Speaking of annoying conservatives...

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Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Arlos » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:52 am

Toss's post reminded me of this article I read recently from Fareed Zakaria in Time Magazine. Really well done, I thought. Just read it for yourself and see:

"Conservatism is true." That's what George Will told me when I interviewed him as an eager student many years ago. His formulation might have been a touch arrogant, but Will's basic point was intelligent. Conservatism, he explained, was rooted in reality. Unlike the abstract theories of Marxism and socialism, it started not from an imagined society but from the world as it actually exists. From Aristotle to Edmund Burke, the greatest conservative thinkers have said that to change societies, one must understand them, accept them as they are and help them evolve.

Watching this election campaign, one wonders what has happened to that tradition. Conservatives now espouse ideas drawn from abstract principles with little regard to the realities of America's present or past. This is a tragedy, because conservatism has an important role to play in modernizing the U.S.

Consider the debates over the economy. The Republican prescription is to cut taxes and slash government spending — then things will bounce back. Now, I would like to see lower rates in the context of tax simplification and reform, but what is the evidence that tax cuts are the best path to revive the U.S. economy? Taxes — federal and state combined — as a percentage of GDP are at their lowest level since 1950. The U.S. is among the lowest taxed of the big industrial economies. So the case that America is grinding to a halt because of high taxation is not based on facts but is simply a theoretical assertion. The rich countries that are in the best shape right now, with strong growth and low unemployment, are ones like Germany and Denmark, neither one characterized by low taxes.

Many Republican businessmen have told me that the Obama Administration is the most hostile to business in 50 years. Really? More than that of Richard Nixon, who presided over tax rates that reached 70%, regulations that spanned whole industries, and who actually instituted price and wage controls?

In fact, right now any discussion of government involvement in the economy — even to build vital infrastructure — is impossible because it is a cardinal tenet of the new conservatism that such involvement is always and forever bad. Meanwhile, across the globe, the world's fastest-growing economy, China, has managed to use government involvement to create growth and jobs for three decades. From Singapore to South Korea to Germany to Canada, evidence abounds that some strategic actions by the government can act as catalysts for free-market growth.

Of course, American history suggests that as well. In the 1950s, '60s and '70s, the U.S. government made massive investments in science and technology, in state universities and in infant industries. It built infrastructure that was the envy of the rest of the world. Those investments triggered two generations of economic growth and put the U.S. on top of the world of technology and innovation.

But that history has been forgotten. When considering health care, for example, Republicans confidently assert that their ideas will lower costs, when we simply do not have much evidence for this. What we do know is that of the world's richest countries, the U.S. has by far the greatest involvement of free markets and the private sector in health care. It also consumes the largest share of GDP, with no significant gains in health on any measurable outcome. We need more market mechanisms to cut medical costs, but Republicans don't bother to study existing health care systems anywhere else in the world. They resemble the old Marxists, who refused to look around at actual experience. "I know it works in practice," the old saw goes, "but does it work in theory?"

Conservatives used to be the ones with heads firmly based in reality. Their reforms were powerful because they used the market, streamlined government and empowered individuals. Their effects were large-scale and important: think of the reform of the tax code in the 1980s, for example, which was spearheaded by conservatives. Today conservatives shy away from the sensible ideas of the Bowles-Simpson commission on deficit reduction because those ideas are too deeply rooted in, well, reality. Does anyone think we are really going to get federal spending to the level it was at under Calvin Coolidge, as Paul Ryan's plan assumes? Does anyone think we will deport 11 million people?

We need conservative ideas to modernize the U.S. economy and reform American government. But what we have instead are policies that don't reform but just cut and starve government — a strategy that pays little attention to history or best practices from around the world and is based instead on a theory. It turns out that conservatives are the woolly-headed professors after all.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... z1Qplgf7oc


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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Markarado » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:15 am

He is correct that Denmark and Germany are doing well, but this is a very bad example. Most of Western Europe is far worse off than the USA is now, and just about all of their taxes are much higher than the USA. If you look at the majority of industrialized nations, currently the general rule of thumb is high taxes equals a shit economy.

It may not be a bad idea for the gov to get involved in massive projects to provide jobs as China, Singapore, and other nations in Asia do. I would like to point out that almost all countries in Asia have much lower taxes than western nations do. Asia has bounced back from the economic crisis very quickly, and this part of the world is booming once again. Why? Low taxes, cheap labor, and stable governments create a healthy business climate. I will say that in most cases Asians are paid far less than their western counter-parts, but these salaries/wages are slowly increasing. If the work forces were unionized it would create a less business friendly environment and they would likely not have the jobs in the first place.

The writer makes a few good points, but the comparisons he make are contradictory. He looks at Germany and Denmark with high taxes yet experiencing a good economy, and then he looks at Asian countries with low taxes but healthy business environments. He does not bring up these points though. The writer is only bringing up the points that are anti-conservatism and ignoring the 'reality.'

You want to fix America? Cut the social programs. Teach people that they MUST fend for themselves and cannot rely on the government. It won't be easy. Many will suffer for some time. In the long run we will be able to rebuild our nations economy, become more business friendly, and have a nation of less lazy people ready to join the workforce.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Menelvir » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:56 am

The Germany and Denmark examples were used to demonstrate that countries with currently high tax rates can also be experiencing strong growth and low unemployment.

The Asian countries examples were used to show that "some strategic actions by the government can act as catalysts for free-market growth."

These observations aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't think there's any single fix to the problem, and I also think it'll get worse sooner than it gets better.

I think the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest will continue to widen, and the middle class will continue to shrink until the occurence of a catalytic event that causes societal implosion, probably something along the lines of lack or extreme shortage of a critical resource. At that point, many standards of living will drop dramatically, and there'll probably be some interesting social interaction.

But this is an inevitability when you make the well-being of your society dependent on economic growth that is driven by debt-laden, conspicuous consumption practices where resources are finite.

I agree that the article is well-written - I enjoy reading his articles.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:06 am

Conservatism is flawed, but it still makes more sense than liberalism, socialism and communism. What really boggles my mind is why the socio-economic lower class, many middle class, and many blue-collar workers, support the democratic party. They think that is their party and the party that will take care of them. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was discussing politics with a co-worker recently, and I asked him why he supports the democratic party. His response was "Because I can't afford NOT to." I told him that the democrats are the party who tax us all more and the end result is that our net incomes are reduced. I then asked him, "So how has the democratic party really helped you?" He shrugged and couldn't answer. Typical brainwashed-or-blindly-raised-in-a-democratic-household type person.

The left is always so short-sighted, especially in regards to taxation. Lefties are always crying about republicans wanting to give tax cuts to corporations and small businesses alike. This narrow-mindedness is so frustrating to listen to because it's so illogical. The more you tax a company, the harder you make it for them to be profitable, and eventually they stop hiring new people, they start lay people off, move their company out-of-state, or eventually close their doors because of democratic policy. California is a prime example of this. Many businesses have had to move out of state, usually to Nevada, Arizona and Texas. Texas is showing a massive recent growing influx of companies relocating there from California.

Barry's "comprehensive medical reform act" is the biggest joke and tragedy of the all time presidential blunders. Never before has there been a bigger invasion against our personal liberties and freedoms. Liberals are always belly-aching about their constitutional rights not being stepped on or taken away, yet here's their boy in the white house FORCING everybody to purchase medical insurance. What kind of liberty is that? In addition, it also opens the door to more corruption, and sick seniors are going to lose their medical treatments.

Democrats are hypocrits of the highest order. I could go on and on about the gun-rights issue and abortion issues, but we all know how those discussions end up...
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Tossica » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:24 pm

Shut up.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby brinstar » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:56 pm

lol he trollin' like a boss
compost the rich
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Markarado » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:35 pm

You two are the ones trolling. He actually had imput
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Drem » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:50 am

how is conversative paranoia input
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Markarado » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:17 am

You may label it what you want, but it's still imput.... or in your fucked up world is that somehow output?
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Drem » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:58 am

the fuck are you even talking about

and why are you spelling it iMput over and over
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Markarado » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:30 pm

Input... just caught that =)
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby brinstar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:39 pm

don't bother drem

mindia spews troll garbage, mark echoes it from MALAYSIA, nothing changes
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby 10sun » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:05 pm

Thread title delivers.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby brinstar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:53 pm

10sun wrote:Thread title delivers.


snaaaap
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Jeddas » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:21 pm

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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Arlos » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:21 am

That is a good one. I liked that one too.

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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Gypsiyee » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:56 pm

I told him that the democrats are the party who tax us all more and the end result is that our net incomes are reduced.


er.. pretty much the opposite of reality, but okay.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:08 am

brinstar wrote:don't bother drem

mindia spews troll garbage, mark echoes it from MALAYSIA, nothing changes


What I wrote was the truth. There was no trolling involved either. Liberalism truly is a severe mental disorder... there's so many examples of it. :(
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Evermore » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:32 pm

Narrock wrote:Conservatism is flawed, but it still makes more sense than liberalism, socialism and communism. What really boggles my mind is why the socio-economic lower class, many middle class, and many blue-collar workers, support the democratic party. They think that is their party and the party that will take care of them. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was discussing politics with a co-worker recently, and I asked him why he supports the democratic party. His response was "Because I can't afford NOT to." I told him that the democrats are the party who tax us all more and the end result is that our net incomes are reduced. I then asked him, "So how has the democratic party really helped you?" He shrugged and couldn't answer. Typical brainwashed-or-blindly-raised-in-a-democratic-household type person.

The left is always so short-sighted, especially in regards to taxation. Lefties are always crying about republicans wanting to give tax cuts to corporations and small businesses alike. This narrow-mindedness is so frustrating to listen to because it's so illogical. The more you tax a company, the harder you make it for them to be profitable, and eventually they stop hiring new people, they start lay people off, move their company out-of-state, or eventually close their doors because of democratic policy. California is a prime example of this. Many businesses have had to move out of state, usually to Nevada, Arizona and Texas. Texas is showing a massive recent growing influx of companies relocating there from California.

Barry's "comprehensive medical reform act" is the biggest joke and tragedy of the all time presidential blunders. Never before has there been a bigger invasion against our personal liberties and freedoms. Liberals are always belly-aching about their constitutional rights not being stepped on or taken away, yet here's their boy in the white house FORCING everybody to purchase medical insurance. What kind of liberty is that? In addition, it also opens the door to more corruption, and sick seniors are going to lose their medical treatments.

Democrats are hypocrits of the highest order. I could go on and on about the gun-rights issue and abortion issues, but we all know how those discussions end up...



still totally clueless i see.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby 10sun » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:48 pm

Narrock wrote:
brinstar wrote:don't bother drem

mindia spews troll garbage, mark echoes it from MALAYSIA, nothing changes


What I wrote was the truth. There was no trolling involved either. Liberalism truly is a severe mental disorder... there's so many examples of it. :(


What is your excuse?
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Menelvir » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Narrock wrote:Liberalism truly is a severe mental disorder... there's so many examples of it. :(


Characterizing an opposing point of view in pejorative terms (mental disorder, insane, stupid, etc.) is ad hominem, and if that's not meant to provoke a combative response, rather than a reasoned one, then you should probably re-evaluate your method of argument.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Drem » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:36 pm

hahahahahah that applies to so many people
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Jeddas » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:02 pm

Markarado wrote:You want to fix America? Cut the social programs. Teach people that they MUST fend for themselves and cannot rely on the government. It won't be easy. Many will suffer for some time. In the long run we will be able to rebuild our nations economy, become more business friendly, and have a nation of less lazy people ready to join the workforce.


I don't understand. Why cut social programs when we could cut the defense budget? Instead, the secret to long term growth is taking a dump on the poor by preventing them from getting educations or eating properly?
Cut the defense budget in half or less. Why aren't republicans gung-ho on this, especially since billions of taxpayer money in the defense budget is going to R&D -- basically to fund research in the public sector.

The other thing I don't quite understand is the disposition that we shouldn't rely on the government. The American government favors policies that directly creates incredible inequalities. These inequalities
aren't emerging because people aren't working hard enough. Nor are they emerging because the middle class are paying an extra $200 a year so the widow next door doesn't starve to death. They're emerging
because while work weeks have gotten longer and productivity increased by a magnitude, middle class wages have stagnated for four decades while the wealthy 1% grew substantially. If we're going to consent to a government
that allows for such gross inequalities, we ought to at least create a safety net for those on the short end of the deal.

But I doubt this sentiment will dissolve.. in the words of John Milton, "they who have put our the peoples eyes reproach them of their blindness."
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Jeddas » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:06 pm

Oh, speaking of:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/07/08/ha ... al-pr.html

Probably related to the popularity of the sentiment -- people don't have any reality connected to their rhetoric.
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Re: Speaking of annoying conservatives...

Postby Narrock » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:15 pm

Menelvir wrote:
Narrock wrote:Liberalism truly is a severe mental disorder... there's so many examples of it. :(


Characterizing an opposing point of view in pejorative terms (mental disorder, insane, stupid, etc.) is ad hominem, and if that's not meant to provoke a combative response, rather than a reasoned one, then you should probably re-evaluate your method of argument.


I only oppose viewpoints that display a clear example of obvious mental disorder by the (usually a left wing political figurehead retard) architect who engineered said viewpoint... Why? Because the painful tunnel-vision and short-sightedness that ends up negatively affecting the majority only to give a perceived uplift to a minority of the populous. Want examples? Okay, here you go.

1. Taking "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance.
2. Taking "In God we trust" off our currency.
3. Teaching children that "being gay is ok, and that it's a viable option."
4. Taxing small business owners to death WHO EMPLOY A LOT OF YOU RETARDS.
5. Removing the TEN COMMANDMENTS plaques from Federal Courthouses.
6. Granting amnesty and driver's licenses to ILLEGAL immigrants.
7. Making dangerous stepping-stone hallucinogenic drugs like marijuana legal. W T F ?????????????????????????????
8. Legalizing gay marriage. What's next? Allowing cats and dogs to get married? again... W T F ?????
9. Giving free healthcare and education to illegal immigrants... O M F G
10. Making hard-working citizens pay for health care that has raised costs built-in to subsidize bums.
11. Taking away our gun rights.

That's just a semi-list of clear-cut examples of "LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER." No trolling, no ad hominem, no pejorative terms. There's just some things/laws that were perfect before and what makes America a great place to live. Liberals are FUCKING IT ALL UP. IF you don't like America the way it was (and should be) then :gtfo2:

I puke and spit in liberals' general direction. :nuts: :rolleyes: :puke: :gaymeter:
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