Good Artilce on Real ID

[Lyion]

Real ID is bad? Compared to what?

By Phil Libin
http://news.com.com/Real+ID+is+bad+Comp ... 73278.html

Story last modified Thu Apr 05 06:40:59 PDT 2007


The Department of Homeland Security has published the proposed details of the Real ID act, and criticism is starting to pour in from all sides. The Real ID act is supposed to standardize driver's licenses issued by the states. Supporters say that this is necessary to improve security. Critics usually focus on the weakening of privacy protections. The arguments and counterarguments usually don't bother to address each other and, lofted on volume rather than substance, quickly grow heated and dim.

There's a way to have a meaningful debate on this. Any new security proposal must be compared to the status quo on four dimensions: Security, privacy, convenience and cost. If the new proposal is clearly better at all four, then it's a no-brainer. If the new program is worse on all four, then, well, it has no brains. What if the new program is better on some dimensions but not on others? Should we weigh the relative merits and compromise? Yes, eventually, but not right away! Since the new proposal enjoys the airy freedom of not actually existing yet, we should go back and rework the proposal until it is overwhelmingly better than the status quo.

If we just throw our hands up and refuse to engage Real ID, we'll get the lousy law we deserve.

What is the status quo that Real ID is aiming to replace? Basically, each state has its own standards for driver's licenses, which differ on many of the important details. This is pretty bad across all four dimensions.


Security is a mess under the current systems. Methods of collecting, verifying and storing background data differ from state to state, as do the physical protections on the cards themselves and the qualifications of the people that handle your licenses. It's not terribly difficult to get a fraudulent driver's license in any state, and it's easier in some states than others. This kind of setup is structurally likely to worsen over time as people "shopping" for a fake license disproportionately target states known to have weak security. The argument that monoculture and homogenization of systems are generally bad for security doesn't apply here; all the state systems don't have to fail for a terrorist to get a fake license--it only takes one.

At the security line at Chicago O'Hare Airport, a New York driver's license is functionally equivalent to a California license. Since the federal government has to treat all the licenses as equal, it's perfectly reasonable to ask that they all be equal. And not just equal, but at least passably secure. Real ID can improve this.

Privacy with the status quo isn't much better. All of your personal data is already stored on your license and can be read electronically by anyone with a simple 2D bar code scanner. DMV databases are susceptible to data theft, and there are no consistent regulations for what you're allowed to do with a driver's data. With the bar set so low, Real ID should be able to provide a significant privacy upgrade, so it's disappointing that the initial proposed language is mostly mute on privacy. If passed today, Real ID would probably do no net harm to our already meager privacy, but this isn't good enough. Let's work explicit privacy protections into the plan. Real ID should be about real privacy and real security.

Convenience, usually the single most important factor in the successful adoption of new security programs, is pretty much a wash here. The quality of the worst licenses will go up and more attention to training should even out the experience of dealing with DMV staff, but most people won't notice a difference in convenience. My friend who routinely gets extra special airport security treatment because his official DC license is so poorly printed that it looks completely fake, will feel better, but most people won't care.

Cost is tricky as well. Initial adoption of a new driver's license standard will certainly be more expensive in the short term, but the efficiencies of scale and standardization may save money over time. Is this wishful thinking? Probably.

So how do we judge Real ID? We are already living with a national-scale identity system, except it's an accidental system that sucks for security and privacy and is lackluster in convenience and cost.

Is Real ID overwhelmingly better? Not yet, but it can be made so. Let's.

[Arlos]

Again, my argument against a national ID plan isn't so much on the privacy issues, though they are cogent, but against the very concept in and of itself. Right now, we have complete freedom of movement in this country. I can, with no ID and just a fat wad of cash, get on a bus, travel around the country and go anywhere, any time, for any reason, without a single piece of ID. Sure, I can't get on a plane, but that's a seperate situation.

Right now, you can get by without a picture ID of any kind whatsoever. It may be a bit hard to accomplish certain things, but it's possible. Forcing everyone to get a universal ID card lessens that freedom, and lessens our freedom to travel around the country as we wish, if suddenly we have to show "PAPERS PLEASE" to any officious asshat with a private security badge and delusions of grandeur.

Sorry, no.

-Arlos

[Evermore]

its really funny how supporters of this actually think it will be an improvement. this continues to ignore 2 facts: 1. The entity that will supervise this who is non functional to begin with and who's answer to everything is to throw more of what already doesnt work on top. 2. Its unconstitutional as the fed government does NOT have the power to do this.

this statement alone says is enough reason to stop this insanity.

If passed today, Real ID would probably do no net harm to our already meager privacy, but this isn't good enough. Let's work explicit privacy protections into the plan. Real ID should be about real privacy and real security.

If any supporters of this "big-brother" legislation really want to change opponents minds, stuff like this should be accomplished FIRST. this same crap was said about the social sec numbers and look at them now.

[lareau]

The've talked about similar up here in Canada but it's going no where either. In our case, I think they want to combine all the cards (driver's licenses, medical card, sin card etc) into one card. It probably got shut down because of security concerns.

In this case, I think it makes a lot of sense. it's kinda nuts to have 51 different driver's license.

Have none of the smaller states pool together their resources to make a common license?

[Lyion]

Why is an entity needed to follow a standardized state based system? It's still the states individual system, it just would be similar instead of woefully different. The act needs work, but that's why we have a legislative branch, to add the things necessary to enable the system to be optimal.

The whole point is instead of 50 disparate systems that work shoddily, you'll have one system that is more efficent <albeit probably shoddy> that interoperates and removes a lot of the red tape, and fraud, with less personal information leaking through the cracks.

I do not see it infringing on anyones liberty if done properly, and I see it as saving a lot of money and being more secure.

[Arlos]

Again, my issue isn't so much with HOW it is done, it is that every person in the US will be REQUIRED to get one. Right now, if you wish to, you can, with work, live "off the grid" to a large extent. As soon as you have a mandated government controlled trackable ID card, that goes away. No, SSC isn't this already, there's reasons why you can't use your SSC as an ID, beyond the fact it doesn't have your picture.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

No, they won't as far as I know, Arlos. it is simply standardizing drivers licenses so they work cross system better and more efficiently.

[Arlos]

Read the original post of the law. It required everyone to have one and present it in a number of occasions, including bus travel, train travel, etc. Basically, all sorts of functions that today require no ID, would now require having a Real-ID card. And that's just the initial spate of requirements. Sure it's a slippery slope argument, but who know what other actions the government will decide requires ID to perform in the future, in the name of "Security".

All of the other issues, security, etc. are secondary to me. It is the fact that everyone, period, in the country would be REQUIRED to obtain one of these ID cards, and use it for any number of currently uncontrolled actions is where my major beef lies.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

I've read the actual article and I can't find that part, Arlos. Again, it does not infringe on state law in regards to traffic.

The act covers primarily is:

-What data must be included on the card;
-What documentation must be presented before a card can be issued
-How the states must share their databases.

The laws for the actual use are still in place at the state level.

Also, this is not legislation that is passed or in final form, so I'm sure it'll go through some revisions. What you are representing is not how I understand it, Arlos.

[Eziekial]

Why not just stamp people with a super secret military code on their forearms? It solves all your security concerns lyion and that way no one can say they "left their wallet at home."

[Evermore]

Why not just stamp people with a super secret military code on their forearms? It solves all your security concerns lyion and that way no one can say they "left their wallet at home."

The mark of the beast

[Arlos]

Just tattoo bar codes across our foreheads at birth.

-Arlos

[Eziekial]

I like that one too. That way, you know who's one of us and who is one of them from a distance. May have to ban hats though. Might want someone to start researching the health effects of wearing a hat for too long so we have that round chambered and ready to go.

[Lueyen]

Jeeze guys get with it, bar codes are old technology for disposable packaging. Implanted micro chips is the way to go, not only can they be used as identification they can also be tracked.

[Arlos]

There you go, RFID tags like they use on stuff in stores to stop shoplifters. Just put in some micro-GPS circuitry, and whammo, the government is all set.

-Arlos

[10sun]

What happens when your ID gets stolen?

[Evermore]

What happens when your ID gets stolen?

dont implant it in your dick

[Lueyen]

What happens when your ID gets stolen?

dont implant it in your dick

I dunno if the device has a listening component it could be damed entertaining thinking about what big brother was having to listen too.

[10sun]

*About to rant about Citizenship as that is where this topic leads me*

My real thoughts on a nationwide ID card: No.

Nationwide standardization in Driver's Licenses: sure.

I don't want to require that all citizens register themselves and I think making a nationwide ID card is the first step on a slippery slope towards enforced citizen registration.

I know people in their 20s, in their 30s, & even some in their 40s that do not have driver's licenses. They do not need them, any time they need to travel someplace far away they either take the bus or have a friend drive them to an airport.

My Oma as well does not have a driver's license, she is 88 years old. She has not had one in the past 20 years. She is a naturalized US citizen at this point, but 5 years ago she was not. She simply used one of her passports depending on where she was travelling to (she has multiple citizenships & consequently passports, British, Irish, & Dutch... which brings me to the topic of how fucking cool she is, but that is another story for another day). What happens to people in that situation? She is undoubtably a citizen at this point, she may detest the current government, but I highly doubt she is going to hijack any cruise ships and blow stuff up.

I am at the point of rambling because my family's citizenships are all sorts of fucked up and it causes the weirdest problems. My aunt became a citizen 5 years ago and she has lived all but the first 6 months of her life in New Jersey. She had issues 3 years ago coming back from a cruise to the Carribean and we had to have a family member drive to Philly, get her original immigration paperwork and a bunch of other documentation before she could be let back into the United States. She is 55 years old and is the grandmother of 5 children... two were not yet born, but the other 3 were there and the oldest was crying and asking why his grandmother was being detained.

Similar things happen all the time to my family, half of my father's brothers and sisters were born abroad. I would bet that at least 2 or maybe 3 of them wouldn't be able to obtain a Nationwide Driver's License because of the Department of Homeland Security.

Oh and for the record, my grandparents were invited over here by the United States Government after World War 2 because of their war efforts.

What the fuck has changed in the past 60 years?

-Adam

[Lueyen]

To be sure 10sun, our immigration system needs serious reform, and I'm not talking about a broad free for all path to citizen ship. For those that have all along made the attempt to stay legal and in some cases went to extraordinary lengths of wading through bureaucracy to obtain citizenship there needs to be a fast track and a reduction of the red tape.

I think I mentioned one of the clients of my company who originally immigrated from India over a decade ago and is still trying to get his citizenship. The guy has opened and purchased multiple businesses and made vast improvements to his community in doing so yet we still can't decide if we want him as a citizen.. it's completely stupid. Basically he's accepted the fact that he will have to keep jumping through paperwork hoops until he eventually gets there... but at this point it should have been proven to anyone just how bad he wants to be a citizen of the US.

[Eziekial]

And who again wants that same organization holding the keys to every citizens identity???

I have a great idea too! Lets put reform ENRON and have them take over running Social Security!

[Lueyen]

Hehe not I, and for pretty much that reason, I don't believe the bill is fleshed out enough, and is to free with how the information is shared and what it can be used for. In short I believe it would be something identity thieves would celebrate.