so, is it wrong that I have more hp than most warriors....

[xaoshaen]

Some of the time it was due to the overwhelming stupidity of the group member involved. Since I grouped primarily with friends as a druid, most of the time, as Taxx said, the situation required us to kill something as quickly as possible.

Again, I've heard that Dire Bear is much better than it used to be. I'll push Xao to 40 one of these days and find out for myself.

[Zanchief]

I can maintain agro with a rogue going balls to the walls agro.

A Mage is another thing though.

[Tacks]

If the rogue is using feint like he's supposed to.

[chanteez]

at 45 in dire bear form i had 3127 hp, with fort and mow

i personally wouldnt have a tank that had less than that for a group, i'm pretty sure medriev/limestone has close to 6083 ac at 53 and high hp, i notice a big diff between the hp/ac warriors and those that are lacking the ac. healing sux on the latter.

p.s. i still hate dire bear form, but if warrior had less hp/ac than myself i would be tempted to use it, and yes we get taunt as well.

[xaoshaen]

at 45 in dire bear form i had 3127 hp, with fort and mow

i personally wouldnt have a tank that had less than that for a group, i'm pretty sure medriev/limestone has close to 6083 ac at 53 and high hp, i notice a big diff between the hp/ac warriors and those that are lacking the ac. healing sux on the latter.

p.s. i still hate dire bear form, but if warrior had less hp/ac than myself i would be tempted to use it, and yes we get taunt as well.

Chant, out of curiosity was that in beta or release? Also, how up to date is your set of tank gear? It's been a while, but I recall pushing 5k hit points in my 40's as a bear (buffed of course). This could, of course, be pure delusion on my part. I'll have to go back and see if I have any screenshots to verify that. My AC was much lower than 6k, but that was prior to the stat rebalancing. I do know that shifted, with sta/AC gear on, I had better stats than some of the warriors in my guild, largely because there wasn't much competition for leather tank gear, I think.

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a druid and a warrior with identical AC mitigate differently, but I've avoided the Blizzard boards like the plague, so it's quite possible that I just missed it.

My issues with Dire Bear never arose from Growl per se. Growl always worked fairly well, but I was missing any secondary aggro generator to supplement it (i.e. DPS, stun). Bash was great, but wiht a one minute cooldown, it wasn't much of a factor in big fights. I was pretty much reliant on Demoralizing Roar, the AE Growl, and Growl to maintain aggro, since the DPS was so shoddy.

[Tacks]

I seriously doubt you had 5k hit points in your 40's.

[chanteez]

its current the over 3k hp at 45, remember this is in my intelligence/spirit gear, not hp/ac gear. no potions, scrolls etc, but fort and mow. Plus i'm spec'd for healing, not at all feral. so of course it could be different if i chose. the drops so far for druids isnt showing like it is for priests/hunters. Leather drops would be good for a feral spec tho.

I havent bothered to get my second set of armour togeather for ac/hp. but will be working on that too.

[xaoshaen]

I seriously doubt you had 5k hit points in your 40's.

Like I said, I'll see if I can find some of my old screenshots. I had crazy hit points in Dire Bear though, more than every warrior I met, save one. Of course, they went and redid their statistic model, and almost all my gear was rendered vendorbait over night. I really only redid my spirit gear at that point until I was close to 60.

[xaoshaen]

its current the over 3k hp at 45, remember this is in my intelligence/spirit gear, not hp/ac gear. no potions, scrolls etc, but fort and mow. Plus i'm spec'd for healing, not at all feral. so of course it could be different if i chose. the drops so far for druids isnt showing like it is for priests/hunters. Leather drops would be good for a feral spec tho.

I havent bothered to get my second set of armour togeather for ac/hp. but will be working on that too.

From what I've seen, feral spec is almost entirely worthless. I went ahead and did Feral Spec with Xao, out of perversity, and the idea that I might as well just play a priest if I want to spec balance/rejuv. If I ever give him significant run time again, I'll have to respec. With a mage, priest, and rogue on the table already, I don't really have an incentive to play the druid, save to group with friends in their 30's.

[chanteez]

i had a priest in beta to mid 40's, still dont like them near as i do my druid.
I dont find it versatile enuf for my playstyle. Whenever i get more hp/sta gear i'll post stats in dire

[Zanchief]

We loved grouping with Xao.

For mid lvl instances the versatility of a druid is awesome. You can switch from off tank to DPS rogue to healer buffer depending on the situation.

Sucked that you rerolled but thats life.

[xaoshaen]

We loved grouping with Xao.

For mid lvl instances the versatility of a druid is awesome. You can switch from off tank to DPS rogue to healer buffer depending on the situation.

Sucked that you rerolled but thats life.

You know, that would have been useful information several months ago, Zan! I've actually been playing Xao a bit, since I need to get him to 35 for Artisan leatherworking.

[Tacks]

We figured you got tired of playing druid. I was kinda mad when you restarted.

[Langston]

You were mad that he started a new character?

WTF.

[xaoshaen]

We figured you got tired of playing druid. I was kinda mad when you restarted.

Well, I was a bit tired of playing a marginalized class, which I've wound up doing in almost every MMO I've played, but I restarted in part to play with Glic, and in part because we had too many healers and not enough mages.

[Tacks]

You were mad that he started a new character?

WTF.

yeah Ugzug I literally threw a picture of Xao across the room so it shattered when it hit the wall.


fucking moron

[DangerPaul]

You did that when I quit. I know, Kizz told me.

[Langston]

Hey - YOU used the words... I simply said "WTF". If you meant something else, then type something else. I don't now, nor have any desire in the future, to read your mind, Sparky.

[Tacks]

Honestly I don't give a shit what you think, k

[Langston]

The keep posting about it... you're starting to make me believe you.

[Keletarise]

Wow.....





Anyways, back to the subject at hand...


I have both a high level Warrior and have rolled what is still a low level Druid (for fun):


Addressing the hit point question: In WoW, 1 STA = 2 hit points + level modifier - PERIOD


So if a Mage invests in STA gear and a Warr does not, then the Mage will have more Hit points.

What Plate wearers (Warr/Pally) DO get is (physical) Damage Reduction. My Warr gets 46% when dual weilding or using the 2 hander, and 56% when tanking Sword/Shield. So if the Warr gets 2000 damage thrown at it, it will actually take either 1,080 or 880, depending on whether I'm killing or tanking. But the game is simply not set up so Warriors can do both at once - You must choose to be either a somewhat decent killer, or an excellent tank. Many/most PvE Warriors go for killing in the low~Mids, but respec to defense at higher levels when they realize that Warrior DPS simply does not scale up to the level needed to bring down high level beasts before being killed themselves. PvP is all about the most damage quickest - So expect to deal with full Arms/Fury builds almost exclusively.


Playing both the Druid and the Warr - There is NO WAY a Druid or a Shaman can out-tank a Warrior. Forget it. Not going to happen. A good player can make a big difference, but other classes just don't have then same Aggro control tools. In Druid's Bear form, I am a somewhat decent tank. But I have a LOT of Warrior experience and there is a LOT more to being a Warrior than simply walking over to stuff and whacking away. So my personal skill as a Warr translates over to Bear form - I know how/when to use the taunt (Growl). But a Bear is not a Warrior, and never will be. As far as the Bear-Form Rage generation issue - I haven't noticed one, but that's because Warriors have the same Rage generation problems and I'm just used to it now.

The druid's advantage as a tank is that they can shift out, heal, and go back to tanking. Warrs have to hope the group's healer is sharp, or drink a pot and hope that the one is enough. (Suggested new Warior Talent - "Drinking Problem" - Reduces Potion timer) But a Feral form simply will not equal a sword/shield Warr in damage reduction, though so far it appears to be reasonably close to a dual/2H config. Same as a Druid's cat form not being the equal of a dedicated Rogue. Though according to the WoW forums, Gizzard is working on scaling higher level Cat damage and may be adding a real finishing move. But it's sweet to have a char that can do a bit of everything - it's fun! That's why I rolled a Druid, anyways.

Also, even though Pallys are FAR more survivable, they have almost no tools for controlling aggro, except trying to hit something hard enough to get it's attention. This is VERY difficult when the group's Mage starts nuking and the Priest lets loose with some serious healing spells. I've seen spellcasters get WASTED because the the Pallys they were with could only whack away at the mobs. If there was a Warrior present: Taunt, Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout (AoE taunt) are all very effective tools at distracting mobs away from the ones who are actually killing them. Defensive Stance generates additional threat and talents can raise that even higher (up to 9%, which equals FIVE character levels when maxed). They work. I know how to use them, and because of that my dance card is full. Pallys are SWEET for soloing and PvP, and are incredibly hard to kill. Much moreso than a Warrior. But they just don't have the tools for controlling aggro that a Warr does.



Enough blathering on.... Hit points is hit points. Plate Wearers get Damage Reduction, not Hit points. Warrs advantage is in Aggro control, and most definitely NOT in killing or outright Survivability. Killing belongs to Mages, Warlocks, Rogues, and Hunters. Pallys are the most survivable and bring sweet buffs to the table. Druids and Shamen have some of the best buffs in the game, and can fill in the blank spots in almost any party depending on what's needed at the time.

My $2.00 (because I like to type...)


Kel

[Langston]

Everyone gets the same number of hitpoints per point of stamina. Any class focused on stamina gear is going to have a lot... warrior, priest, or rogue.

Warriors are more and more coming to find out that if they're overly stamina-geared, they will have issues with taunt. This has caused a swing to lower HP higher strength warriors.... and it's been pretty effective.

I personally try to maintain an even stamina/strength ratio... keeping it close to 1/1 with strength being the winner if I am forced to choose. At 49 with no really special gear, I'm holding agro perfectly fine through the use of my skills and good weapons and my unbuffed HPs is around 3200 (tauren... so I have the small bonus). I am by far and away not a high HP tank - and my strength is in the "fair" category compared to those who live in instances and/or purchase extraordinary gear. But I'm doing just fine.

So, to answer the earliest question of the thread - it all depends on how much you personally focus on stamina gear for your character.

[Atalya]

our guild tank is at about i think 5kish hp and 7kish armor meanwhile i know druids that hit 4500 hp and 6500 armor quite easily in bear form but they dont tank anywhere near as well as our warriors. We have a warlock in our guild that hits 4600 ish hp when buffed on raids as his build is sta/int and he also has the talent that gives 33% less spirit for 33% more sta or whatever, which is nice when they hell fire but really i have 2800 hp as a mage and i dont care =p

[Zanchief]

I have 4.5khp 8k ac and about 420defense.

You don't need str gear to hold agro, str is pretty much useless for Warriors.