumim ( my weak description is two eyeglasses that attach to a Breastplate) and also the Sword of Laban (Nephi Aquired this in Jerusalem before they left-- Laban had in his posession some brass plates [we believe it to be the Old Testament] and he and his brothers were sent to get them back.) I can't say enough how unqualified I am to explain-- the story of Nephi and Laban is just in 1st Nephi, if anyone wants to read it, online scriptures are here: [link]http://scriptures.lds.org/[/link]

[apolo]

[link] http://scriptures.lds.org/ [/link]

[Langston]

it's "url" inside the tag.

I'll have to go ahead and read the Book of Mormon. Never hurts to have a deeper understanding of other major religions than your own.

One thing I must ask though - can you describe the ritual of Baptism by proxy? This is something I have never understood.

[apolo]

well, This is one thing i could probably explain the worst >< hehe. heres my understanding though:
It's actually the reason that all these million dollar temples are constructed... we believe that faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism (by immersion), and the Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost are neccesary for exaltation (read: exaltation, not salvation- Christ's atonement has already saved us) after all, "Faith without work is dead" as the Bible says. The Bible also talks about no Marriage in Heaven, and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven etc. So it becomes clear that Baptism, and the confirming unto person the gift of the Holy Ghost is quite impossible with people that existed during the dark ages, people that never got the chance to hear the gospel, or otherwise never got Baptised and Confirmed. So it becomes neccesarry for someone to do it in proxy for the dead.(This is why the LDS church has the biggest Geneology center in the world, and why the members are so "into" it). there is also other sacred ordinances performed in the Temples, as well as marriages that last eternity (not just until death do you part) and also sealings- where you can be sealed to your family- again- for eternity-

I know it's not enough, and the internet does have alot of good info about it. one website that i like alot is [link] http://www.new-jerusalem.com [/link] sorry i dunno how to do links still =/...you can search for any questions that have been asked. =)

[vonkaar]

The links are converted automatically Apolo.

[apolo]

oh doh >< thanks =)

[The Kizzy]

Not htat I read all of that, but I did skim through, and Ugzugz, many scientists believe that all of the continents were actually one big piece of land, and broke apart in the 900 AD I believe. I would have to research it to get specifics, so that might help answer the question as to how he got to North America, he didnt have to take a boat, just a long walk. If that is even true, Im not arguing that.

[Azlana]

Pangea

[mofish]

Yes, Pangea. And they broke apart a looonnggg time before 900 AD. Pangea existed as a whole, about 200 million years ago. Slowly started to break up and drift apart to the continents we now see after that.

[Tacks]

Rodinia was formed 1,100,000,000 years ago even before Pangea. Pretty interesting stuff, here's more from an article:

750 million years ago, Rodinia broke into three pieces that drifted apart as a new ocean formed between the pieces. Then, about 600 million years ago, those pieces came back together with a big crunch known as the Pan-African orogeny (mountain building event). This formed a new supercontinent, with the name of Pannotia. By about 550 million years ago, Pannotia was breaking up into several small fragments, Laurentia (the core of what is now North America), Baltica (northern Europe), and Siberia, among others, and one very large piece. This large piece, containing what would become China, India, Africa, South America, and Antarctica, was called Gondwana. It is considered a supercontinent in its own right because it is so big, but it is only part of the earlier supercontinents. Over the next 200 million years many of the small pieces came together to form another large continent called Laurasia. Laurasia and Gondwana joined approximately 275 million years ago to form the supercontinent of Pangea. The breakup of Pangea is still going on today and contributes in the formation of the Atlantic Ocean. Eventually a new supercontinent will form and then it will break apart and so on.

As you can see, the earth's continents have seen a lot of action over time. There were probably some supercontinents formed in the 4300 million years of earth's history that came before Rodinia was formed, however, we have a much harder time understanding the history of rocks that old because there were not very many life forms to help determine the age of the rocks and because so much has happened to the rocks since they formed that the record of the original events is not very clear any more (imagine that five different people each taped over different parts of your favorite video and then from the little pieces that were left of the original, you had to go back and try to put the whole story together - geologists who do this work are a lot like detectives.

[The Kizzy]

900 AD Pangea, same general time line there. tehehe

[Arlos]

The thing I always found most amusing about Mormons are the Jesus Jammies. These are supposedly specially blessed uncomfortable under-undergarments, you're supposed to wear under your bra/underwear, to prevent you from getting sexually stimulated by your genitalia touching the fabric of your underwear/bra. Now that is some SERIOUS effort put into preventing people from actually enjoying themselves.

I also find it just a TAD suspicious that Smith got turned down by the local authorities when he asked to marry more than 1 woman, then suddenly claims out of the blue to have found "All of these gold plates with the word of god on them, and THEY say I can have many wives, and I'm going to found my own religion based on them!" Just because a religion has a bunch of adherents doesn't mean it wasn't founded on false pretenses. Just look at Scientology. It was created by L Ron Hubbard (known only as a reasonably successful science fiction author at the time) as part of a bet between him and Robert Heinlein (VERY famous science fiction author), where they bet each other as to who could found a successful relgion first, and who'd get the most followers in it. Hubbard won, but you can still find followers of Heinlein's religion, called "The Church of All Worlds" (or something very close to that)

-Arlos

[mofish]

Oh man, myself and my girlfriend just moved to Salt Lake City. The mormons are fucking crazy. They make conservative baptists look like liberals. Tons of information filtering, and mandatory donation, to the church. They own CBS here. There is a mormon channel that runs 24/7 documentaries about brigham young and smith and utah before you get to WB, ABC, FOX, or PBS on the dial. And lots of sex. Joseph Smith even allowed himself to sleep with the wives of his followers, cause he was special. One of our good friends is an ex-mormon, and has been giving us the scoop.

There are still some towns full of polygamists also. They are officially excommunicated from the church if found out, but the church puts no active effort into investigation. And they have a dirty secret too. Because of polygamy, there are too many single men. So young men somtimes are told by their families to leave and never come back. And then they just report that the kid has run away. Nice huh.

They claim the book of mormon has never been altered and is the word of god through joseph smith. Yet they have altered it 300 or so times.
Blacks were proclaimed to be cursed by God. They decided in 1978 that god had lifted the curse. That is when blacks could start becoming priests in the church. 19 freakin 78.
God phyiscally lives in our universe. And lives on a planet, that revolves around a star named Kolob.
He descended from heaven and physically had sex with mary to produce jesus.

cult, powerful, rich, popular, cult.

[mofish]

hmm no editing here i guess. The mormons own NBC not CBS.

[foogly]

First off let me say I didn't read this entire post. I’m not interested in bashing anyone for there beliefs or lack there of. I am a Christian and I believe the bible is the word of God. I will also never tell you faith is the only way to explain something. Science must uphold the bible and everything must have a logical conclusion and be reasonable explained. Lets get one thing out a the way NONE of us can point to anything scientific evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. I would like to be challenged as long as there respectful and open minded as I will be.

I also wanted to say something related to the ark.
Gen 6:14-16 "And God said unto Noah... Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt though make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of... the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side therof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Cubits are believed to be no less then 18inches. This would make the ark about 750feet long x 75feet wide x 45feet high. This vessel would be almost impossible to tip over. Also its volume would be about 1.5million cubic feet. You could fit about 500+ railroad cars in it. If you now look at the animal that had to go is it would seem there would be know way, but with a little research you’d find out there are only about 35000 animals that would need the ark for survival. Even if we were to assume he took 50000 animals the ark would not fill up. Remember it’s not likely they would take adults into the ark. Let’s say the average animal size is the size of a sheep (I think that’s reasonable) each box car could hold 240 sheep. Which would be way more space then is needed. Leaving room for other provisions.

[apolo]

very cool.. i saw a thing on history channel or something about mt. ararat, too- where the ark landed. cool stuff.

[Langston]

First off let me say I didn't read this entire post. I’m not interested in bashing anyone for there beliefs or lack there of. I am a Christian and I believe the bible is the word of God. I will also never tell you faith is the only way to explain something. Science must uphold the bible and everything must have a logical conclusion and be reasonable explained. Lets get one thing out a the way NONE of us can point to anything scientific evidence that proves or disproves the existence of God. I would like to be challenged as long as there respectful and open minded as I will be.

I also wanted to say something related to the ark.
Gen 6:14-16 "And God said unto Noah... Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt though make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of... the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side therof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Cubits are believed to be no less then 18inches. This would make the ark about 750feet long x 75feet wide x 45feet high. This vessel would be almost impossible to tip over. Also its volume would be about 1.5million cubic feet. You could fit about 500+ railroad cars in it. If you now look at the animal that had to go is it would seem there would be know way, but with a little research you’d find out there are only about 35000 animals that would need the ark for survival. Even if we were to assume he took 50000 animals the ark would not fill up. Remember it’s not likely they would take adults into the ark. Let’s say the average animal size is the size of a sheep (I think that’s reasonable) each box car could hold 240 sheep. Which would be way more space then is needed. Leaving room for other provisions.

That's swell, Foogly. However, God forgot to tell him to build sails and a rudder. THAT is my point. There is no steerage or form of propulsion whatsoever. Noah's ark was a barge.

[The Kizzy]

Ugzugz, he wasnt suposed to go anywhere, his "job" was to keep the animals from drowning so when the waters subsided, they could start all over.

Mormons are wacky.

[Trielelvan]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo.....

Noah, he built him, he built him, an arky arky,
Noah, he built him, he built him, an arky arky,
Built it out of (clap) gopher barky barky!
Children, of the, Lord!

The animals, they came in, they came in, by twosies twosies,
The animals, they came in, they came in, by twosies twosies,
Even elephants and (clap) kangaroosies roosies!
Children, of the, Lord!

It rained for 40 nights, and daysies daysies,
It rained for 40 nights, and daysies daysies,
Drove them animals (clap) crazy crazy crazies!
Children, of the, Lord!

The animals, they came out, they came out, by threesies, threesies,
The animals, they came out, they came out, by threesies, threesies,
Someone taught them 'bout the (clap) birds and beesies beesies!
Children, of the, Lord!

[The Kizzy]

OMG I havent heard that song in ages.

I did hear this joke once about Unicorns on the ark, being gay so they couldnt reproduce or something.

[Trielelvan]

Well, that would explain those *magical* horns, wouldn't it?