Suns and Mavericks

[Rzail]

Manute Bol> Erick Dampier!

[vonkaar]

he's top ten... unless you can find TEN other centers in the league that are better.

The PROBLEM is... the centers these days pretty much suck... when you compare to the fives of *last* generation... Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Motumbo, Mourning, Wilkins... hell, Roy Tarpley would be a top 5 center if he played these days. Brad Miller is the 3rd best? Wtf? In 1992, his numbers would put him beyond 11th place.

[xaoshaen]

Well... compared to what else is out there, he's a great center. Seriously, who would rank higher?

If we're going strictly by listed position:
Shaq
Yao
Stoudemire
Miller
Magloire
Wallace
Foster (when he's healthy)
Camby (dunno if people outside fo CO noticed, but he was huge this year, in large part because he was relatively healthy.)
Nesterovic (an incredibly underrated defensive player. He's a lot like Bowen in the sense that he doesn't put up a lot of numbers, but he does a great job at stopping offensive players from scoring. The Spurs really felt his loss defensively this year.)
Dalembert (Doesn't fit well with O'Brien's scheme, and didn't get a lot of runtime this year, but when he was on the floor, he was impressive. He'll be getting a huge contract from someone).

Dampier is more physically gifted than many of these other centers, but he lacks willpower. Give me someone like Foster who will go out and play balls out all the time over a talented, but moody and inconsistant Dampier.

[vonkaar]

No fucking way Dalembert is better than Damp man... you lose 14 respect points for saying that.

Damp was a 12/12 guy during the ONLY healthy months he had this year. The MAIN thing that most of those guys have that he doesn't is OFFENSIVE willpower. Magloire and Ilgauskas, for example, know how to drive the lane and score. Damp has more of a screen for the 4 to open up lanes OR offensive-rebound / slam type offensive resume. Damp's BIGGEST fault is his inability to avoid fouls. That's fucking frustrating.

If Damp can stay healthy next year, he'll be a top 6 or 7, easy. Marcus Camby, Samuel Dalembert, Jamaal Magloire and company really can't compare talent-wise. Remember - we won *both* games against The Heat this year because Damp *really does* do a good job guarding Shaq. He (damp) got double-doubles in both games and really limited Shaq from destroying us like he did so many other top ten teams. Damp excels against other strong CLASSIC centers, he struggles against the faster, more athletic 5s like Amare and Camby. Look at Big Ben's numbers against Damp...

Regardless... I can't believe you left The Shawn© off the list.

[xaoshaen]

No fucking way Dalembert is better than Damp man... you lose 14 respect points for saying that.

He's young, but I'd much rather have him on my team than Dampier.

Damp was a 12/12 guy during the ONLY healthy months he had this year. The MAIN thing that most of those guys have that he doesn't is OFFENSIVE willpower. Magloire and Ilgauskas, for example, know how to drive the lane and score. Damp has more of a screen for the 4 to open up lanes OR offensive-rebound / slam type offensive resume. Damp's BIGGEST fault is his inability to avoid fouls. That's fucking frustrating.

One of the biggest reasons that Dampier gets in foul trouble is that he's a lazy bastard on the defensive end. He doesn't move his feet well, frequently fails to maintain his position and is left to flail away at his man to keep from being posterized.

If Damp can stay healthy next year, he'll be a top 6 or 7, easy. Marcus Camby, Samuel Dalembert, Jamaal Magloire and company really can't compare talent-wise. Remember - we won *both* games against The Heat this year because Damp *really does* do a good job guarding Shaq. He (damp) got double-doubles in both games and really limited Shaq from destroying us like he did so many other top ten teams. Damp excels against other strong CLASSIC centers, he struggles against the faster, more athletic 5s like Amare and Camby. Look at Big Ben's numbers against Damp...

Talent is irrelevant. Production matters. Witness Eddy Curry. Dampier may have all the talent in the world, but he lacks the willpower to project it. Do you have any idea how Damp's plus/minus numbers stack up? Seriously, you can't hype Dampier and dog Camby. Containing the offensive explosion that is Ben Wallace isn't something to brag about either.

[vonkaar]

Well, I didn't say 'look at ben's offensive numbers'. I was talking about the whole game - the impact that a good performance from a center gives you... blocked shots, offensive rebounds, etc.

Game 1 against Detroit:

B.Wallace - 8points, 15 rebounds(4 offensive), 2 assists, 1 block, 1 steal
E.Dampier - 11points, 14 rebounds(6 offensive), 2 assists, 4 blocks, 2 steals

Game 1 against Miami (we won by 20, btw):
S.O'Neal - 22points, 10 rebounds(6 offensive), 1 assist, 1 block,
E.Dampier - 10points 9 rebounds(5 offensive), 2 assists, 1 block

Game 2 against Miami (we won by 5):
S.O'Neal - 25points, 10 rebounds(3 offensive), 5 assists(wow), 3 blocks
E.Dampier - 15 points, 14 rebounds(3 offensive), 1 assist, 3 blocks, 2 steals

Almost all of those numbers are higher than his season average... but, like I said... he plays best against better competition and when he's HEALTHY.

Now... compare against your fucking Samuel Dalembert:

Game 1 against Philly:
S.Dalembert - 5 points, 4 rebounds(1 offensive), 0 assists, 1 block, 0 steals
E.Dampier - 14 points, 27 rebounds(10 offensive), 2 assists, 7 blocks, 1 steal

Game 2 against philly:
S.Dalembert - 4 points, 5 rebounds(1 offensive), 0 assists, blocks and steals
E.Dampier(The Shawn© started) - 5 points, 10 rebounds(3 offensive), 0 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks - 17 minutes played.



against Curry...
only one game
E.Curry - 23 points, 5 rebounds(1 offensive), 0 assists, 2 blocks, 0 steals
E.Dampier - 11 points, 12 rebounds(1 offensive), 1 assist, 1 block, 1 steal.

He put up better numbers against Camby, Yao (in the 2 regular season games they played against each other, the playoffs were another story obviously) and Rasho...



I can't comment enough on Camby because I didn't watch him play, didn't see the difference that he made. However, I *can* comment on Damp because we were often totally fucking LOST without him. His big body in the middle completely disrupts the way people 'want' to play against Dallas. He allowed Dirk to do magical things (although, we still don't know wtf is wrong with him in the post-season). Our opponents PPG increased by FIVE during the 6 weeks Damp was out.

No... he doesn't move his feet well. No, he doesn't handle the ball well... but seriously, Dalembert? Wtf?

Damp is exactly what Dallas needed. Off the top of my head, I think that only Miller, Wallace and... well... Shaq would fit better with our offensive weapons while complementing our "Defense" so well.

You should have watched Dallas in the early Spring... you'd have a much better appreciation for him.

[xaoshaen]

Now... compare against your fucking Samuel Dalembert:

Game 1 against Philly:
S.Dalembert - 5 points, 4 rebounds(1 offensive), 0 assists, 1 block, 0 steals
E.Dampier - 14 points, 27 rebounds(10 offensive), 2 assists, 7 blocks, 1 steal

No... he doesn't move his feet well. No, he doesn't handle the ball well... but seriously, Dalembert? Wtf?

The numbers don't tell the story in this matchup. O'Brien absolutely did not use Dalembert effectively (and frequently didn't use him at all), but it's not Sam's fault. Hopefully he'll sign with a team that uses a system better suited to his talents.

Damp is exactly what Dallas needed. Off the top of my head, I think that only Miller, Wallace and... well... Shaq would fit better with our offensive weapons while complementing our "Defense" so well.

You realize Dampier is tied for fourth on the Mav's (with The Shawn) in terms of plus/minus? That doesn't really support your theory.

You should have watched Dallas in the early Spring... you'd have a much better appreciation for him.

How do you know that I didn't? He's an impressive player when he's focused, he just spends far too much time in his own mental hinterlands to be one of the top ten centers in the league.

[Zanchief]

He's young, but I'd much rather have him on my team than Dampier.

And Camby has to be the single most underrated player in the NBA this year.

Considering pure centers, I'd rank him above Zeek and just below Yao.

[xaoshaen]

Yep, when healthy Camby was huge for the Nuggets, much more important than Kenyon Martin. He's just hurt or hobbled so often that people tend to write him off.

[vonkaar]

Xao... Damp missed half the season to injuries... he took a couple of weeks at the start of the season to get used to the system, but he was still often pulling in double-digit rebounds for us. His SEASON numbers are going to look like complete shit because of this. Most especially plus-minus. To get a good picture of Dampier, you have to look at the single-game performances when he was healthy.
But, don't bother... I'll post more stats... np.
Jan 20: 8points 11rebounds(6off) 1 assist 3 blocks
Jan 21: 8points 6rebounds(2off) 2 assists 2 blocks 1 steal (21 minutes played)
Jan 23: 9points 14rebounds(7off) 0 assists 4 blocks 1 steal (27 minutes)
Jan 24: 13points 14rebounds(7off) 1 assist 2 blocks (30 minutes)
Jan 26: 15points 14rebounds(3 offensive) 1 assist 3 blocks 2 steals (31 minutes)
Feb 2: 11points 14rebounds(3 off) 1 assist 2 blocks (26 minutes)
Feb 4: 12points 14rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 1 block 1 steal (32 minutes)
Feb 6: 13points 12rebounds(4 off) 0 assists 2 blocks 2 steals (31 minutes)
Feb 8: 11points 12rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 1 block (24 minutes)
Feb 11: 16points 8rebounds(4 off) 0 assists 1 block 2 steals (28 minutes)
Feb 13: 19points 14rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 3 blocks (37 minutes)
injury time

Averages over those 11 games - 12.27 points 12.09 rebounds 2 blocks
Notable Centers he faced off against during that run: Foyle, Miller, Curry, J-O, Dalembert, Camby, Shaq, Foster... and a few scrubs.

I'll post articles from ESPN, SI and Dallasnews if you really want me to illustrate the impact he had on our team during those 'good' times.

[Lyion]

Dirk Nowitzki called him(Dampier) "a step slow on everything" and even Shaq weighed in and said the reason he hasn't talked to the media is because "I've been playing like Erick Dampier."

Not the poster boy for a top center, IMO.

[vonkaar]

Dirk's criticizing of Dampier was a pretty big deal, and he responded with a great game.

Shaq's been picking on Damp ever since Erick made the statement that he enjoys playing against Shaq. Before one Miami game, Shaq called Dampier 'soft'. We won that game by 5 and Erick did a great job containing Shaq. After the game, a reporter asked if he was bothered by Shaq's comments and he responded with something like, "well if soft means we win, I'll take soft any day."

here is a snippit I found while looking for shit...

Dampier provides a boost

Mavericks center plays O'Neal to standoff in second half of win
Erick Dampier couldn't rejoice much in his 26-rebound game against Philadelphia on Saturday because the Mavericks lost.

This time, when he battled Shaquille O'Neal and came out with a win and a nice statistical night, it was uplifting not only for the Mavericks' center but also for everybody else in the locker room.

"Every shot he took, I tried to defend and hoped he missed," Dampier said. "In the second half, I just tried to get to him before he got in the paint and force him out of his comfort zone."
Dampier had 10 points and nine rebounds in the telltale second half, when O'Neal had 10 points and seven rebounds.

"Damp has played real well two games in a row," said Marquis Daniels. "To fight Shaquille all night and still get a double-double is tough. This is something we can definitely build on. That team could be the Eastern Conference champions."

Seriously... ya'll are seeing 10 games a year and trying to judge something you don't know anything about. The fans in Dallas are more than happy with the Dampier acquisition. This is the best team we've had since '89.

Here... an AP article about Dampier's contributions to the team:

Dampier-less Mavs are like a doughnut

Center's absence leaves a sizable hole in the middle of defense
LOS ANGELES – Those who wondered how – or if – Erick Dampier would help the Mavericks have their answer.

This team can win without Dampier. But when they lose, as they did against the Los Angeles Clippers to start this three-game road trip, you see just what they miss when he's not on the court.

Coach Don Nelson can tinker with the minutes all he wants over the next few days and weeks. He can teach Keith Van Horn the plays and try to scratch out a few more wins at home

But the Mavericks won't be able to forge the identity they need to be successful in the playoffs until Dampier returns later this month.

"Without a center, we're treading water," Nelson said as the team turned its sights to tonight's game against the Los Angeles Lakers. "We're doing the best we can with what we have.

"It's good to have Hindu [Alan Henderson] back, but we know the only legitimate center we have now is Damp. I'd like to say Shawn Bradley could go in, but he's all over the map. I never know what I'm going to get with Shawn."

The Mavericks began to slip defensively before Dampier was placed on the injured list with a stress fracture in his right foot. Now, those deficiencies are even more pronounced.

Opponents have scored 113 or more points in three of the six games since Dampier has been sidelined. The Mavericks are allowing nearly six points a game more than they have over the course of the season, and opponents are shooting 45.1 percent from the field in that stretch.

The club is still holding opponents to less than 44 percent from the field for the season.

"He's got to anchor our defense," forward Dirk Nowitzki said. "Before he got hurt, he did a great job for us. He would attack the penetration and did a good job on the pick-and-roll defense.

"I've said it all along. If he's aggressive out there for us defensively, we're a different team."

What happened against the Clippers wasn't an aberration. A team that had lost nine of 11 games drove the lane at will on its way to 60 first-half points. The Clippers pounded the Mavericks on the offensive boards and held a 52-32 overall edge in rebounds.

"I can't be surprised about being outrebounded without Damp," Nelson said.

Maybe not. But assistant coach Avery Johnson, who ran Thursday's practice while Nelson stayed at the hotel because of his aching shoulder, emphasized that Nowitzki, Henderson and Bradley must begin to pick up the slack on the boards.

Guard Jerry Stackhouse pointed out that the Mavericks can't abdicate their aggressiveness just because Dampier is not on the court.

"If we want to have the identity of a defensive team, we're going to have to take hard fouls, no matter who it is," Stackhouse said. "Everyone on the court has to take hard fouls when teams drive down the lane on us. We're too deep of a team to have to worry about foul trouble."

There's no firm timetable for Dampier's return. He said Thursday he's feeling better and hopes to be cleared to move his rehabilitation to the elliptical trainer early next week. The next step is the treadmill and then the court.

The Mavericks are left to fend – or more accurately, defend – for themselves until he gets back. Nowitzki said the team is so small up front now that the team is "right back to where we were the last couple of years" defensively.

That's not what anyone wants.

"Since he's been out, I think guys really see what he brings to the table," Johnson said. "We are hoping once he gets back he's well rested and healthy and has tons of energy to be even more of a presence inside."

[xaoshaen]

Xao... Damp missed half the season to injuries... he took a couple of weeks at the start of the season to get used to the system, but he was still often pulling in double-digit rebounds for us. His SEASON numbers are going to look like complete shit because of this. Most especially plus-minus. To get a good picture of Dampier, you have to look at the single-game performances when he was healthy.

Actually, no, plus/minus doesn't depend on minutes played. It's entirely based on how your team performs with and without the player on the floor, and it's an average, not a cumulative stat.

But, don't bother... I'll post more stats... np.
Jan 20: 8points 11rebounds(6off) 1 assist 3 blocks
Jan 21: 8points 6rebounds(2off) 2 assists 2 blocks 1 steal (21 minutes played)
Jan 23: 9points 14rebounds(7off) 0 assists 4 blocks 1 steal (27 minutes)
Jan 24: 13points 14rebounds(7off) 1 assist 2 blocks (30 minutes)
Jan 26: 15points 14rebounds(3 offensive) 1 assist 3 blocks 2 steals (31 minutes)
Feb 2: 11points 14rebounds(3 off) 1 assist 2 blocks (26 minutes)
Feb 4: 12points 14rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 1 block 1 steal (32 minutes)
Feb 6: 13points 12rebounds(4 off) 0 assists 2 blocks 2 steals (31 minutes)
Feb 8: 11points 12rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 1 block (24 minutes)
Feb 11: 16points 8rebounds(4 off) 0 assists 1 block 2 steals (28 minutes)
Feb 13: 19points 14rebounds(5 off) 1 assist 3 blocks (37 minutes)
injury time

Cherry picking games is an absolutely terrible way to prove a players value. Potential perhaps, but not overall value.

Averages over those 11 games - 12.27 points 12.09 rebounds 2 blocks
Notable Centers he faced off against during that run: Foyle, Miller, Curry, J-O, Dalembert, Camby, Shaq, Foster... and a few scrubs.

The fact that you feel compelled to list Curry and Foyle as "notable centers" isn't helping your argument here.

I'll post articles from ESPN, SI and Dallasnews if you really want me to illustrate the impact he had on our team during those 'good' times.

Yes, because subjective articles written during a Dampier's good streaks are somehow going to negate what the numbers tell us: Dampier was, overall, a below average center. Yes, he had good games, but he balanced those by completely disappearing at other times.

You're still missing the primary point behind criticism of Dampier: he's inconsistent largely because of unforgiveable mental lapses. I'm not a Dallas fan, I pay attention to the NBA as a whole. Dampier flaking out isn't news, he's been doing it for years.

[vonkaar]

Years? How do you figure? He's been plagued by injuries his entire career... the only 2 years in which he played complete seasons (after his rookie start), he was nearly a double-double center (8/9, 13/12, 12/9 etc). From 98 to 2002 he only had 134 starts, out of 328 games. He's only had 2 years where he played full seasons AND over 27 minutes per game... he was 13/12 and 12/9 those two years.

I wasn't cherry picking games. I picked out the nearly 2 months of games where he finally got in his groove. We had a completely new team (Only Dirk, Fin, and The Shawn© remained from 2 years ago) that needed a lot of time to adjust. Just when we were finally seeing the team mesh well, Damp breaks his foot. I would point out similar numbers for Jason Terry... Josh Howard... and most especially, Dirk Nowitzki. The whole team was playing at their full potential. Everyone talked about how well Detroit did after the all-star break, but Dallas' steady improvement in the whole of 2005 was the best in the league. Look it up - no team won more games after Jan 1 than Dallas. Much of our loss column comes from the 60/40 start... hell, I looked it up for you... Detroit lost 15 games, Phoenix and Miami lost 16 games each and San Antonio lost 17 games. Dallas lost 14 - 3 of them were right after the key injuries... all in a row. We were 19-10 in 2004 (.655), 39-14 in 2005(.735). Dampier was the biggest reason for our best winning months... and the media agreed.

There was no cherry picking. That was Dallas playing as they should. Dirk's numbers were boosted during that time... Terry was playing out of his mind... Howard became Dirk's Pippen during that period... Kieth Van Horn showed up and immediately made huge improvements off the bench. And then... Damp got injured, Stack got injured... Howard got injured for a bit... same for Finley and Dirk - it was disgusting. Cherry picking would be me going back in 2004 and finding individual games in which he did well. I didn't do that. I covered pretty much all of 2005 until his injury. Remember, he didn't get back until just a few games before the playoffs started.

I understand plus-minus sir. My point was, over half of the season he was playing injured or off very limited minutes. We really didn't see Dampier until the aforementioned 'good' period. His plus-minus numbers are skewed because of the whole 'meshing' time - most of 2004. He simply wasn't playing to the best of his abilities, but neither was the team. Don't judge him on the team's failures as a whole... nobody was 100% *yet*.

[Lyion]

Vonk, Demp has been around for 9 seasons. Its not like a he's a fresh 22 year old.

He's been a disappointment for years. As of now he's a 'serviceable' decent journeyman center with potential, but YEARS of mediocrity

Nobody here will use great for him, except you. I doubt anyone in the media or even Mark Cuban would attach that.

The word that comes to mind is 'decent'.

[vonkaar]

Years? How do you figure? He's been plagued by injuries his entire career... the only 2 years in which he played complete seasons (after his rookie start), he was nearly a double-double center (8/9, 13/12, 12/9 etc). From 98 to 2002 he only had 134 starts, out of 328 games. He's only had 2 years where he played full seasons AND over 27 minutes per game... he was 13/12 and 12/9 those two years.

2004-2005 free agency by position.
1. Erick Dampier

Few players in NBA history have sparked the kind of disagreement between rating systems that Dampier did last season. By linear-weights measures, Dampier was one of the league's best centers, and I have him rated as one of three NBA centers more than 10 wins better than replacement level (WARP) last season, the others being Yao Ming and Shaquille O'Neal.

A lot of people have argued that Dampier is a dangerous free agent because he only played well in his contract year, but I don't buy that argument (with the rebounding caveat). Dampier was a solid starter in 2002-03 as well, a fact that was somewhat hidden because Adonal Foyle was having a career year of his own, limiting Dampier to 25 minutes per game. Project Dampier's 2002-03 numbers to the same minutes as 2003-04, and you get 11.0 points and 8.8 boards per game -- not as good as his actual 2003-04 performance, but also not bad either, especially given how little depth there is at the center position in the NBA.

I would be careful of giving Dampier too long of a contract or too much money, but he's pretty clearly the center available on the market who could make the most impact in 2004-05 (not counting O'Neal in a trade), and could help a lot of teams.

"He's one of the top centers in the West," said Nelson, who is in Athens for the Olympic Games. "He's a guy that can block shots and hold down the middle defensively."

http://www.nba.com/features/top10_free_040630.html
TOP UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS

Number 4 (Kobe, Nash and Sheed were only free agents ranked higher)
When broadcasters and beat writers talk about contract years, look no further than Dampier's numbers last season. He had career-highs in points (12.3 per game), rebounds (12.0) and field goal percentage (.535), which was good for third in the NBA. He nearly doubled his rebounding numbers from the previous season and increased his scoring average by 50 percent.

Dampier is also a presence on defense, with 1.61 blocks per game. But don't expect him to move the ball around. Once the ball enters the post, Dampier is reluctant to distribute, as his career assists average (1.0) attests. Teams in pursuit also need to determine whether Dampier's 2003-04 season was the start of something good or a flash-in-the-pan.

The big catch, whether you respect his game or not, was center Erick Dampier, who turned it on last year, averaging 12 points, 12 boards and two blocks after having opted out of his contract with Golden State to become a free-agent this summer. Damp was courted by several GMs, people apparently without access to a TV from 1998 until 2002. The Mavs "won" out by sending a package of cast-offs to the Warriors for the 6-foor-11 center.

and... lastly...

All year long, we have noted that Erick Dampier does "little things" that are hard to point to on a stat sheet. We say "He makes the Mavs better defensively" - but all we've been able to do is cite team stats like the opponent's field goal percentage and notice it seems to be smaller when he plays.

In some recent research on individual player production, we found a study that finally quantifies his individual defensive impact. And wow, we were blown away at what it shows.

John Hollinger (ESPN Insider) is a very highly regarded statistician who does a statistical evaluation called Player Efficiency Rating (PER), which evaluates a player's overall production. He analyzes every possession both offensively and defensively, for every player on the floor. Positive production like made baskets, rebounds, etc produce positive points, and turnovers and missed shots and the like produce negative points. The points are weighted so that their relative impact to a game's outcome is fairly reflected. Then the whole thing is scaled so that the NBA average is 15.0 - in other words, the average NBA player will score exactly 15 offensively, and the average NBA defender will have a defensive ranking of 15.

In a study that looked at players during "Clutch Time" - the last five minutes of games where the margin is 5 points or less - we saw something amazing. Out of ALL the players in the NBA who play regularly, as much as 1/4 of the time or more, there were a handful who could limit their opponent to a very low number in that clutch time. A low number indicates incredibly effective defense, and the top defensive numbers in the NBA were 2,3,4,5, in that range - which means they in essence have neutralized their opponent where over the course of an entire game at that rate the opponent might as well not even be on the court. And then we get to Dampier.

So in this study, how does Dampier do? This stunned me when I saw it. Dampier's opponents have a combined average this year in Clutch Time of MINUS 10.4 ... that means that Dampier is so effective that the other team goes backwards, just by his presence on the floor. It is a jaw-dropping stat, and no other player with a statistically significant number of minutes this year is even close. These numbers tell us quantitatively what we have seen with our eyes - Dampier's presence makes an incredible difference in the Mavs' defensive potential.

Mavs fans have long wished for a defensive center to complement Dirk Nowitzki - and they can say objectively that one has arrived.

The Box Score ratings system that so many sportswriters foolishly follow has severely crippled Erick Dampier in the minds of the fans. The PER puts him above every single center in the league in 5 of 8 categories. Very few writers in Dallas are complaining about his performance simply because they watch him day in and day out and therefore fully understand the difference that he makes on the floor.

[Xaiveir]

Im not personally a big fan of Damp, but the guy can play the center position. He may not be Shaq, but as far as what he brings to a team defensivly in the paint, there is not much better at all.

I will bet if you take a poll and say in the West who is a center that you do NOT want to drive into, shoot over, or back down, Damp is on a short list of options.

He brings to Dallas exactly what they needed to become a better TEAM. He may not be the best Center, but certainly ranks up there with Centers that make their TEAM better.

[xaoshaen]

Im not personally a big fan of Damp, but the guy can play the center position. He may not be Shaq, but as far as what he brings to a team defensivly in the paint, there is not much better at all.

I will bet if you take a poll and say in the West who is a center that you do NOT want to drive into, shoot over, or back down, Damp is on a short list of options.

He brings to Dallas exactly what they needed to become a better TEAM. He may not be the best Center, but certainly ranks up there with Centers that make their TEAM better.

His plus/minus numbers do not support this assertation. He ranks dead even with Shawn Bradley in terms of improving the team's performance. He makes them better, but he's not a huge improvement over his replacement options. Lyion's right, he's a decent center.

[xaoshaen]

The big catch, whether you respect his game or not, was center Erick Dampier, who turned it on last year, averaging 12 points, 12 boards and two blocks after having opted out of his contract with Golden State to become a free-agent this summer. Damp was courted by several GMs, people apparently without access to a TV from 1998 until 2002. The Mavs "won" out by sending a package of cast-offs to the Warriors for the 6-foor-11 center.

I can't believe you used this as a positive quote, Vonk...

[vonkaar]

The big catch, whether you respect his game or not, was center Erick Dampier, who turned it on last year, averaging 12 points, 12 boards and two blocks after having opted out of his contract with Golden State to become a free-agent this summer. Damp was courted by several GMs, people apparently without access to a TV from 1998 until 2002. The Mavs "won" out by sending a package of cast-offs to the Warriors for the 6-foor-11 center.

I can't believe you used this as a positive quote, Vonk...

Shrug. That's hardly an original thing to say. I didn't edit out any negatives in my quotes... *everyone* was worried about him being a contract-year player.

As to the bolded statement...
Are you fucking serious?
He's not a forward or a guard, sir. I guess I'll go back and get the averages of your top ten... minus Yao and Shaq.

let's see...
Marcus Camby: 10 points 10 rebounds 3 blocks
Ben Wallace: 9.7 points 12 rebounds 2.3 blocks
Rasho Nesterovic: 5.9 points 6.2 rebounds 1.4 blocks
Eddy Curry: 16.6 points 5.9 rebounds .92 blocks
Jamaal Magloire: 11.7 points 8.7 rebounds 1 block
Jeff Foster 7 points 9 rebounds .90 blocks
Samuel Dalembert 8.2 points 7.50 rebounds 1.7 blocks

Seriously... wtf? 12/12/2 is pretty fucking good for a center, especially compared to the people you stacked above him.

And... way to go on avoiding every other point I've brought up. The people who HAVE watched the games know what type of player he is. Ya'll look at the fucking box scores and base your opinions on those numbers. That's sad. I've had the league pass for 3 years now and I know *why* people like Bowen, Prince and even Divac were so important to their teams, even if their box scores sucked. Josh Howard is a perfect example: box numbers aren't exactly breathtaking, but now ya'll are finally seeing what I've preached about since he was drafted.

[xaoshaen]

Shrug. That's hardly an original thing to say. I didn't edit out any negatives in my quotes... *everyone* was worried about him being a contract-year player.

I'm just wondering why you included the quote at all, since there wasn't anything positive in it.

As to the bolded statement...
Are you fucking serious?

Yeah, I'm serious. The man's career year was 12/12/2. That's not an average performance from him, that's the pinnacle of his NBA career. Not a promising sign.

He's not a forward or a guard, sir. I guess I'll go back and get the averages of your top ten... minus Yao and Shaq.

let's see...
Marcus Camby: 10 points 10 rebounds 3 blocks

So, what you're saying is, he's better than Dampier in every single category? See Dampier's actual statistics below.

Ben Wallace: 9.7 points 12 rebounds 2.3 blocks

So, what you're saying is, he's better than Dampier in every single category? See Dampier's actual statistics below.

Rasho Nesterovic: 5.9 points 6.2 rebounds 1.4 blocks

Rasho actually averaged 6.6 boards and 1.7 blocks per game, but we all know that his strength is team defense, which is why he has a better plus/minus than Damp, which in this case cannot be explained by the quality of the surrounding team.

Eddy Curry: 16.6 points 5.9 rebounds .92 blocks

Not one of my top ten

Jamaal Magloire: 11.7 points 8.7 rebounds 1 block

More points, rebounds, steals, and assists per game than Dampier...

Jeff Foster 7 points 9 rebounds .90 blocks

Yeah, Foster is definitely not a stats guy, particularly in Indy's system, as he's not asked to do much that garners box score glory. His plus/minus is significantly better than Dampier's though part of that is a testament to the weakened Indiana team after the suspensions and injuries this year.

Samuel Dalembert 8.2 points 7.50 rebounds 1.7 blocks

Yeah, the 9 year veteran put up better numbers in more minutes than the kid getting his second year of NBA action in perhaps the worst system in the league for him. Shocking.

Seriously... wtf? 12/12/2 is pretty fucking good for a center, especially compared to the people you stacked above him.

Except of course, that Damp's actual numbers are 9.6/8.5/1.4. That's ignoring his anemic steals (0.25) and passing (0.9 apg), and without considering the pace factor (9th in the league) he enjoyed playing on the Mavericks.

And... way to go on avoiding every other point I've brought up. The people who HAVE watched the games know what type of player he is. Ya'll look at the fucking box scores and base your opinions on those numbers. That's sad. I've had the league pass for 3 years now and I know *why* people like Bowen, Prince and even Divac were so important to their teams, even if their box scores sucked. Josh Howard is a perfect example: box numbers aren't exactly breathtaking, but now ya'll are finally seeing what I've preached about since he was drafted.

I've tried, you just haven't made any other points. You haven't told me anything about Howard that I didn't know from seeing him play. I base my opinions off a combination of numbers and observation. It's too easy to be fooled by a subjective observation, particularly when you're a fan of a team.

[vonkaar]

You all said that there wasn't a single person besides me that thinks of Damp in such illustrious light. I posted multiple articles from multiple noteworthy basketball news sites that proved otherwise.

You said that 12/12/2 was a shitty statline for a center. I posted 'current' stats of other decent centers that are far worse than that. You didn't bold out his current stats, you made an insipid statement that 12/12/2 were disappointing numbers. Furthermore, his current stats are absolutely crippled by his injuries, new team and low minutes. Every single one of your other examples besides Magloire played higher numbers and started more games.

I showed how many respected sports writers *have* noticed his impact - you haven't commented on this.

This is getting really stupid... and boring.

[xaoshaen]

You all said that there wasn't a single person besides me that thinks of Damp in such illustrious light. I posted multiple articles from multiple noteworthy basketball news sites that proved otherwise.

I didn't say anything resembling that. I can post more recent quotes from Hollinger stating that Dampier is "stealing money" if you wish, though.

You said that 12/12/2 was a shitty statline for a center.

No I didn't.

I posted 'current' stats of other decent centers that are far worse than that. You didn't bold out his current stats, you made an insipid statement that 12/12/2 were disappointing numbers.

So, essentially you want to use Dampier's one good year, a staggering outlier of a year, and compare it to what people do this season?

Furthermore, his current stats are absolutely crippled by his injuries, new team and low minutes. Every single one of your other examples besides Magloire played higher numbers and started more games.

And a number of them were hampered, either by injuries or by the system they're playing in. Check out their respective PERs and plus/minus numbers... It's going to be extremely difficult to prove that Dampier's numbers were "absolutely crippled" this year, particularly since they're much closer to his usual standards than last's years abberration. It's called regression to the mean: face it, Dallas woefully overpaid for a mediocre center. I note that while you're willing to tout Damp's injury, you've been entirely silent on the statistical benefits he garnered by playing in Dallas' system.

I showed how many respected sports writers *have* noticed his impact - you haven't commented on this.

Right, because a sportswriter assigned a piece on a player, especially for a fluff piece like ESPN the Mag, is a great place to go for objective evaluation... If you want me to, I can dig out tons of derogatory quotes too, I just don't consider it to be a valid metric by which to measure a players performance.

[xaoshaen]

You didn't bold out his current stats, you made an insipid statement that 12/12/2 were disappointing numbers.

Yeah, I'm serious. The man's career year was 12/12/2. That's not an average performance from him, that's the pinnacle of his NBA career. Not a promising sign.

I'll stand by that. When your career best is 12/12/2, that's decidedly mediocre.

[Tacks]

Vonk just admit Dampier sucks