Penis Question

[Darcler]

So Gid and I are having a boy. With boys, come penis questions, the big one....and really only one being, do we circumsize?

I dont know Gid's stance on it, as I havent asked him, but I dont know how I feel about it.
On one hand, it is a medically unneccissary procedure, more work during the early month, keeing the site clean and lubed up with Vasoline and such.
On the other hand, I want my son to have a pretty penis. I dont want him to grow up and see another boy in the locker room and be all like wtfmate why's mine all different. And then if he hates it enough, he would have the procedure anyway with more pain and he would remember it. He wouldnt remember anything when he was a week old.

So boys, what are your views on this? Are you glad to be cut/uncut? Do you despise your parents for their decision?

I need input to sway my decision.

[The Kizzy]

Well, I'm not a boy, but there are pros and cons to both.

The circumsized penis looks more appealing, as you said before, and can greatly reduce the chance of infection, as infection breeds in the folds of the skin.

Now, to not get circumsized.........the only thing I have heard is that the guys feel more pleasure during intercourse. But can this be medically proven? I do not know.

Kids are mean, they will find anything to make fun of other kids about, it is of my opinion not to give them another reason.

[Minrott]

Cut cut snip snip turtlenecks are dirty.

[Jimmy Durante]

On the other hand, I want my son to have a pretty penis. I dont want him to grow up and see another boy in the locker room and be all like wtfmate why's mine all different.

Uncut johnsons are not uncommon, so I wouldn't fret over your son being ostracized for that reason. Aesthetics appear to be the biggest consideration, out of the points you raised.

On a related note (but unrelated to your son), I'd check out the cultural origins of circumcisions as it is rather eye opening.

[Lyion]

Circumsized and never had any regrets or issues. My kid is circumsized because the Mom wouldn't have it any other way.

Something to consider, one of my buddies is not circumsized and has had his two boys snipped because of issues he went through with infections and a very interesting story of hurting himself with a zipper... lol

I'd research it further, and certainly take Gid's opinion into account.

[Tae-Bo]

this russian guy i knew didnt get circumcized until he was 17 and said having a foreskin was nothing but a pain in the ass and sex was less pleasurable with it

[Darcler]

I honestly dont want to even think of my son having sex, but it is one of my reasons as well, the pleasure aspect of it for him.

I'm sure Gid would want it done, as he is circ'd also. (I'm sure he likes me talking about his penis to youpeople)

[Martrae]

None of my brothers were snipped and I don't recall that they ever had problems. I do vaguely remember them being taught to pull the skin back and clean it properly so they wouldn't have issues.

My sons are because Kahar insisted on it, though.

[Adivina]

Snip snip!

I can't offer any compelling advice, just that it looks silly when its not snipped.

[Narrock]

They say it's best to circumsize the baby if the father is circumsized, or to not circumsize if the father is not circumsized. I also heard on a talk show recently that more people nowadays are opting to not circumsize.

[Darcler]

They say it's best to circumsize the baby if the father is circumsized, or to not circumsized if the father is not circumsized. I also heard on a talk show recently that more people nowadays are opting to not circumsize.

To lessen confusion when it comes to "the talk"? I'm leaning towards the snip, but it is still an unneeded procedure.
People are opting not to do it for that reason.

[Narrock]

They say it's best to circumsize the baby if the father is circumsized, or to not circumsized if the father is not circumsized. I also heard on a talk show recently that more people nowadays are opting to not circumsize.

To lessen confusion when it comes to "the talk"? I'm leaning towards the snip, but it is still an unneeded procedure.
People are opting not to do it for that reason.

Yeah, that was the biggest reason. When he's like 2 he's gonna ask Gidan, "Daddy, why does my hawg look different from yours?" lolz

[Trielelvan]

I was originally hardcore against getting the procedure done when we were due with our first, but Jj, my dad, and his dad had very compelling arguments on the "for" side, primarily being that a) the chances of infection drop to near 0, b) that we did NOT want him to have to go through this when he's older for any reason, and c) (courtesy of Jj of course) he isn't likely to get his cock sucked as often if it isn't.

more work during the early month

No it's not.
It's 2 days worth of vaseline touch up, and a couple more days to finish healing. You can't give them but a sponge bath at first anyway because of the umbilical cord. Just remove the gauze after the first day, then vaseline around the head until it's healed. That's all. It's not any extra work at all really.
As a newborn, the wound, as it were, heals within a day or so of being cut - they heal really fast. Both of my boys are circumcised, and neither of them took longer than a few days to really heal.

The reason I decided to go ahead with it is because of this:
In addition to the number of men both our dad's have known that had to be circumcised in their adulthood, Jj's uncle had to get circumcised at age 34 due to complications from his medications. He was on bedrest for over a month, and couldn't walk for a good 2 or 3 weeks. The wound did not fully heal until about 3 months afterwards.
Before puberty, the nerves and blood vessels are still immature in the foreskin. Once a boy hits puberty, and on into adulthood, that whole area develops and matures, the blood vessels enlarge, and the nerves fully develop, which equals longterm pain, and takes even longer to heal as adults.

Note: I absolutely demanded that my boys be given both a topical numbing cream AND local anethesia of the area to make them fully numb, and I sat at their sides, holding their hands and feeding them a bottle to keep them calm, and watched as the doc performed step by step. I also requested that the doc use a "bell" - it just removes that outer flap ring and leaves a very, very clean cut.

In the event that you both decide to have your son circumcised, do NOT NOT NOT buy into that bullshit about "newborns don't feel pain." The fuck they don't. Insist on being there for the procedure to make SURE they numb him and go by your requests (no... I do not trust doctors or hospitals in any way, shape, or form). If they won't allow it or won't numb him (or was like our first pediatrician who wanted to put my one week old under general anethesia... fucking wacko) then say NO and take your son to a pediatrician who WILL comply with your requests within the first 3 weeks of birth and have the procedure done then. We had to pay out of pocket, but it was only $120.

Sorry for the book, but I saw so many moms in the hospital just give in to the docs regarding circumcising their sons without a second thought.
Thank you for having the brains to actually ask. I got so mad at one mom next door to me I almost threw a bedpan at her.

[Jay]

I'm surprised this question wasn't PM'd to me since I'm asian which automatically makes me the foremost expert on uncircumsized penii.

[Darcler]

Thank you Trie, that was very useful to me.

I know that newborns can feel pain. But he wont remember us doing this to him when he's 16 and is already angsty enough lol.

I was watching Dr. 90210 (I'm addicted to plastic surgery shows) and Dr. Li had her son circumsized by a Rabbi...they arent jewish so I dont know why they did this. I cried when they snipped the tip because the baby was crying so loud, but he got over it about 30 seconds after he was done hehe.

Oh, I will totally be there with him if we do this, I cant just let someone cut parts of my child without me being there.

And I only said early month because my friend's son's skin started growing back funny, he had a fused penis and they had to rip that webbing apart.

[Harrison]

No turtles, cut that shit

[DESX]

If this matters at all. The article was posted a while ago on yahoo as well.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8473838

• Circumcision May Prevent Millions Of HIV Deaths

MEDPAGE TODAY
•HIV Infections Top Million Mark in U.S.
The prevalence of people living with HIV in the United States has topped one million.
Physicians... Earn CME with your medical news
MSNBC
Updated: 2:24 p.m. CT July 5, 2005
Male circumcision reduces the risk that men will contract HIV through intercourse with infected women by about 70 percent, according to a study reported in The Wall Street Journal.

After discovering the dramatic results, French and South African researchers halted the study about nine months in order to offer the uncircumcised men the opportunity to undergo the procedure, the newspaper reported.

The results of the study have not been published in a medical journal, although the French researcher who headed the team is expected to present them at an International AIDS Society conference in Brazil later this month.

Story continues below ↓
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The study was conducted on more than 3,000 HIV-negative South African men, ages 18 to 24. Half of the men were randomly selected to be circumcised while the other half remained uncircumcised.

After following the men for a year, the researchers found that for every 10 uncircumcised men in the study who became infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, only an estimated three circumcised men contracted the virus, the newspaper reported.

The study is considered significant because scientists have yet to discover an effective vaccine against the HIV virus or develop a reliable way to prevent infection other than through abstinence or safe-sex practices.

[Darcler]

Weird.
Thanks for that.

[Martrae]

I know I read something recently about the American Academy of Pediatrics (or something like that) recommending circumcision not be done as routine anymore but I can't remember where I saw it or why they said that.

Regardless, do what you and Gid are most comfortable with.

[Jimmy Durante]

This thread has me wondering: exactly how many family members, friends, firemen, park mimes, former POWs and bowling alley waitresses got together and mulled over the future of my wedding tackle?

[Snero]

pretty decent website with lots of pros/cons, they do seem to have done a bit more research into the negative aspect though

Circumcision Positions of Advocates and Critics




PAIN
Advocates
"Clearly, circumcision is painful" (p. 1244) [1]. Circumcision without pain medication is "barbaric" (p. 1245) [1].
Critics
According to a comprehensive study, newborn responses to pain are "similar to but greater than those observed in adult subjects" (p. 1326) [2]. Circumcision is overwhelmingly painful and traumatic [3, 4]. Some infants do not cry because they go into traumatic shock from the overwhelming pain of the surgery [5]. No experimental anesthetic has been found to be safe and effective in preventing circumcision pain in infants [3]. Changes in pain response due to newborn circumcision have been demonstrated at six months of age, suggesting lasting neurological effects and a symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder [4].

COMPLICATIONS
Advocates
Circumcision has low risk, less than 1% [6]. Most complications are bleeding and infection.

Critics
The true incidence of complications is unknown [7]. The rate of surgical complications was reported to be from 0.2 to 38 percent [6, 8]. (The higher rate included complications reported during the infants' first year.) Realistic short-term complication rates are between 2-10% [9]. There are over 20 known short-term complications, including bleeding, infection, surgical injury, and in rare cases, death [8]. This does not include complications discovered later in life, problems caused by circumcision but not attributed to circumcision, or unrecognized harm.

INFANT BEHAVIORAL RESPONSE
Advocates
This aspect of circumcision is not discussed by advocates.

Critics
Various studies have found that short-term effects of circumcision include changed sleep patterns, activity level, and mother-infant interaction, more irritability, and disruptions in feeding and bonding [2].

URINARY TRACT INFECTION (UTI)
Advocates
According to a meta-analysis, circumcision reduced the risk of developing UTI in the first year of life by a factor of 12, and the absolute risk of an intact (not circumcised) boy developing UTI was approximately 1 in 100 [10].

Critics
The methodology for studies claiming that circumcision reduces the risk of UTI complicates making any conclusion [11]. They do not account for confounding variables such as breastfeeding [12], urine collection method [13], definition of UTI [14], and rooming in [15]. For a rate of 1%, 100 boys would have to be circumcised to prevent one UTI, which might be prevented by breastfeeding or rooming in. A Japanese study of 603 boys who were not circumcised did not find one case of UTI [16]. This further suggests methodological problems with attempts to claim a strong association. UTI is easily treatable with antibiotics [17].

PENILE CANCER
Advocates
Reports of several case series noted a strong association between lack of circumcision and penile cancer [18]. Advocates believe that "invasive penile cancer could be virtually eliminated in the United States by routine newborn circumcision" (p. 621) [19].

Critics
There are no American studies of the incidence of penile cancer and its association with circumcision status. Penile cancer is rare, and the estimated American incidence is about 1 per 100,000 [20]. In other developed countries where circumcision is rare, such as Denmark and Norway, the incidence of penile cancer is lower than the estimated American rate [21, 22]. Penile cancer occurs generally in elderly men [20]. Therefore, a male may make a decision to be circumcised when he is older without losing this claimed benefit.

SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES
Advocates
Based on a meta-analysis of published studies, intact men had approximately 3 times the relative risk for HIV infection and increased risk for genital ulcer disease [23]. (Many HIV studies were done in Africa.) A review article concluded that intact men were 2 to 8 times more likely to become infected with HIV [24]. Circumcision reduced the risk of genital ulcer disease, including syphilis and chancroid [23].

Critics
Studies are conflicting for each sexually transmitted disease [25]. Sexually transmitted diseases and circumcision involve behavior, hygiene practices, culture, and religion, and it is impossible to control all the confounding variables that affect sexual behavior and circumcision status. Circumcision may increase the risk of developing gonorrhea and chlamydia. "Based on the studies published to date, recommending routine circumcision as a prophylactic measure to prevent HIV infection in Africa or elsewhere, is scientifically unfounded" (p. 16) [26]. In a study on transmission rates of HIV from infected males to uninfected females and from infected females to uninfected males in Uganda, the authors found that circumcision status was not a significant factor in the risk of transmission [27]. Sexually transmitted diseases obviously cannot be transmitted until an individual engages in sexual activity. Therefore, a male may make a decision to be circumcised when he is older without losing this claimed benefit.

SEXUAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS
Advocates
In a national survey, circumcised men reported less sexual dysfunction than intact men [28]. Women prefer circumcised sexual partners [29]. Psychological effects are not recognized.

Critics
The difference in reported sexual dysfunction above is not statistically significant [30]. The Williamson study consists of young, Midwestern, 98% white mothers. They live in an area of the country with the highest circumcision rate, and 78% of the group had no experience with intact men.

In a more recent survey, women with longer dual experience preferred anatomically complete men overwhelmingly to circumcised men [31]. Without the foreskin to provide a movable sleeve of skin, intercourse with a circumcised penis resulted in decreased vaginal secretions, more vaginal discomfort, harder and deeper thrusting of the partner, less chance of having an orgasm, less frequent orgasms, less frequent multiple orgasms, and shorter duration of coitus.

Circumcision results in a significant loss [32]. The foreskin is an integral, normal part of the penis. It protects the head of the penis and is comprised of unique zones with several kinds of specialized nerves that are important to optimum sexual sensitivity. Investigators found that circumcision removes about one-half of the erogenous tissue on the penile shaft. The foreskin on the average adult male is about 12 square inches of highly erogenous tissue [33]. Men circumcised as adults reported a significant loss of sensitivity [34].

A description of the complex nerve structure of the penis explains why anesthetics provide incomplete pain relief during circumcision [35]. Cutting off the foreskin removes many fine-touch receptors from the penis and results in thickening and desensitization of the glans outer layer. The complex anatomy and function of the foreskin dictate that circumcision should be avoided or deferred until the person can make an informed decision as an adult.

In a national survey, circumcised men reported they were more likely to engage in masturbation, heterosexual oral sex, and anal sex than intact men [28]. The result suggests that circumcised men seek alternative forms of stimulation to compensate for reduced sensitivity.

A poll of circumcised men described adverse outcomes on men's health and well-being [36]. Findings showed wide-ranging physical, sexual, and psychological consequences. Some respondents reported prominent scarring and excessive skin loss. Sexual consequences included progressive loss of sensitivity and sexual dysfunction. Emotional distress followed the realization that they were missing a functioning part of their penis. Low-self esteem, resentment, avoidance of intimacy, and depression were also noted. Male satisfaction with circumcision depended on knowledge about circumcision. The more men knew, the more likely they were to be dissatisfied. They wished they had a choice.

Circumcision is traumatic, and the long-term psychological effects of circumcision are similar to the long-term effects of trauma [37]. Using four case examples that were typical among his clients, a practicing psychiatrist presented clinical findings regarding the serious and sometimes disabling long-term somatic, emotional, and psychological consequences of infant circumcision in adult men [38]. These consequences resembled complex post-traumatic stress disorder and emerged during psychotherapy focused on the resolution of perinatal and developmental trauma. Adult symptoms associated with circumcision trauma included shyness, anger, fear, powerlessness, distrust, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, and sexual shame.

ETHICS
Advocates
Ethical issues are not discussed by advocates.

Critics
When circumcision is performed, it does not treat any disease, injury, or other health problem. Since there is no urgency to do it, it must be delayed until the child is old enough to make the decision for himself [39].

Circumcision violates a major principle of medical practice: First, do no harm. It also violates all seven principles of medical ethics [40]. Some doctors and nurses refuse to perform or assist with circumcisions because of ethical considerations [41, 42]. They have organized to form Doctors Opposing Circumcision and Nurses for the Rights of the Child [43, 44].

The AAP Committee on Bioethics report states, "Pediatric health care providers. . . have legal and ethical duties to their child patients to render competent medical care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else expresses. . . .[T]he pediatrician's responsibilities to his or her patient exist independent of parental desires or proxy consent" (p. 315) [45]. See also Response to American Academy of Pediatrics Policy Statement .

[The Kizzy]

Something else I thought of after telling you last night to Snip the Tip.

You think it would be more work in the beginning to have it done? Think of all the cleaning work you will have to do for YEARS if you DONT have it done.

SNIP THE TIP.

[Lionking]

shear your little sheep.

[Zanchief]

Cut his feet off too while you're at it. If you get it done early he'll never remember. Just take him out back with an axe and it'll be fine. You'll be completely removing the chance of him getting ingrown toe-nails, and he'll be much cleaner now that he doesn't have to clean his feet. Virtually no chance of having a foot odour problem too, which will probably help him get laid later in life.

[The Kizzy]

I take it that Zanchief is not snipped.