Presidential Debate #1

[ClakarEQ]

There's just something about obama that makes me not trust him. No, it's not because he's black, and it's not because he's a closet muslim. He just has an air about him that is totally untrustworthy. I can't say the same for McCain. If obama DOES lose the election, you can bet that he's going to try to buy the election with his attorneys, like algore's pathetic attempt. Then if that fails, he's going to play the race card and announce that the only reason he lost is because he's black. LOL

I just had to respond to this one. I look at McCain and I see an old dog, one foot in the grave, risk taker, someone who won't concede when he's wrong. I actually see complete arogance when I look at him. Much of his life was silver spoon, he got where he is with daddys help, he is unethical in life and in politics. I look into his eyes and see satan, just as bush looked into putins eyes and saw trust or some shit LOL.

Obama got where he is by his own drive and determination, and while things may have come easier for him once he was "in" to say you look at him and don't trust him, I just don't get that.

[Drem]

me either, but mindia's never really made any sense. like i said in an earlier post he just gives half-answers or loose points that people can openly interpret. he'll never tell you why he think Obama's untrustworthy, because he doesn't even know. well he does, but it's due to the most ridiculous reasons in the fuckin world so he has to say they're not the reasons he thinks that way about him ("No, it's not because he's black, and it's not because he's a closet muslim.")

America's full of a lot of stupid people and they cling on to their small, self-centered worlds with their lives. so they vote in stupid douchebags like Bush and McCain who talk a fast one that appeals to their bizarre lifestyles that'll overpopulate and ruin the planet (christians, rich people, old people, pro-life, etc.,) and then they get in office and just SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND like there's no tomorrow. and when we get a president like Clinton, who actually helped the country earn money and repair our battered foreign appeal, the people like mindia just focus on internsex. and then the types of people that should be instantly wiped clean from the country (racists, internalists, industrialists, socialites, insane patriots, etc.,) get to keep on keepin on. i'm tired of seeing the forward-thinking party get smashed by a bunch of reserved tards who can't or won't accept change

i mean honestly i'm just flabbergasted that anyone can look me straight in the eyes after watching the palin video (viewtopic.php?f=32&t=19037&start=125) and tell me she's qualified to be the vice president of our country. what a fuckin joke! she can't even remember basic US history! an 11th grader in AP history could be a better vice president. but of course none of them will ever try to argue with your or defend her. they just say "I LOVE HER SO MUCH SHE'S SUCH A GREAT CHOICE." give me a break. she's a typical example of a stupid american that thinks they can do anything and everything. now that she's actually being put on the spot, she's just failing miserably from one public appearance to the next. i bet in hindsight, she cries every night

but we really aren't headed down a very good path to begin with..... i mean.... WE BUILT A WALL TO KEEP MEXICANS OUT............ that alone should be the end of our country's good name. this isn't fuckin China, we're not keeping out tribes of ravaging barbarians. shit i bet we didn't even take the time to make it look good like the great wall. for fuck's sake. our priorities are so backwards

[Lueyen]

America's full of a lot of stupid people and they cling on to their small, self-centered worlds with their lives.

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.

Peas in a pod.

so they vote in stupid douchebags like Bush and McCain who talk a fast one that appeals to their bizarre lifestyles that'll overpopulate and ruin the planet (christians, rich people, old people, pro-life, etc.,)

These people are overpopulating and ruing the planet? Man if they'd just quit clinging to their lives all would be well. Take note kids, that this is the same kind of thought process that drives communist revolutions that necessitate large scale bloodshed or starvation of people. Can't have that bizzarre lifestyle of wanting to actually live now can we.

and then they get in office and just SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND like there's no tomorrow.

No argument there in regards to the Republic party as of late in regards to fiscal conservatism you'd think most were Democrats.

and when we get a president like Clinton, who actually helped the country earn money and repair our battered foreign appeal

Yep world image of us tends to improve when we give away military technology secrets, turn a blind eye to genocide and tie our military's hands so that we get our asses kicked by 3rd world thugs (in the event that we actually do anything when our embassies or soldiers are attacked, the rest of the world really loves us when we just ignore those and move along).

, the people like mindia just focus on internsex.

Otherwise known as lying to a grand jury under oath.

and then the types of people that should be instantly wiped clean from the country (racists, internalists, industrialists, socialites, insane patriots, etc.,) get to keep on keepin on.

I thought the first list of people that needed to roll over and die for your utopia society was missing some (although etc. tends to imply others). Although they aren't specifically stated on your lists, I suspect jews, and gays rank right up there as well.

i'm tired of seeing the forward-thinking party get smashed by a bunch of reserved tards who can't or won't accept change

Yes they must roll over and die! Their existence and blight on society is crime enough they are enemy's of the state that must be put down.

i mean honestly i'm just flabbergasted that anyone can look me straight in the eyes after watching the palin video (http://namelesstavern.net/viewtopic.php ... &start=125) and tell me she's qualified to be the vice president of our country. what a fuckin joke! she can't even remember basic US history! an 11th grader in AP history could be a better vice president. but of course none of them will ever try to argue with your or defend her. they just say "I LOVE HER SO MUCH SHE'S SUCH A GREAT CHOICE." give me a break.

Hmm not too much different from your "forward-thinking party". Now I'm not saying that I disagree with your general qualification for VP in having a decent knowledge of US history but if you are going to apply that to Palin and say she is unqualified, then the same would go for Biden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTBZHf6WyG0

she's a typical example of a stupid american that thinks they can do anything and everything. now that she's actually being put on the spot, she's just failing miserably from one public appearance to the next. i bet in hindsight, she cries every night

Funny thing about stupid people who don't believe others assertions that there is something they can not accomplish, they tend to go on and accomplish great things. As a side note these types tend not to cry at night, but rest so they can pull themselves back up the next day.

but we really aren't headed down a very good path to begin with..... i mean.... WE BUILT A WALL TO KEEP MEXICANS OUT............ that alone should be the end of our country's good name. this isn't fuckin China, we're not keeping out tribes of ravaging barbarians.

No walls have been built to keep Mexican's out. People are still able to immigrate or visit, all a wall does is to ensure they do so in a legal fashion, enforcing laws which were instituted for the purpose of national security. Unlike Canada, Mexico doesn't give a rats ass about who crosses it's border. When it comes to the issue of illegal aliens and labor, it is our responsibility to stop exploiting these people, in fact for the health of our society is must end. The absolute worst thing we could do in this regard is to follow the same path of the last 20 or so years where we build up a population pool of second class citizens... which is really just thinly masked slave labor.

shit i bet we didn't even take the time to make it look good like the great wall. for fuck's sake. our priorities are so backwards

Having priorities backward is worrying more about how a wall looks rather then how well it functions.

On a final note Drem, I've been rather busy the last few days or I'd have responded to this and your previous post regarding me sooner. Unfortunately your assessment of my general habits was incorrect, and I don't have time to spend all day reading forums and formulating my arguments. I wondered why you chose to bash me on a personal level rather then stick to topics, I thought maybe you couldn't formulate a coherent argument until I saw this post. This post made it clear however, it's not that you can't formulate an argument, it's that your general thought process is so wacked that you have to mask it otherwise those crazy people with bazaar lifestyles see you for what you truly are, someone who ascribes to the beliefs of some of the worst social architects in modern history. Americans in general tend to reject out of hand these insidious ideals and thought processes, not because they are stupid but because they have seen all to clearly the eventual outcome of this type of rationalization. The fact of the matter is that people like you do far more to hurt actual forward thinking by attaching your brand of thought to it than the unwashed masses ever could.

[Arlos]

Everyone has the right to their own opinions and beliefs on how the country should be run. Everyone has the right to any religion you so chose as well.

There are a few important things to note, however:

1) Having your own belief on how the country should be run does NOT give you ex cathedra rights to do so.

2) Having a religion gives you no right whatsoever to try and inflict that religion on anyone else, and that includes trying to get laws that mirror your religious tenets passed, as not all religions have the same tenets.

3) The previous 8 years have proven that allowing people with beliefs similar to Bush's on how the country should be run to actually run the place fucks the nation right in the ass, without benefit of lube, and thus we need to go to a different set of beliefs, ASAP.

4) The last set of operating principles running this country did quite well, all personal foibles about getting one's knob slobbered by ugly interns aside, so it would seem prudent to give the group of people with similar beliefs a shot at doing so again, especially when the current set placed us somewhere lower than Cowturdistan on the prosperity scale.

5) Religion has provided a source of direction and comfort for innumerable people, and at least in theory should be a source of good in the world. I don't think anyone can argue, however, that in reality Religion ALSO serves as a vehicle for hatred, discrimination, killing, wars and oppression, especially if it's the religious authorities that gain temporal power. Thus, a need to be especially attentive to attempts to legislate religious morality.


So, yes, Lueyen, you are entirely entitled to your beliefs. You'll just excuse me if I don't want to let anyone who gets even close to them another 4 more years in power with the opportunity to truly turn this country into something straight out of The Road Warrior, after the last 8 years of Bush's execrable example, OK?

-Arlos

PS. Ignoring Genocide, like Bush has ignored in Darfur? That genocide? How about the one we helped stop by going into the former Yugoslavia? Last I looked, we stopped it, and right now Serbian leaders behind it are up for war crimes trials in The Hague.

[Drem]

America's full of a lot of stupid people and they cling on to their small, self-centered worlds with their lives.

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.

Peas in a pod.

so they vote in stupid douchebags like Bush and McCain who talk a fast one that appeals to their bizarre lifestyles that'll overpopulate and ruin the planet (christians, rich people, old people, pro-life, etc.,)

These people are overpopulating and ruing the planet? Man if they'd just quit clinging to their lives all would be well. Take note kids, that this is the same kind of thought process that drives communist revolutions that necessitate large scale bloodshed or starvation of people. Can't have that bizzarre lifestyle of wanting to actually live now can we.

and then they get in office and just SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND SPEND like there's no tomorrow.

No argument there in regards to the Republic party as of late in regards to fiscal conservatism you'd think most were Democrats.

and when we get a president like Clinton, who actually helped the country earn money and repair our battered foreign appeal

Yep world image of us tends to improve when we give away military technology secrets, turn a blind eye to genocide and tie our military's hands so that we get our asses kicked by 3rd world thugs (in the event that we actually do anything when our embassies or soldiers are attacked, the rest of the world really loves us when we just ignore those and move along).

, the people like mindia just focus on internsex.

Otherwise known as lying to a grand jury under oath.

and then the types of people that should be instantly wiped clean from the country (racists, internalists, industrialists, socialites, insane patriots, etc.,) get to keep on keepin on.

I thought the first list of people that needed to roll over and die for your utopia society was missing some (although etc. tends to imply others). Although they aren't specifically stated on your lists, I suspect jews, and gays rank right up there as well.

i'm tired of seeing the forward-thinking party get smashed by a bunch of reserved tards who can't or won't accept change

Yes they must roll over and die! Their existence and blight on society is crime enough they are enemy's of the state that must be put down.

i mean honestly i'm just flabbergasted that anyone can look me straight in the eyes after watching the palin video (viewtopic.php?f=32&t=19037&start=125) and tell me she's qualified to be the vice president of our country. what a fuckin joke! she can't even remember basic US history! an 11th grader in AP history could be a better vice president. but of course none of them will ever try to argue with your or defend her. they just say "I LOVE HER SO MUCH SHE'S SUCH A GREAT CHOICE." give me a break.

Hmm not too much different from your "forward-thinking party". Now I'm not saying that I disagree with your general qualification for VP in having a decent knowledge of US history but if you are going to apply that to Palin and say she is unqualified, then the same would go for Biden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTBZHf6WyG0

she's a typical example of a stupid american that thinks they can do anything and everything. now that she's actually being put on the spot, she's just failing miserably from one public appearance to the next. i bet in hindsight, she cries every night

Funny thing about stupid people who don't believe others assertions that there is something they can not accomplish, they tend to go on and accomplish great things. As a side note these types tend not to cry at night, but rest so they can pull themselves back up the next day.

but we really aren't headed down a very good path to begin with..... i mean.... WE BUILT A WALL TO KEEP MEXICANS OUT............ that alone should be the end of our country's good name. this isn't fuckin China, we're not keeping out tribes of ravaging barbarians.

No walls have been built to keep Mexican's out. People are still able to immigrate or visit, all a wall does is to ensure they do so in a legal fashion, enforcing laws which were instituted for the purpose of national security. Unlike Canada, Mexico doesn't give a rats ass about who crosses it's border. When it comes to the issue of illegal aliens and labor, it is our responsibility to stop exploiting these people, in fact for the health of our society is must end. The absolute worst thing we could do in this regard is to follow the same path of the last 20 or so years where we build up a population pool of second class citizens... which is really just thinly masked slave labor.

shit i bet we didn't even take the time to make it look good like the great wall. for fuck's sake. our priorities are so backwards

Having priorities backward is worrying more about how a wall looks rather then how well it functions.

On a final note Drem, I've been rather busy the last few days or I'd have responded to this and your previous post regarding me sooner. Unfortunately your assessment of my general habits was incorrect, and I don't have time to spend all day reading forums and formulating my arguments. I wondered why you chose to bash me on a personal level rather then stick to topics, I thought maybe you couldn't formulate a coherent argument until I saw this post. This post made it clear however, it's not that you can't formulate an argument, it's that your general thought process is so wacked that you have to mask it otherwise those crazy people with bazaar lifestyles see you for what you truly are, someone who ascribes to the beliefs of some of the worst social architects in modern history. Americans in general tend to reject out of hand these insidious ideals and thought processes, not because they are stupid but because they have seen all to clearly the eventual outcome of this type of rationalization. The fact of the matter is that people like you do far more to hurt actual forward thinking by attaching your brand of thought to it than the unwashed masses ever could.

So what'd that take, an hour and a half to write? Aww, you even gave me a youtube video to watch (that I'm not going to). I'm not going to respond that in-depth, because I'm doing chemistry homework and I don't like you very much, but I will say that you've misinterpreted most of what I said. I'll cite a couple of the stupidest examples:

"Having priorities backward is worrying more about how a wall looks rather then how well it functions."
-Because you're too stubborn and you're looking—at every sentence in the post, I think—for an argument to win, you must've missed the implication that I think we're wasting our time period by building a wall for no reason whatsoever. If you don't want someone to attack you on a personal level, you should try understanding what they're actually saying before you try to talk shit about it.

"Yes they must roll over and die! Their existence and blight on society is crime enough they are enemy's of the state that must be put down."
-First, it's spelled "enemies", and in my opinion, obviously, they are, because they're not helping anything. Sorry you don't feel that way. Maybe you should respond with more sarcasm next time and it'll really get your point across

My personal favorite was connecting what I said, a quote from Obama (which I completely agree with), and an obscure Karl Marx reference about religion, which I never mentioned in any way:

America's full of a lot of stupid people and they cling on to their small, self-centered worlds with their lives.

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not.

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Religious suffering is at the same time an expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people.

"Peas in a pod."
-I don't know exactly how to respond to this, seeing as the Marx quote has nothing to do with what the other quotes are dealing with. When people say stuff like that it just summarizes everything I hate about politics today. It shows to me you have no critical thinking ability, and all you're able to do is pick apart paragraphs, put the sentences into your own context, and draw ridiculous correlations to try and make me feel bad about what I said. The next point you brought up fuels my reasoning:

"These people are overpopulating and ruing the planet? Man if they'd just quit clinging to their lives all would be well. Take note kids, that this is the same kind of thought process that drives communist revolutions that necessitate large scale bloodshed or starvation of people. Can't have that bizzarre lifestyle of wanting to actually live now can we."
-This one's almost right, but only the first two sentences. The rest of it is just more sarcastic jargon, and expands on your previous assertion of me thinking like Marx
Anyways, I'll explain what I meant to you. Until America stops:
-going to Wal-Mart
-eating chemically-enhanced food
-drinking soda non-stop
-putting religion in politics
-interfering with a woman's right to choose
-driving their cars to locations that are a short 5-20 minute walk
-spending money on weapons and military like we actually need to
-driving their cars so much period
-hiding wisdom from its youth
-buying now and paying later
-letting its rich hoarde money that they don't put into their communities
-using cheap materials to temporarily substitute making it well to begin with
-being socially detatched
-sitting at computers for hours a day
-watching TV for hours a day
-trying to police the world
-etc.
-etc.....
then yes, the people that cause all of these things to occur on a frightengly regular basis are ruining the world, imo, and doing themselves huge disservices

It's funny to me that you think I'm a part of the problem, because I think people with your level of common sense epitomize it

[Martrae]

Holy wall of words.

Cliff notes prz...

[brinstar]

[Martrae]

Thanx!

[Arlos]

Hey! Mine was succinct! For a change..... heh.

-Arlos

[leah]

rofl well played, sir, well played.

[Lueyen]

Drem, don't watch the youtube video, continue to criticize Palin about her errors or lack of knowledge regarding American history, just know that everything you said regarding the matter could also be applied to Biden.

On the wall, I addressed your issue for it and you respond to a single line of text in that regard where yes I was being sarcastic, then bash me for picking things apart?

As far as the peas in a pod comment all three statements demonstrate a general disdain for people, a concept that their lives are somehow unfulfilled and that in search of fulfillment they turn to xyz to comfort them. It is the egotistical notion that you or anyone else can make people "better" or have the answers to help fulfill their lives. Historically the chain of events that follows when this line of thought takes hold is to first to try to force behavior via laws (for peoples own good), and those who reject this eventually have to be eliminated. It may start with eliminating those who society in general shuns for whatever reason, but it ends with eliminating either directly or indirectly anyone who do not toe the line.

[Arlos]

Care to respond to my comment, Lueyen? I realize that it's small and hard to see inbetween the massive diatribes, but... heh.

-Arlos

[Drem]

As far as the peas in a pod comment all three statements demonstrate a general disdain for people, a concept that their lives are somehow unfulfilled and that in search of fulfillment they turn to xyz to comfort them. It is the egotistical notion that you or anyone else can make people "better" or have the answers to help fulfill their lives. Historically the chain of events that follows when this line of thought takes hold is to first to try to force behavior via laws (for peoples own good), and those who reject this eventually have to be eliminated. It may start with eliminating those who society in general shuns for whatever reason, but it ends with eliminating either directly or indirectly anyone who do not toe the line.

No, dumbshit, I'm a 23yo student that just voiced an opinion on the internet. If you read any deeper into it than that I feel sorry for you. Assuming that I hate religion, which on the contrary I think is a beautiful establishment in a lot of ways, is ridiculous. Assuming I think "I can make people 'better'" is similarly ridiculous. I'm an apathetic young adult that hates the mediocrity and intellectual shallowness of the people around me so I whine about it on the internet. Get it? Until you see in the future that Jonathan Turner was murdered in a violent outrage, leading a small sect of wannabe Marxists to their utter defeat, you can clam up about it.

Get it?

Do you get it when I pick apart stuff you say while making fun of you for picking apart stuff I say? It's trying to illustrate, quite directly, my feelings about the typical American thought process. The argument culture. All that ever seems to happen anymore is argument as persuasion, rather than as inquiry, and everything's just a stupid bitching war all the time now. Check out Deborah Tannen's book "The Argument Culture: Moving from Debate to Dialogue". She argues about the war-like atmosphere in our culture that leads everyone to see things completely in terms of polarized sides.... it's really true. Most of our complex public issues are often reduced to just two sides, seen as trying to destroy eachother. Victory over the other side is often more important than learning from collaborative inquiry. Obviously you can't do away with opposite viewpoints, but you can definitely change how you approach them. You trying to relate my little quotes to socialist extremes is a perfect example. And if you think this line of thought is "egotistical" then that's too bad. I never knew aspiring to be compassionate, wise, healthy, and fair was a bad thing. I think you're confusing me wanting people to re-learn how to live their lives in a healthier manner (physically and psychologically) with me wanting to kill everyone I don't like. And again, all that makes me think is that you're out looking for a fight to pick or someone to talk down to when you don't even really understand what they're talking about.

Oh PS, about Palin, I almost forgot. I'm not criticizing her for not knowing American History. She makes herself look bad enough. I criticize her for doing immoral things like trying to ban books from a public library and trying to have police officers fired because they're her sister's ex-husband or something. Fuck that


edit: I'd compare what I'm trying to say with this quote:

'The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves and then we will save our country.' [Abe Lincoln, Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862]

[Eziekial]

"The Road to Surfdom" by Hayek is an excellent book that makes a case to support Lue.

[Drem]

i'll check it out, thanks