Spurs / Mavs game 3.

[Lyion]

Darko


I don't think anything will ever beat that...

When you consider the pure depth of that draft...

Because, ya know, Detroit just tanked with Darko..

Any team that wins a Championship and is in the finals over a few years probably could care less about a draft. I'm sure other teams would trade their 'better' players for that title.

[Zanchief]

Darko


I don't think anything will ever beat that...

When you consider the pure depth of that draft...

Because, ya know, Detroit just tanked with Darko..

Any team that wins a Championship and is in the finals over a few years probably could care less about a draft. I'm sure other teams would trade their 'better' players for that title.

Imagine that team with Bosh, Carmelo, or freakin Wade? Maybe only for the fact that Wade wouldn't be kickin' their ass every year.

Darko was a disaster.

[Lyion]

Or perhaps Carmelo would be sitting on the bench as they win Champs and we'd be talking about how mediocre he is...

How many Champs have those other guys won, Zan?

Obviously Wade isn't kicking their ass that much, as he watches them go to the finals the last two years....

[Zanchief]

Darko got traded to Olrando for nothing, Lyion. Dumars waved the white flag of defeat on the poor scrub. Why are you still arguing about this?

[Lyion]

Because drafts are not as big a deal as people make them out to be. It's a chance, but it also depends on who's on the roster, the coach, and the chemistry.

Not to mention condemning a 20 year old based on two years on the bench on arguably the best team in the NBA is stupid. He might be good. He might not, but everyone knew he was a project. Also, everyone also knows how Brown is with young rookies, and the fact Darko was screwed from the get go.

It ain't like he's a known failure, like Shawn Bradley. We'll see in 4 years when he's 24, about the age of many rookies, how he's doing. Then we'll know if he was a bust. Not while he's 20.

[Zanchief]

Can't we just link to the old thread were me and Vonk dismantled Xao's arguments as to why Darko is not bust?

I don't have the energy to have the same argument again. Darko sucks. Always has. Always will.

[Zanchief]

http://namelesstavern.com/viewtopic.php ... ight=darko

http://namelesstavern.com/viewtopic.php ... ight=darko

Still waiting on this kid?

[vonkaar]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn...

Josh Howard was picked 29th by the Dallas Mavericks.

TWENTY NINTH in the draft... on a team that won 60, 57, 52 and 50 games in the previous years before. We had a solid core built up. We were drafting roll-players.

Darko Milicic was picked 2nd by the Detroit Pistons.

SECOND in the draft, on a team that won 32, 42, 39, 27 games in the previous years before. They were drafting in search of a STAR. Hell, just 2 years prior, Jerry Stackhouse was their main weapon (29.5 ppg).

The exact same draft class. One of them picked at the top of the board, the other at the bottom. When you are picked on a team with a losing record, you are EXPECTED to fucking EXPLODE. (See Shawn Bradley). I remember reading at LEAST ten predictions (Mark Stein in particular) with Darko as the rookie-of-the year. "The Next Kevin Garnett." Heh. Meanwhile, Josh Howard gets NO playing time... he sits on the bench... doesn't see ANY action for the first 15 games... but slowly... steadily makes his mark during trash games... really starts to impress Don Nelson... He keeps at it... he works out harder than anyone in the gym... he's the first to show up at practice and the last to leave... quietly making his $700k rookie salary (currently at $880k). Eventually, Finley goes down with a bad thigh contusion and Howard earns a starting role for a couple of weeks. Holy hell, he explodes... gets a couple double-doubles... totally impresses the league. What a genius Don Nelson is!

Meanwhile, Darko can't even get 5 minutes a MONTH. Larry Brown is DISGUSTED with the pick. He's making $4m a year on his rookie contract... Addidas paid him crazy cash... to... ride... the bench. He looks stupid out there when Brown plays him during the blowout games (last 5 minutes "trash time")... constant turnovers... etc. People call him a bust even before the all-star break. Cleveland is feeling MIGHTY fortunate that they got the #1 pick =p. Denver is happy with Melo... Toronto is feeling mighty 'franchise' with Bosh (although Dallas sure has our sights on him )... Miami and Wade look happy... Chicago loves Hinrich... L.A. loves Kaman and Livingston (man, they certainly made out that draft, no?)....

And Detroit eventually trades their #2 pick for fucking cap-space.

It's not about foresight. It's about Darko being a fucking bust... in the deepest draft in professional sports history... in the most important draft of the 4 majors.

[Lyion]

What a genius Nelly is. Er, how many Champs does he have again?

Darko can't be a bust unless his career is over. He's not even 21 and Brown is obviously a part of the problem, as he detests rookies and non vets, as has been widely known.

Meanwhile, your Dallas team got to watch that Detroit team in the finals the last two years, so I guess that draft ain't that important.

Amazingly, Detroit will probably make the finals again this year! Soooo.. I guess that draft isn't that important.

[Zanchief]

Dumars did a great job putting that team together, but he still boned that draft big time. No one in their right mind thinks that Wade and Bosh are worse players than Darko.

The Brown excuse was fine last year, but Flip was brought in with a mandate to play him more if he was ready. Guess what? He stinks.

[Lyion]

Of course not, but again Darko was a project and overhyped. Many rookies are overhyped.

And I keep pointing out none of those teams have won it all. Detroit has, sooooo.. Your arguments and Vonks Dallas fanboisim about drafts are somewhat moot. Especially in this era of Free Agency. Starpower is overrated. Team is more important.

Darko hasn't played, period. He did a little in Orlando, but Brown sat him in Detroit. Vonkaars insinuation that Dallas had a more solid core is a bit silly. Dallas has turnover.. See Nash/Finley. Detroit is building the right way and as of now has a better starting five than Dallas.

Arguing about Darko is as silly as arguing about Vince Young. They are question marks. I'm sure Detroit is bummed about their draft. Bummed all the way to the finals the last two years, while stat mongers can, er, praise their teams picks as they sit at home!

[Zanchief]

Who gives a shit how good Detroit is. Darko sucks.

[vonkaar]

Drafts are a crapshot, for sure. It does piss me off to see someone with that amount of talent and upside wasting away due to being a fuckstick.

FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP

Dallas has turnover but you used some really stupid examples...

both of those guys will probably have their jersey's retired... they were here for 7 years...

You should have said, Van Excel, A.Walker, Jamison, LaFrentz, Jackson... the list goes on forever.

Furthermore, WE moved those two guys. Nash would have LOVED to have stayed in Dallas but Cuban turned penny pincher for the first time in his history... and Nash returned the favor by exploding into an assist and point scoring machine. WE let Finley go by way of the amnesty clause... Both Nash and Finley would be in Dallas if they had their (original) choice. "Turnover" implies that we have no control over the loss of our players. We just went through a big 'experimentation' phase is all.

Josh was drafted onto a team that had something like, 7 forwards... two of them were all stars, and Jamison would be a year later. Darko was drafted onto a team that had ONE... and none of them were 7 footers. He should have made an immediate impact. He didn't even make it out of practice. He stunk THAT bad.

Detroit has a great 'big 5' but that's ALL they have. A lot of people have said that they have the weakest bench in the league. If they lose ANYONE, they are finished. Dallas, meanwhile... has one of the deepest benches in the league... I won't say which is the 'right' way to do anything... I personally think that San Antonio's is the 'right' way... and, Detroit can't even say that "their" way is correct because it's Larry Brown's way... and he's sitting in New York anyway...

And actually, he 'did' play in Orlando... and people were 'still' not overly impressed.

[Lyion]

Selective Quotes are your friend.. From that same thread before that. My point is Darko was an underachieving teenager. Wow, who'd a thunk! He was in a shit situation with Larry Brown. Yep. His confidence was shot.

You've been sinking him and promoting Howard since last year, Vonk. It's silly. They are apples and oranges.

Why are you trying to say a 19 year old is at the crossroads of his career?

I'll go on a limb and say in 7 years Darko will be better than 75% of the people you listed, Vonk.

The problem is he's a young guy on a top 5 team. Give him a few years, and he'll possibly be a star.

He's a 7 foot guy with ball handling skills who can shoot.

We'll see Vonk. None of those guys sans Lebron has as much potential as Darko. Given he already has a ring, I'd say he's in a pretty good situation, wouldn't you?

In 7 years he could be the next Dirk. Certainly a better chance than another middle tier guard/forward that anyone can get in any draft.

I'll even sticky this so we can remember

I'll go on a limb and say Darko won't be in the NBA in 7 years.

My point remains if it takes him three more years to develop, get stronger and to learn with a good coach.. he'll be... 23.. and probably starting to pass many in the draft who don't have nearly his potential..

You draft on potential. A middle tier guard and forward is less risky than a 7 foot Euro teenager, but also has less potential.

Obviously pairing a kid with Larry Brown was idiotic.

Let's throw some MORE fuel on the fire!

Yeah. Dirk started out in the same manner as Darko. Hardly played a minute... struggled a lot. There was a lot of negative media about the whole pick... we could have kept Tractor Trailor! You probably remember... I think you were in Dallas back then. By year 2, he EARNED his starting spot. His PPG more than doubled. People stopped complaining... now this German was interesting.

And perhaps if Darko's given a chance he'll earn a starting spot as well. Perhaps he won't. We just haven't seen enough of him to know yet.

James behind Billups would still be a fuckload more productive than a STARTING Darko (see above).

Except that James wasn't productive under Brown. Brown benched his ass too, even when James was one of the most productive players on the team whenever he got on the court.

[vonkaar]

...and probably starting to pass many in the draft who don't have nearly his potential..

Pass many in the draft?

How's he going to do that? He's #2? Who's he going to pass, Lebron? Good luck. Dude was rookie-of-the-year and runner up for MVP in his 3rd year. He'll average a triple-double by his 5th or 6th year... Or was it just a figure of speech? That implies that he's ALREADY DROPPED CONSIDERABLY, which...

just proves all kinds of points, now doesn't it?

And the system that Howard was in was a lot worse than the one that Darko came into. Nellie is notorious as the biggest rookie hater in the league. He doesn't even call them by their names, it's just 'rookie'. Last year, he benched Devin Harris for 5 games for missing a play in the first 3 minutes of a throwaway game against Atlanta... And Devin was brought in to replace Nash. We traded Jamison away just to get a point-guard who could replace Nash... yet Nellie sacrificed 5 whole games of play-time just to teach a lesson. Brown is WAY kinder to rookies than Nellie is. The nicest thing you can say about Don Nelson towards rookies is that he's great at discovering them. That's about it.

You made the statement that within 7 years, Darko would surpass every single person on this list, besides Lebron: Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Josh Howard, Kirk Hinrich, TJ Ford, Chris Kaman, Shawn Livingston, Dwayne fucking Wade, Lebron James. I said that within 7 years, Darko wouldn't even be in the league.

If we polled 10 sportswriters or Vegas oddsmakers, which 'bet' do you think would get better odds? A freaking washout scrub who is making ESPN's "biggest bust ever" lists being dumped out of the NBA, or him suddenly turning around and exploding into the next... hell, I can't even think of comparable player... you'd have to be another Lebron to beat all of those players in 7 years. Do you realize what they'll be like by year 7? Freaking Dwayne Wade in his prime? TJ Ford? Chris Bosh? Good Lord...

[Zanchief]

In 7 years the all-star game is going to be like 30% players from that one draft.

[Lyion]

Stop quoting me out of context, you fuckin stats nerd. I did not say that. That was a list from another thread, and not this one.

The draft is over, for non stat geekfucks. All we're looking at is players and where they are developmental. Obviously Darko did not develop in Detroit and Brown tanked his confidence. However, he remains a skilled guy with the potential to be amazing... and.. he's 20. He certainly needs to be coached and motivated in Orlando.

We'll see where Darko is 7 years from now. He could be out. He could be an All Star.

I made a simple point Darko has POTENTIAL, which is why he was drafted high. Howard had LESS POTENTIAL, which is why he was drafted where he was.

And.. Lebron is one of a kind. Sorry, no comparison, but how often do Lebrons come around? You can pick up a Josh Howard in just about every draft. 6-6 good Small forwards like him are a dime a dozen.

A better question is what could Nelly or Avery do with Darko if he matures and gains a good work ethic to go with his good ball and shooting skills?

[Zanchief]

You can pick up a Josh Howard in just about every draft. 6-6 good Small forwards like him are a dime a dozen.

No Lyion you can't.

[vonkaar]

Oh that's going to be fun...
Josh Howard's story is pretty fucking unique...

Find me a 6'7" small forward who:

1) is picked up at the end of the draft with very little fan-faire
2) is pcked up by a team who already have 4 all-star guard/forwards
3) is picked up by a coach who hates rookies
4) is picked up by a team who was coming off a 60-win season
5) managed to earn a starting role and called the 'second most important player' on the 2nd best team in the West.

rofl, I'm actually wearing a Josh Howard jersey at work while I'm typing this up... I'm such a fanboi

Actually... Just find me some bottom of the draft small forwards who were picked up by a winning team and made equally huge strides in 3 years.

So, that'll never happen... the only example you'll find is Rashard Lewis, but Seattle fucking sucks year after year and I had to spoon feed you that one anyway... plus he took a shitload longer to develop than Howard.

[Spliffs]

Darko really wasn't that bad after coming to Orlando. In >20 minutes a game he averaged about 7 pts 4 rebounds and 2 blocks. That's also in a transitional period where he was getting his only real playing time ever. If you translate that into 30-35 minutes a game, thats more around a 11/7/3 line. Not bad at all for the #2 big man on the team. These stats are only going to go up.

I don't know if Darko will ever be a super star as he was billed. However, I could definitely see him being a solid 15 points, 8-9 boards, and 2.5 blocks a game kind of dude. A perfect complimentary piece.

[vonkaar]

He isn't supposed to be the #2 PF in Orlando, the 'experiment' was, "let's see if he can play the 5." That's a cool theory... and I really LIKE it... I REALLY like what Orlando is doing, to be honest... and the gamble is TOTALLY worth it, for what they gave up anyway. Their centers suck ass, so it couldn't get much worse... Battie?

Anyway... I'll run the numbers for you...

He played 30 games for Orlando.

Averages: 20.93 minutes
Points: 7.6
Rebounds: 4.1
Assists: 1.06
Blocks: 2 (meh, not bad)

That basically puts him in 3rd string center role. That's exactly... EXACTLY Shawn Bradly numbers... which should rub Lyion all kinds of raw. Except, Shawn put up better blocks, which is all the credit I'm giving Darko .

The 'per-48' stat can be totally deceiving...
I mean... Dallas' centers would look like absolute Gods if they played Ben Wallace minutes. But they can't because they don't have his ability to stay out of foul trouble... which is why they look so good on the 'per-48' stats. Check out Diop's 'per 48'... for example...

Desagana Diop (per-48):

Points: 6
Rebounds: 11.86
Assists: .75
Blocks: 4.64

Erick Dampier (per-48):
Points: 11.57
Rebounds: 15.9
Assists: 1.21
Blocks: 2.61

Dj Mbenga (per-48):
Points: 14.1
Rebounds: 9.59
Assists: 0
Blocks: 4.36

some pretty amazing centers right there...

[Rotj]

im jumping on the orlando bandwagon and i think darko could turn out to be decent. i don't think he would get to be as good as the number #2 draft bill but i think a decent player at best. no doubting his bball abilities as his former pistons team-mates were harping about how good he is.. but he prob lacks the mental toughness / focus to hit it big time unfortunately ;(

which makes me sad. cos i bet he'd do well for one season. orlando will overpay his ass. then he'll go back to suckage (money wise compared to performance) leading to.. we get screwed with him..making baby jesus cry.

[Spliffs]

I don't disagree with you at all Vonk, except in the fact that those were his first true minutes ever. He was essentially a rookie and played not even half a season. Young players do get better, and he wasn't *terrible* after coming to Orlando.

Like I said, I could really see him being a 15 pts, 8 boards, 2-3 blocks kind of guy, playing 35ish minutes per game.

Now, as far as the Pistons drafting him goes, I am in complete agreement that they blew it. However, I'm not willing to throw Darko in the trash bin yet. Of course, I am an Orlando fan and have never denied a degree of fanboism for my teams. Objectivity is not my strong suit.

[vonkaar]

Like I said, I could really see him being a 15 pts, 8 boards, 2-3 blocks kind of guy, playing 35ish minutes per game.

That's projecting him to being one of the top centers in the league.

[Zanchief]

Other centers are just gonna abuse this guy if he plays extended minutes at the 5.

He's gonna average a foul a minute.