What Class

[Treehorn]

Priest with shadow spec. solos very well. Quite powerful (really felt like easy mode when I came back to my priest alt from my mage alt). They may lack the get out of jail free card that rogues and hunters have, but they manage just fine. Can usually manage to Scream and run away if things get too hairy (usually fight +2-3 above level, >+3-4 above and resist rates make life inefficient, and efficiency is where it's at).

Sure, the grind routine (MB, SW:P, Flay, MB, wanding until dead, or one last flay on death runners) gets a bit repetitve, but then what class's doesn't after you've repeated it for the 3,000th time?

[10sun]

Unbridled Wrath was just filler, nothing better to spend the points in.

I used swords more than axes because they generated more aggro, at least they seemed to. Bleeding doesn't stack. You aren't thinking about innate crit percentages anyways.

Two Handed Weapon spec was just filler as well. I wasn't allowed to charge a lot while instancing, thats why I dropped that a long time ago.

Even without the bleeding damage from Deep Wounds, crits should outdamage extra swings as long as you have Impale. My crit percentages with maces, daggers, and swords were all identical (within the margin of error) for my rogues, but obviously I didn't get to play with axes. Do warriors have a different innate crit percentage with different weapons that I've ignored? In any event, it shouldn't matter for the purposes of talent selection as far as I can tell, since you're adding a 5% chance to crit or get an extra swing in either case.

Did you try Improved Hamstring? It seems like it would be a liability in PvE most of the time, but as I'm on a PvP server, it may well be more useful.

I was also using weapons with innate chances to get extra swings, the only innate crit percentage is from your agility percentage + 5% or something like that(I can't remember to be quite honest). Nothing special per weapon or anything, I just liked the extra swings in all reality, did a better job tanking than most of the cookie cutter MS builds, which lead me to believe it had something to do with more aggro generated with extra swings opposed to crits / damage dealt.

Never tried Improved Hamstring, I quit before the BGs went live. So yeah.

[Donnel]

Holy Talents - 14 points

Spiritual Focus - rank 5/5
Improved Holy Light - rank 3/3
Illumination - rank 5/5
Divine Favor - rank 1/1

Same 14 here.

Protection Talents - 6 points

Improved Devotion Aura - rank 5/5
Toughness - rank 1/5

I'm taking Prot down to reckoning.

Retribution Talents - 31 points

Benediction - rank 5/5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization - rank 5/5
Deflection - rank 5/5
Vengeance - rank 5/5
Seal of Command - rank 1/1
Precision - rank 3/3
Consecration - rank 1/1
Conviction - rank 5/5
Blessing of Kings - rank 1/1

Ret down to seal of command, taking benediction and 2h spec.

Holy
Spiritual Focus Rank 5
Improved Holy Light Rank 3
Illumination Rank 5
Divine Favor Rank 1
Holy Total: 14


Protection
Redoubt Rank 5
Improved Blessing of Protection Rank 2
Toughness Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 5
Improved Blessing of Freedom Rank 5
Reckoning Rank 5
Holy Shield Rank 1
Protection Total: 26


Retribution
Benediction Rank 5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5
Seal of Command Rank 1
Retribution Total: 11

Although at some point I will prolly ditch retribution and go down to repentance.

I switch frequently between 1h and shield and 2h so the choice between redoubt or devotion was a non issue. Couple that with the fact that I run with concentration almost exclusively and the choice was even easier.

[xaoshaen]

Priest with shadow spec. solos very well. Quite powerful (really felt like easy mode when I came back to my priest alt from my mage alt). They may lack the get out of jail free card that rogues and hunters have, but they manage just fine. Can usually manage to Scream and run away if things get too hairy (usually fight +2-3 above level, >+3-4 above and resist rates make life inefficient, and efficiency is where it's at).

Sure, the grind routine (MB, SW:P, Flay, MB, wanding until dead, or one last flay on death runners) gets a bit repetitve, but then what class's doesn't after you've repeated it for the 3,000th time?

Eh, I haven't been that impressed by a shadow priest's solo abilities. Mind flay is one of the best tools they have, and it requires either a partner or Shield to be really effective. They lack the Lock's ability to juggle health, and the Mage's ability to summon food and water at will, which makes them more dependant on another class, or on purchased sustenance. They're effective enough at grinding singles, and handle undead adds reasonably well, but overall, I wouldn't put them in the same tier with Locks, Rogues, Hunters, or a top-notch mage. If they have a partner to duo with their effectiveness shoots through the roof, however.

[Donnel]

Shadow Priest + Pally = win

Although really, any dps + a pally in PvE is win.

[xaoshaen]

I was also using weapons with innate chances to get extra swings, the only innate crit percentage is from your agility percentage + 5% or something like that(I can't remember to be quite honest). Nothing special per weapon or anything, I just liked the extra swings in all reality, did a better job tanking than most of the cookie cutter MS builds, which lead me to believe it had something to do with more aggro generated with extra swings opposed to crits / damage dealt.

Could just have been crappy warriors with MS builds too. I don't know how many warriors I've seen who were absolutely incapable of holding aggro. Once a shaman starts pulling aggro with melee (and without Rockbiter), no build on the planet is going to save the warrior.

I'd be interested in seeing if a swing has an innate amount of aggro, in addition to that caused by damage. It'd be a bitch to test though.

[xaoshaen]

Shadow Priest + Pally = win

Although really, any dps + a pally in PvE is win.

I was half of a Rogue/Priest combo for a while. It was nothing short of disgusting.

[Donnel]

I was also using weapons with innate chances to get extra swings, the only innate crit percentage is from your agility percentage + 5% or something like that(I can't remember to be quite honest). Nothing special per weapon or anything, I just liked the extra swings in all reality, did a better job tanking than most of the cookie cutter MS builds, which lead me to believe it had something to do with more aggro generated with extra swings opposed to crits / damage dealt.

Could just have been crappy warriors with MS builds too. I don't know how many warriors I've seen who were absolutely incapable of holding aggro. Once a shaman starts pulling aggro with melee (and without Rockbiter), no build on the planet is going to save the warrior.

I'd be interested in seeing if a swing has an innate amount of aggro, in addition to that caused by damage. It'd be a bitch to test though.

It's kinda the general consensus that Seal of Fury causes "shadow hits" to happen for no damge which is what causes it to build the extra aggro. This seems plausible given the fact that if you judge light or wisdom then use fury at high ranks (where it apparently makes a bunch of phantom hits) you get more then one mana or hp boost per normal swing.

Getting 4 or so heals or mana refresh on a swing is not unheard of at high levels of fury.

This makes me think that swings themselves generate threat.

[brinstar]

i've played a warlock to 43, a druid to 48, and a warrior to 60 (nearly all my valor gear, udstrat/scholo items because i don't have time to raid)

while it's true that any class can solo, i found the warrior much harder to level than the lock or the dr00d.

bottom line is though that if you take the time to learn your class, you can solo all the way to the top.

[Metranon]

I'm also a bit curious as to why you chose Sword spec over Axe. Are there just more good swords available? As far as I can tell, with the appropriate talents, a crit should do more damage than an extra swing: 100% base damage + 100% crit bonus + 60% bleed damage + 20% additional crit bonus = 280% damage, while an extra swing nets you 200% damage, modified by hit percentage.

sword spec also has a 6% chance to go off on every ADDITIONAL attack, meaning every extra attack with sword spec, HoJ, windfury also now has a 6% chance to provoke an additional attack

also what a previous poster said...deep wounds doesn't stack with itself so once it's up once, any future crits just re-apply it whereas sword spec is extra damage all the time.

Finally 5% extra crit will not give you that much more burst DPS really. while 6% may not seem like a big chance, believe me when you charge a mage with OEB and it goes off twice in less than a second so you get melee hit+2 sword spec hits+MS hit+whirlwind off before the person can even react, it's pretty satisfying.

[xaoshaen]

sword spec also has a 6% chance to go off on every ADDITIONAL attack, meaning every extra attack with sword spec, HoJ, windfury also now has a 6% chance to provoke an additional attack

If you specialize in axes, you gain a chance to crit on each of those attacks as well, save for any additional attacks generated by Sword Spec itself. The latter factor we can largely discount: the odds of getting a double bonus from the spec check in at just over a third of a percent.

also what a previous poster said...deep wounds doesn't stack with itself so once it's up once, any future crits just re-apply it whereas sword spec is extra damage all the time.

And as I said, even without Deep Wounds, Impale will give you more damage (220%) than a second swing (200%). Are you really worried about critting so often (particularly with a weapon like the OEB you mention later) that you're going to crit more than once in a twelve second period? Two or more crits with a bigass two-handed weapon, and the fight is largely over anyways. Say you manage to crit twice in a 12 second period, on consecutive swings. Furthermore, suppose your weapon is fast enough that the first proc never kicks in, and you reduce it's effectiveness to 50%. This is still adds thirty percent of your base damage to each of the crits.

Finally 5% extra crit will not give you that much more burst DPS really. while 6% may not seem like a big chance, believe me when you charge a mage with OEB and it goes off twice in less than a second so you get melee hit+2 sword spec hits+MS hit+whirlwind off before the person can even react, it's pretty satisfying.

Given that it happens once every 300 attempts, I hope you find it ridiculously satisfying. Oddly, even when it does occur, it's only slightly more damaging than critting once instead of swinging three times (280% damage versus 300% damage, assuming all three swings connect).

I did make one crucial mistake: I overlooked sword spec's 6% chance at rank 5, which does change the equation. Let's reexamine the situation with the correct numbers.

Five percent more crits at 220% damage, completely ignoring Deep Wounds, add 6% more damage.

A six percent chance of adding an additional sword strike translates to 6.38% more swings. Given a 95% hit rate, this translates to 6.061% more damage. This declines proportionally to your hit rate.

Now, we add Deep Wounds into the equation. Assuming that the worst feasible result (in terms of the talent's effectiveness) occurs, and all the warrior's crits occur in pairs, each proc adds 30% of the base damage, giving the crits 250% total damage, which at a 5% rate, translates to an 7.5% damage increase, or about a 24% advantage for Axe spec.

Clearly, in terms of raw damage, Axe spec is significantly more efficient than Sword spec. In terms of aggro? I'm not sure. Atensen and Donnel have offered enough anecdotal evidence to open the possibility that swinging twice may generate more aggro than doing 2.8 times your normal damage.

[Metranon]

remember to also note that as of patch 1.8 your attack power when using a slow 2h axe with MS, overpower is calculated as if the weapon were 3.3 speed.

However, you can use a 3.8 speed sword with sword spec, and your extra attacks still benefit from the increased attack power from being slower than 3.3

When it comes to math i'm like rainman except the only big number i'm good with is the amount of hash left in my jar...but nonetheless read up on some high end warrior forums and you'll see that for top warriors, sword spec is the king duck now, assuming you've got a OEB or better.

however the big reason why sword spec is better may be the following:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51920

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51823

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40747

[xaoshaen]

remember to also note that as of patch 1.8 your attack power when using a slow 2h axe with MS, overpower is calculated as if the weapon were 3.3 speed.

However, you can use a 3.8 speed sword with sword spec, and your extra attacks still benefit from the increased attack power from being slower than 3.3

You're comparing two entirely different situations here. Regardless of whether you use the axe or the sword, both receive the same diluted attack power calculation for Mortal Strike, and both receive the same full strength calculation for their specialization, be it extra criticals with the axe or extra swings with the sword. The exception to this is when an instant attack crits instead of gaining a second attack. I have absolutely no idea what percentage of crits would suffer from this.

however the big reason why sword spec is better may be the following:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51920

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51823

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40747

Yep, itemization is a major consideration. If I was in a position to wield any of those, I'd respec to swords in a heartbeat.

[Metranon]

You're comparing two entirely different situations here. Regardless of whether you use the axe or the sword, both receive the same diluted attack power calculation for Mortal Strike, and both receive the same full strength calculation for their specialization, be it extra criticals with the axe or extra swings with the sword.

you're missing my point here

if i use mortal strike Arcanite Reaper and score a critical, my attack power bonus to damage is calculated as if my weapon were 3.30 speed, not 3.80 speed...for the total damage

if i use mortal strike with a 3.80 speed 2 handed sword and score a critical, my attack power bonus to damage with mortal strike is calculated as if my weapon were 3.30 speed. In addition, I have a 6%+ chance to gain an extra attack, for which the attack power is calculated as normal, using the 3.80 weapon speed.

[10sun]

oh, also innate proc chances are cool too.

-Adam

[Arlos]

Donnel, you must be speccing yourself strictly for PVP, otherwise your build makes no sense whatsoever. (Well, beyond the 14 in Holy) If that's the case, you're never going to be as good a soloer as someone with a PVE based spec.

-Arlos

[Donnel]

Why do you say that?

The only thing in my build that is strictly pvp is reckoning really. I am going for a strong pvp build though. I like being corporal atm

What am I missing besides Judged Fury and Consecration that would make me better in PVE (and who needs judged fury and consecration when you solo anyway?)

I don't like kings personally. BoM is better for DPS, BoW better for casters, the only person who would really benefit from kings imo is the main tank. I swap blessings too often anyway when I group or solo that having to med or heal up the increased health and mana pool every time I put on kings would be a pain. (I rarely carry around water for some reason).

If I need an aggro boost to tank in a group, judge fury, holy shield + SoR.

I don't see how my spec would be bad in PvE.

[Arlos]

Protection
Redoubt Rank 5
Improved Blessing of Protection Rank 2
Toughness Rank 3
Shield Specialization Rank 5
Improved Blessing of Freedom Rank 5
Reckoning Rank 5
Holy Shield Rank 1
Protection Total: 26


Retribution
Benediction Rank 5
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5
Seal of Command Rank 1
Retribution Total: 11

OK, a few things:

1) Benediction is functionally useless unless you have Consecrate. There's nothing else in the Retribution line that costs appreciable mana. You're far better off getting Improved Blessing of Might, even if you don't use it on yourself. Any rogue or warrior you happen to group with will certainly appreciate it.

2) Improved Blessing of Freedom is absolutely strictly a PVP choice. There is no time in PVE that the extra 5 seconds will be useful, certainly not if you have either DS or BOP available, as BoF won't help against Daze, and the list of PVE-generated snares that aren't Cleansable is very very small.

3) If you're really intent on Holy Shield, which is by all accounts a good talent, I do realize you need to spend the 5 points on something lower tier. I know I would spend those 5 points on some combination of Improved Devotion Aura and/or the remaining points in Toughness. I know you use Concentration aura, but why all the time? The only thing you cast in combat that might get interrupted is heals, so why not use Devo by default, then swap to concentration to cast the heals if you feel it necessary, then swap back? You're not getting 700-900+ armor by not using Devo, that's a significant amount of mitigation you're missing out on. How exactly does Concentration help you when you're swinging away and either just casting judgements/seals or not casting at all? I can count the times I've used Concentration in a non-PVP setting on 1 hand, just about. Basically, it consists of 1 encounter, Razorgore, because it helps with interrupts on the channeling of the orb controller.

4) Reckoning is, as you said, primarily a PVP talent. I dunno how fond I am of it, honestly, since it gives you at best an extra attack at random intervals. Trying to set up Reckoning bombs is tricky and prone to failure. I personally see a much better use (even for PVP) in putting those points into Deflection. That's an extra 5% absolute avoidance there. Depending on how much +Defense gear you're sporting, that could just about double your base parry chance, which is huge. Parry even helps you against executes, mortal strikes, hamstring attempts, etc. etc.

Ultimately, the 2 main PVP builds for paladins are Holy Shock and Repentance builds. There's a 3rd place one, 8/21/22 (Holy: SF 5, Imp Holy Light 3, Prot: up to Holy Shield, Retribution: up to Consecrate, incl Command, Deflect 5 and Vengeance 5) as well, but those're the main two. Protection builds are pretty much strict PVP builds for the most part, as most of talents in there only benefit you in PVP. (though, repentance is excellent in PVP for true) There are very few PVE-specific builds that I've seen that go very deep into the protection tree, with the sole exception of some paladins in raiding guilds who go that deep so they can pick up Improved Blessing of Salvation, for 15 min salvations. No more than 1-2 per guild do it though, and they're deliberately making themselves less individually effetive in order to get that one specific talent.

-Arlos

[Donnel]

All very true.

However you failed to mention WHY I would be less effective in PVE, while stating that what I DID take was mainly for PVP.

There's not alot in the paladin trees (pre 1.9 cross fingers) that really sets you apart from the base class.

And benediction helps shave off quite a bit off judgement which I use constantly.

Improved blessing of might adds about 2.3 dps. Yay.

[Arlos]

1)Deflection will help you in PVE vastly more than Reckoning will. We're talking orders of magnitude difference. Nearly doubling your parry chance is *HUGE* in increasing your PVE survival rate.

2) Running Devotion Aura over Concentration aura will get you several percent more mitigation, which helps significantly towards survival in PVE.

3) Spending the 5 points you spent on Imp BoF on Toughness and Imp Devo will get you even more armor, which will help your mitigation even more, further improving PVE survival rate.

4) I still don't think that judgement uses enough mana to justify spending 1/10 of your entire talent pool on reducing its cost. If you're going holy shield, you're going to be in 1h+shield a big chunk of the time, which means your DPS is already going to be really low. Anything you can do to improve it is going to shorten fights dramatically, which further enhances PVE survivability.

-Arlos

[Donnel]

I guess I was going for more of a balanced approach.

1) Balanced approach, I wanted the PVP utility of Reckoning.

2) This isn't a talent build choice. And I typically run with concentration, though I use devotion often too. Especially in pvp however when a delayed heal = a dead teammate (2.5s heals ftl)

3) Again, balance won here. You are right though, BoF is a PVP skill.

4) *shrug* 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other. Had to choose one to get to tier 2.

When I need mitigation I have it. I kill stuff solo that makes my guildies green with envy. When I throw up my defense, I've got over 50% mitigation which considering I have no twink-ability makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[Arlos]

1) Honestly? I feel that Deflection will help you more in PVP than Reckoning will. That's nearly doubling your chance to parry an Execute, Mortal Strike, Hamstring, Wing clip, etc. etc. etc. Plus, it doesn't trigger Overpower.

2) Again, unless you are actively about to heal, there's no reason to have concentration up. Helps you not one iota.

3) Even as a PVP skill, I'm not sold on imp BoF. Given the frequency of buffs getting dispelled/purged, anything dispellable rarely lasts for its full duration anyway. Also, even if it DOES last, 10sec is usually enough time to get some separation, you don't really need 15.

4) Judgement isn't that much mana. Plus, you can only cast it max every 15 sec. So, you're saving a negligible amount of mana every 15-30sec, instead of doing more damage with every single hit. Your choice, obviously, but not the way I'd do it.


Ultimately, pallies are, as I said, absolutely excellent soloers, if you're talking about survivability rate, and what level of mobs they can take on. They are, however, excruciatingly sllllooowwwwww soloers.

-Arlos

[xaoshaen]

You're comparing two entirely different situations here. Regardless of whether you use the axe or the sword, both receive the same diluted attack power calculation for Mortal Strike, and both receive the same full strength calculation for their specialization, be it extra criticals with the axe or extra swings with the sword.

you're missing my point here

if i use mortal strike Arcanite Reaper and score a critical, my attack power bonus to damage is calculated as if my weapon were 3.30 speed, not 3.80 speed...for the total damage

if i use mortal strike with a 3.80 speed 2 handed sword and score a critical, my attack power bonus to damage with mortal strike is calculated as if my weapon were 3.30 speed. In addition, I have a 6%+ chance to gain an extra attack, for which the attack power is calculated as normal, using the 3.80 weapon speed.

The exception to this is when an instant attack crits instead of gaining a second attack. I have absolutely no idea what percentage of crits would suffer from this.

[Donnel]

1) Honestly? I feel that Deflection will help you more in PVP than Reckoning will. That's nearly doubling your chance to parry an Execute, Mortal Strike, Hamstring, Wing clip, etc. etc. etc. Plus, it doesn't trigger Overpower.

2) Again, unless you are actively about to heal, there's no reason to have concentration up. Helps you not one iota.

3) Even as a PVP skill, I'm not sold on imp BoF. Given the frequency of buffs getting dispelled/purged, anything dispellable rarely lasts for its full duration anyway. Also, even if it DOES last, 10sec is usually enough time to get some separation, you don't really need 15.

4) Judgement isn't that much mana. Plus, you can only cast it max every 15 sec. So, you're saving a negligible amount of mana every 15-30sec, instead of doing more damage with every single hit. Your choice, obviously, but not the way I'd do it.


Ultimately, pallies are, as I said, absolutely excellent soloers, if you're talking about survivability rate, and what level of mobs they can take on. They are, however, excruciatingly sllllooowwwwww soloers.

-Arlos

1) PvP is about burst dps. Setting up a Reck Bomb is not that difficult especially if you remember that your job in AB is #1 to heal. If you stand around healing, you will definately get targeted by a rogue or hunter, at which point, your bomb is set. Target a squishie and one shot them. You can't parry magical attacks. As far as wing clip, hamstring, etc, see #3

2) In PVP you are always about to heal. The 1 second global cooldown is all the time a shaman needs between shocks to kill you.

3) You don't use freedom to get seperation. You use it to keep on top of that hunter, or to negate the earthbind (and with improved your blessing lasts as long as their earthbind cooldown, minus purge). Note that priests and shamans (I am pretty sure) are the only two classes that can strip buffs and you always assume they won't purge until they actually do. In fact, just last night was the first time I've actually seen more then one shaman purge and I've been pvping these same shamans for a couple weeks now. These two are not the only two classes that have snares/immobilizes, however. For those things not cleansable, bof is infinately more useful then other talents in that tier.

4) Judgment gets more expensive the more mana you have. You don't save much with 2k mana but with 4k or 6k mana it starts adding up. Given that the only other option would be to get improved blessing of might, that's a non issue for me, as in most group situations I give out Light more often then Might. (depends on the group dynamic, and whether or not I'm the main healer)