Seriously, delay the debate

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Seriously, delay the debate

Postby ClakarEQ » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:09 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26872907/
Anyone feel this is actually justified?

Why don't you change the debate from foreign policy to the economy instead, I bet Obama would be ok with that.

He is stalling and I hate that :(, damn, I even made sure I wasn't reffing Friday :(

EDIT
Ok so who thinks if Obama doesn't want to delay the debate, that McCain will use it against him?
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Re: Seriously, delay the debate

Postby Kramer » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:10 pm

this is a tough one, since they are both government officials, their first priority should be, techinically, there governmental duties...

and it's not like the bailout is a large issue or anything

he might be stalling, i would too if i had to debate obama
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    Re: Seriously, delay the debate

    Postby ClakarEQ » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:12 pm

    I didn't mean to downplay the importance of the bailout, I know it is a big deal but it isn't going anywhere and I don't see how a 1 day gig would impact the issue or McCain / Obama

    I would have rather McCain say, well lets just debate the economy, I hope that is what Obama says to him :)
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    Re: Seriously, delay the debate

    Postby Kramer » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:16 pm

    i see what you mean, but i would also imagine that these guys prepare for these debates for weeks
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Eziekial » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:09 pm

      700 billion dollar bill is moving to pass congress, you know damn well every legislator (except Paul who is giving interviews every 10 minutes) is in backrooms making deals.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Tossica » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:32 pm

      Haha, well, at least George Bush finally admitted we are fucked.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Arlos » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:44 pm

      Well, we can, I suppose, now point to 2 most excellent outcomes of the Bush Presidency.

      1) Absolute proof that the Neocon ethos of unilateral interventionist use of the military, to beat the crap out of anyone who happens to not like us, simply does not even begin to work in the real world. Had Iraq gone smoothly, I guarantee we'd have gone into Iran by now, and probably other places as well.

      2) That the Republican trickle-down economic theory of pandering to the ultra-rich and letting Big Business do whatever it wants, by removing all oversight and regulations, will ultimately result in a near complete economic collapse. Thus proving Roosevelt's wisdom during the Depression at regulating the hell out of the financial sector, etc. After all, the most prosperous time in US in modern history was probably the 50s, and that was with his regulationary restrictions still on wall street, etc.

      So, with any luck, we can now move forward with the Neocons and the Trickle-down morons utterly neutered and hopefully never given any chance at power again.

      Of course, since this is the real world, and most of the voters in this country are idiots who vote based on whether or not the candidate is someone they'd want to have a beer with, not whether or not he'd make a good executive, we'll probably see lots more attempts at both of the above.

      But, at least those of us who pay attention now have impirical proof that those theories of foreign and economic policies are disasters in waiting.

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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Gypsiyee » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:58 am

      This debate delay is purely political, and really shady at that. How it went down: Obama calls and says let's issue a 'joint statement in support of a package to help fix the economy as soon as possible' - McCain calls back 6 hours later and agrees, then minutes later calls and makes his own statement to the press. We're talking a man who's voted once since April, said last week that the fundamentals of the economy are strong in an economy that has been going downhill for quite a period of time, a man who has consistently championed the de-regulation that contributed to this meltdown, and now all the sudden there's urgency for him to return to Washington? What's he going to try to weasel out of the VP debates? If any of you saw Couric interviewing Palin, you know it's going to be an issue for the campaign to allow her to speak unscripted, and they're going to have to try to get out of it somehow.

      Let's get real here: what can McCain and Obama possibly do in the span that it'll take them to debate that's going to have a real impact on what's going on? Is this a sign of what's to come with a McCain presidency? Inability to multi-task? If you can't balance crisis in addition to your current schedule, why should you be president? This is the major crisis of the moment, but throughout presidency you are going to have to balance *multiple* crises. Do we stop one to focus on another? The troops don't get to take a breather today because of the fallout - what about that debacle, or have we forgotten in the midst of the economy problem that we have a whole other issue elsewhere that needs to be talked about?

      The world doesn't stop because you just had an epiphany that the economy is, indeed, in trouble, Mr. McCain.
      "I think you may be confusing government running amok with government doing stuff you don't like. See, you're in the minority now. It's supposed to taste like a shit taco." - Jon Stewart
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Martrae » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:56 am

      You guys hearing the rumors about Biden? Supposedly, he's stepping down the day after the debate with Palin citing health reasons if he loses and staying in if he wins. If he steps down there's a strong possibility Hillary will be pulled in as the VP choice.

      It all seems a bit shady to me to be pulling this sort of thing this close to election. It's almost like a shell game....which cup is the VP under!
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby brinstar » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:08 am

      that's bad, i like biden
      compost the rich
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Eziekial » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:29 am

      Rarely does one "win" a debate. You will get FauxNews claiming Palin and McCain looked presidential and composed while MSNBCommie claiming Obama and Biden have a command of the issues blah.blah.blah. The Hillary rumor is bullshit.

      As for the debate over the debate. I think Obama is handling the play a lot better. McCain should not have be the first to call for a delay as it showed weakness.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Tossica » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:37 am

      Bullshit. The repubs have been soundly whipped in the debates for as long as I can remember. Too bad the "winner" of the debate isn't always the next president.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Nusk » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:47 am

      i agree with obama, a president needs to be able to multi task


      have the debate
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Reynaldo » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:10 am

      Martrae wrote:You guys hearing the rumors about Biden? Supposedly, he's stepping down the day after the debate with Palin citing health reasons if he loses and staying in if he wins. If he steps down there's a strong possibility Hillary will be pulled in as the VP choice.

      It all seems a bit shady to me to be pulling this sort of thing this close to election. It's almost like a shell game....which cup is the VP under!



      Heard this as well to reel back in the female voters. While it would be a guaranteed win for Obama if this happens, I just can't see Hillary being ok with playing second fiddle.

      Winning > Getting along though, so wouldn't be surprised.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby leah » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:20 am

      lolz
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Arlos » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:53 am

      The TRULY funny thing about McCain's action is this: He isn't even ON any of the relevant committees. Right now, NO ONE who isn't on the committees handling this is doing ANY of the negotiations or any of the hammering out details. That's how things work. That much ballyhooed meeting with Bush, Obama, McCain and the congressional leadership is nothing but a photo op, designed by Bush to make McCain look more "Presidential". All it REALLY will do is delay actually completing the legislation, as it will slow way down as important people from those committees will be with Bush instead of working on it.

      So yeah, he's "racing back to Washington" to do what, exactly? Vote on it in the open session when it will already have way more than enough votes needed to pass it? He already admitted a long time ago that he sucks on economic issues, so even if he WAS on one of the relevant committees, what actual use would he be in crafting an intricate economic bill?

      Then there's the bait & switch with Letterman, and his sudden ducking out on the debate... It's hysterical, honestly. The amusing thing is that based on statements from people involved, the bill is nearly done right now, and we may see it pass as early as today. One thing I have heard is being worked on is making sure there is sufficient votes from both parties involved in this that neither one can turn around and use "OMG THEY FOISTED THIS BILL ON US!" or any such thing as an issue against the other during the election. Honestly, I think we'll see it pass no later than late this evening, as the Democrats make sure to get it done in time to remove any leg McCain has to stand on in his attempt to weasel out of the debate on Friday.

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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Martrae » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:19 am

      They sign this bill and it's a bad bad day for the country.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Arlos » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:30 am

      Oh, I don't think the original Bush bill has any chance of getting signed.

      Pretty sure that the bill that WILL get signed is going to contain things like: equity stake in the companies that participate, limits to CEO compensation for companies that participate, some sort of plan to help homeowners avoid foreclosure in the first place, and possibly stuff like expanded unemployment benefits, etc.

      The equity stake and the preventing of foreclosure means that the securities bundles that government buys might actually have the chance to be worth something in the future, and can be re-sold later at a profit once things stabilize. There's a very real chance that if they do this right, while the INITIAL cost will be huge, in the long run, it might actually pay for itself in a lot of ways. We'll see, I suppose....

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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Martrae » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:14 am

      A) they CEOs ran the companies into the ground...WTF do they even deserve compensation? Everything they owned should be seized and made to cover some of this.

      B) the only way those shares will be worth anything is if they artificially hold housing prices at or above the current levels. That will only prolong whatever recession we're going into. Housing prices were too high to begin with, which is why all those mortgage schemes were developed and why we are in such trouble right now.

      C) they are throwing 700 billion into a black hole when that money COULD be used to instead shore up the dollar, encourage small businesses or even be used for rebuilding some crumbling bridges. All of which are better uses for than bailing out some companies that 10 years from now will be back to doing the EXACT same thing they did before because they can count on 'daddy' bailing them out if they fuck up again.
      Inside each person lives two wolves. One is loyal, kind, respectful, humble and open to the mystery of life. The other is greedy, jealous, hateful, afraid and blind to the wonders of life. They are in battle for your spirit. The one who wins is the one you feed.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Arlos » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:53 am

      I'm not arguing with you on A in the least. I would LOVE to see all executives of all the firms forced to pay back all bonuses received over the last 5 years, and use that money to help fund the bailout. Whether that would be legal and/or constitutional on the other hand, I somewhat doubt.

      B I disagree with. EVENTUALLY housing prices WILL go back up again. Historically, that's an inevitability. Also, I don't think it's an inevitability that someone will automatically walk away from a mortgage simply because the mortgage value outstrips the current sell value of the home. People don't like moving, they may love the house they got, they don't want the credit hit, etc. etc. etc. So, if the government can help make sure that people in these situations can keep up with the mortgage and NOT get foreclosed on, it is inevitable that the securities WILL be worth something. It may take 10 years, it may take more, but hell, it's the government, if it anyone can wait indefinitely for things to pay off, it's them.

      C) I would love to see some of the money spent on other things as well. Hell, for 1/10 that amount they could fund universal health care for the entire country, I do believe. The problem is, from all I've read, they HAVE to do something, or we're going to see more companies collapse. Since things are so interconnected, once that starts happening, it's an accelerating process, and will eventually result in even huge and at least semi-healthy institutions like Citi group and Bank of America getting pulled under. Not to mention, the longer this goes on, the tighter credit restrictions get, which means ordinary businesses can go under as they are unable to get necessary funding.

      So, unfortunately SOMETHING needs to be done to stabilize things, and we've already seen that smaller "fixes" acting piecemeal don't do it. Thus, the effort to try and fix the whole thing at once by throwing so much money at it. So, since we pretty much HAVE to do it, I'd like to see new regulations so that it NEVER happens again, and that the middle class get relief as well, not just wall street firms.

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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Martrae » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:29 pm

      Dear Friends:

      The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.

      We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.

      Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.

      Still, at least a few observations are necessary.

      The president assures us that his administration "is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets." Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?

      We are told that "low interest rates" led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.

      Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or "wildcat capitalism" (as if we actually have a pure free market!).

      Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: "Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk."

      Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the "many" who "believed they were guaranteed by the federal government" were in fact correct?

      Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary "the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet." Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.

      It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.

      The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.

      F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:

      Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.

      To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.

      The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.

      The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question?

      Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a "rescue plan"? I guess "bailout" wasn't sitting too well with the American people.

      The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.

      I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.

      H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.

      In liberty,



      Ron Paul





      God, I still love this man.....
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby leah » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:10 pm

      interesting thing on what $700 billion amounts to:
      http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features/li ... otogallery

      some are kind of thought-provoking, like buyin 480+ pounds of rice for every person in africa.
      lolz
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Haylo » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:40 pm

      I admit that economics is not something I am well read on, so I have a couple of questions. Firstly, I agree with Mart's point A. I think that the CEOs/Owners of these companies should be treated like they went bankrupt in their personal lives, take it all to pay for as much as you can. My second question is this, regarding the current mortgages etc. would it be possible for them to reevaluate this homes that are effected and lower the amount people have to pay back to what the current value of the house is? I don't know what that would entail, but is that something that could happen? So like if they signed the plan into action tomorrow, could they say all right everyone that has an outstanding loan that was purchased under x and x circumstances, your loan can not be more than the current value of your house. Wouldn't that help or is that something that can not be done.
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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Arlos » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:52 pm

      To answer the 2nd half of your question, from what I've read:

      Right now, judges have the power to re-value loans that people have on SECOND homes. So, they could do exactly that, reset the value of the loan to match the current assessed property value, but ONLY if it's someone's 2nd house.

      So, not exactly insanely useful at this point to fix what's going on.

      Now, one of the things the Democrats want to put INTO the bailout package is to give judges the authority to do the same exact thing on PRIMARY homes, ie if you have only one house, the judge WOULD be able to adjust the value of the loan. Not surprisingly, this is meeting with immense pushback and lobbying efforts against it primarily by the lending industry, but there were other groups as well. Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ass WHAT the lending industry wants, they got us into this, so they can take it up the rear themselves when we fix it. But, that's just me.

      Anyway, while the suggestion of letting judges re-assess loan values, and potentially letting more people avoid foreclosure and stay in their homes sounds like a good idea, it is not at present legal. Well, unless you're rich and want it done on your summer house in the Hamptons, of course...

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      Re: Seriously, delay the debate

      Postby Diekan » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:45 pm

      The debates are basically just a lot of rhetorical bullshit anyway. It’s a dog and pony show to see who looks and sounds the most presidential – IMO.

      Voting record, voting record, voting record… this is the best way to determine which candidate really and truly fits YOUR belief system.

      Obama sounds horrible without a teleprompter telling him what to say. When he’s asked a question out of the blue he stumbles and dances around the answer. McCain is plain BORING and makes me want to take a nap after listening to him.

      We’re screwed with either of these two in the White House. Add to that the do nothing Congress we’ve had for what… the past two years… and we’re double screwed.

      We’re in a war we had no business starting in the first place – because one boneheaded president just had to revenge his daddy – costing us TRILLIONS of dollars. And now we’re stuck until the job is complete.

      Our jobs are gone with little chance of coming back.

      The government has grown many times larger than what it should be.

      Taxes are out of control.

      Government spending is out of control.

      Our Civil Liberties have been eaten away with laws (that would make Hitler proud) to /cough "protect us" from the boogie man.

      Wall Street is full of more corruption than the back room of an Italian owned New York Strip Club.

      Our economy is in complete shambles to the point it makes the S&L scandals of the 80s look like a cake walk.

      And… the best we can do for the future of our county is an empty suit, teleprompter junkie and a 72 old career politician who is about as inspiring as a drunken birthday clown. At least Palin gives us something to spank it too while we wait for the complete collapse of our country.

      We're F.U.C.K.E.D
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