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[Diekan]

Over the past 10 years or so, the price of gas has risen from about 1 dollar per gallon to over 3 dollars per gallon – that’s a 300% increase.

Yet, the value of oil has only risen roughly by 150%, again over the past ten years.

As for your numbers – do the math.

Percentage wise…

Year 2000 = Domestic oil production (5822) + Imported oil (11459) = 17281 TOTAL.
Year 2006 = Domestic oil production (5187) + Imported oil (13714) = 18892 TOTAL.

[((18892 – 17281) / 18892) * 100] / 6 = 1.4%

So, by YOUR numbers you can see that oil production has only increased a little over 1% per year over the past six years.

In the year 2000 the total sale of gasoline – all grades - (nationwide) was 370,000 gpd (I assume “gpd” refers to gallons per day). Now, in 2006 the total sale of all grades of gasoline was about 400,000 gpd.

Do the math here as well…

[((400,000 – 370,000) / 400,000) * 100] / 6 = 1.3%

That means over the past six years, the demand for gasoline has only increased about 1.3% per year.

So, let me break this down…

Over the past ten years total we have seen that the demand for gas has only increased by about 1.3% per year. We have seen that the amount of oil produced (both domestic and imported) has increased by about 1.4%. Now, over that same period of time – we have seen that the price of crude has risen by about 150% yet over all the price of gas has risen over 300%.

I’ll break it down even further to drive the point home:

Over the past 10 years.

The demand for gasoline: Increased by 1.3%
Oil production (total): Increased by 1.4%
Price of Crude: Increased by 150%
Price of gas per gallon: Increased by 300%

You don’t smell fraud here? I’m not saying YOU don’t – the question is rhetorical.
As for the price fluctuations, well I don’t believe for a second that politics don’t play a role. Considering the Bush family ties to the Saudis, you don’t find it a bit curious that oil prices dropped before the election, then quickly went right back up after the elections?

Look, I don’t have a problem with a company making a profit. I don’t have a problem with a company looking out for its interest – within reason.

What I DO have a problem with is when these companies are allowed run amuck without any regulation whatsoever and are free to price gouge. What I DO have a problem with is when the activities of these companies causes direct harm to the health of the planet and are not held accountable for said actions. Certainly, when the technologies to correct the problem are both affordable and available to these companies – who simply refuse to implement them for no other reason than simple greed.

Why do I hate corporations so much? Because they are truly the most anti-American and evil entities in this country. I am not a big fan of having a huge, bloated federal government, but there are cases in which the government must step in take action. Because corporations, or any business for that matter WILL take any opportunity they can to fuck someone over for a dollar. Look at Florida every time a hurricane comes through and the price of plywood rockets, unnecessarily. Companies are parasites who will stoop to taking advantage of death and destruction to make a profit. THAT is why I detest American companies so much.

But, this topic isn’t about that. This topic is about the conditions of our planet’s health and the unwillingness of greedy American companies to take the action necessary to correct the problem. Not because they can’t, nor because they’re unable – but simply because it might jeopardize their potential to rake in a record profit quarter.

We’re not asking that they shut their doors. We’re not asking that government step in and punish them. We’re simply asking that the government force them to clean up the mess they are creating before it is too late.

The amount of money it would take the power industry to install scrubbers in their coal plants is minuscule in the shadow of their revenue and profits. A fucking scrubber costs around 60 million. I guarantee you that the annual bonus for American Electric’s CEO alone is several MILLION dollars and that’s not adding the bonuses of the other executives, not to mention the employees. I guarantee you that the collective annual bonuses of ALL of American Electric’s employees would be more than enough to pay for scrubbers for 33% of the coal plants. But, if you ask them – putting scrubbers in will put them financial dire straights.

These companies do not care about the future of this planet. These companies do not care about your health and well-being. These companies do not care about the financial hardships they impose on your by having to choose between filling up the tank or buying groceries. They care about profit and nothing else. Their vision extends out to the end of the next fiscal quarter and no further.
They MUST be regulated. They MUST be forced to act. They will not do it on their own.

I’ve already given you an example of what happens without regulation. If the power industry, the insurance industry, hell take your pick, was not regulated you’d be paying a hundred times more that what you are now for their services. The oil industry is no different. We’re already paying 150% more than what we should for gas. And, to boot we’re seeing our planet being slowly killed for their financial gain.

So, to you republican wanna bes, please pull your heads out of your asses and take a hard look around.

Oh and by the way, one reason the GOP does not want to “do” anything about gas prices is because they too profit from it.

I know here in Georgia the tax on a gallon of gas is 7.5 cents per gallon plus 4% sales tax. So, the higher the cost of gas, the larger that 4% is to them. Not a lot of motivation to put the oil companies in their place, now is it?

[Lueyen]

Hey, you are wrong.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_crude.html

Crude oil prices are down from last year.

If only it were that simple to compare current pricing to a previous year. What you are missing is that above normal demands since the first of the year have caused a drop in reserve levels for both refined fuel and crude well below normal levels. The gasoline price you pay at the pump today doesn't always (in fact usually doesn't) directly reflect the crude price of today. Then there are of course other factors such as the strength of the dollar on the world market and inflation, but what you've seen since the first of the year is due to demands on reserves more than anything else. Unfortunately the rest of the year isn't looking to good, we'll likely see a short term drop in pump prices, but going into summer demand will spike and there will be the additional stress on the market as it starts to feel the effects of decreased OPEC production that was announced the end of last year.

[Harrison]

Let's not forget China's role in influencing oil prices with their large increase in demand for gasoline over the past decade.

The problem with pulling numbers and picking and choosing how to manipulate them is that you can pull what Diekan just did and falsely validate something.(intentionally or otherwise)

Numbers don't lie, the person who calculates them however...

[Lyion]

Here's a simplified breakdown of costs. You are way off on the taxes, Diek. The problem this year has been a shortage in refining, too, which has raised that some. Remember, we haven't had a new refinery in 30+ years due to eco legislation.

Also, remember which groups want gas at 5 dollars a gallon. It's not the oil companies, since they make a bit more cash but lose in the long run.

[Diekan]

Eh, according the Georgia Department of Revenue

http://www.etax.dor.ga.gov/motorfuel/Bu ... to6-07.pdf

4% sales on top of 7.5 cents per gallon is what we're paying.

[Lyion]

Yeah, but that's just your at the pump additional double taxation. This is the actual tax on the gas before it gets to your local Citgo in your state.

[10sun]

Hey, you are wrong.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_crude.html

Crude oil prices are down from last year.

If only it were that simple to compare current pricing to a previous year. What you are missing is that above normal demands since the first of the year have caused a drop in reserve levels for both refined fuel and crude well below normal levels. The gasoline price you pay at the pump today doesn't always (in fact usually doesn't) directly reflect the crude price of today. Then there are of course other factors such as the strength of the dollar on the world market and inflation, but what you've seen since the first of the year is due to demands on reserves more than anything else. Unfortunately the rest of the year isn't looking to good, we'll likely see a short term drop in pump prices, but going into summer demand will spike and there will be the additional stress on the market as it starts to feel the effects of decreased OPEC production that was announced the end of last year.

No. The price of crude is directly correlated. You said there was an increase in the price of crude oil since last year and that was a primary causation of the increased fuel prices. That is plain and simple false. Prices of crude have been consistently low compared to last summer's prices.

Last September I was paying roughly $2.10 a gallon for standard unleaded gasoline and that was coming off the high water mark for crude oil prices. That in itself falsifies your statement as well.

The fact that the dollar may or may not be stronger on the market these days plays no bearing into the argument at all because we are comparing US dollars consistently.

The simple fact of the matter is, the refining process has become more and more costly as the New Source Regulations have essentially put America on a choke lead. The more we want, the more it will strangle us.

We have the opportunity to do several things.

A) Review/Revamp New Source Regulations
B) Build refineries in countries where eco-legistlation is not in place and import.
C) Carpool &/or use public transportation more often.
D) Develop viable alternate means of energy/transport.
E) Cry in our respective corners & blame the dirty Arabs.

-Adam

[Eziekial]

Damn those dirty arabs.

[Arlos]

What about option F) Build refinery that complies with modern environmental regulations?

-Arlos

[Eziekial]

that just it arlos. "modern environmental regulations" make it impossible to actually build a refinery. in fact, SHELL recently SOLD some refineries in California because they see more laws coming that will make it impossible to keep them running for much longer. Tesoro bought a few in the hopes they can stall the political process long enough to turn a nice profit and then bail.

[Tossica]

Impossible or might it cut their billions of dollars in profits down to maybe just a few hundred million?

[Eziekial]

that's a tough question. I mean if you had a business, would you willingly spend 10 billion now on a project that could only make 9 billion in it's 30 year lifetime? And that's if all goes well? Seriously, would mom and dad approve of you losing 10% of your family's wealth because you've got plenty to lose anyway?

[Diekan]

Impossible or might it cut their billions of dollars in profits down to maybe just a few hundred million?

B.I.N.G.O... and BINGO was his nameo

[Tossica]

If I thought my families company might be directly contributing to the demise of our planet, I'd certainly consider it.

I'm not a greedy fucker though so that's just me.

[Diekan]

that's a tough question. I mean if you had a business, would you willingly spend 10 billion now on a project that could only make 9 billion in it's 30 year lifetime? And that's if all goes well? Seriously, would mom and dad approve of you losing 10% of your family's wealth because you've got plenty to lose anyway?

The problem is that they aren't willing to make ANY concessions. None. Notta.

The only improvements they make are those that are forced upon them by legislation.

If they actually made a concerted effort to sit down with greens and envrionmental friendly legislators and talked... they might find things could be sorted out. But, their constant thumbing their nose at anything remotely "green" and continuous onslaught of negative attacks on global warming - doesn't make them the most sympathetic of entities.

[Diekan]

I suggest to you that Exxon Mobile is by far the largest sleeper cell in the United States. Far more dangerous to the future of this country than any terrorist group could ever hope to be.

They buy and sell politicians. They gum up the works of OUR political machine for the interest of their profit making. So, rather than doing what’s best for the people of this nation, the bought and paid for politicians do what’s best for the companies.

They’ve launched a direct attack on the planet with absolutely no regard for the ramifications of their actions. Putting the lives everyone on the planet, essentially, at risk.

They’ve sold our jobs to the lowest bidder, when they were and are more than able to keep Americans on the payroll. Destroying thousands of American lives and families.

They’ve put thousands of families in financial duress with their artificially inflated prices. Because, hey, why the fuck should the CEO of Exxon care if you have to buy half the amount of groceries needed to feed your kids… he’s got a 10 million dollar bonus to earn!

They have absolutely no patriotic ties to this country, no allegiance whatsoever. If you don’t think they’d sell this country out for a profit than you’re really and truly blind.

Terrorists may cause fear, they may attack us again, they may even (hopefully not) kill more Americans. But, what they’ll never be able to do, which America’s large corporations can are already doing – is destroy this country in its entirety.

All in the name of profit.

[Lyion]

We need Parv here to really lay things out. Oil companies are greedy, and refining is a problem, but the bigger problem is the absolute bullshit way oil speculation has been done over the last 10 years. The oil cartels have taken over the speculating portion and now the prices are artificially raised and not lowered due to events that in all reality should have no impact on prices. I think the catalyst to this was in 98 when oil hit 10 dollars per barrel. Suddenly, the method for speculation changed, probably due to OPEC and others actually losing money on their oil.

This inflated price is why we see gargantuan profits. The flat cost to take a barrel of oil out of the ground is around 15-20 dollars for Exxon and others. If supply is static and demand is static, but your base profits triple because King Fahd in Saudi sneezes and speculation decides oil is in danger and raises prices, you're going to make a fuckton of benjamins.

Unfortunately, since oil is an international entity and we have no real say in the price, all we can do is suck it up and try to find a better alternative.. Like a few hundred nuclear reactors and moving all our transportation off petrol to electric.

[Diekan]

A better alternative is the way to go, but until companies like Exxon are beaten down their lobbyists will never allow Congress to seriously enable the creation or implementation of said alternatives.

My questions to all of you are simply:

Where do we draw the line? How many trillions of dollars is a company, or anyone for that matter entitled to? How much damage are they allowed to cause to our country in the name of capitalism?

When are we allowed to say enough is enough?

[Lyion]

Diekan, in regards to oil, these things go in cycles. Exxon absolutely lost their ass in the 80s when oil was dirt cheap. I'd bet when we finally move off gas turbine engines, oil again will be cheap and the energy companies will be floundering as they were before.

In regards to where do we draw the line, as long as there are fair regulations, then government shouldn't be looking at any line. We have ridiculous eco conservation laws in place, already, and people are getting tired of the gas price silliness.

Unfortunately, unless you want to pull a Hugo Chavez and take over all the oil companies and promote a socialist/dictator agenda there isn't much we can do except quit using gasoline.

[Diekan]

And, for the record (just to clear it up), I do favor capitalism. What I do not favor is unchecked capitalism.

Capitalism is a good thing as it breeds competition, which in turn breeds innovation and invention.

If T-Mobile (for example) was the “Microsoft” of the cell phone industry, do you think mobile phones would now be one function away from hunting John Conner (thanks Daily Show)? Hell no… they’d still be the size of toasters.

Anyone who works in the IT industry can attest to the pure shit that Windows really is. They simply take the kernal of an older version, beef it up, tweek it, add a bunch of bullshit you’ll never use, or even want, print it on a 0.20 cent disk and sell it to you for 400 bucks. They can do this because they have no real competition (Linux notwithstanding) - due to unchecked capitalism that has allowed them to grow to a size they are. If they were kept in check, there'd be more competition; prices wouldn't be as high and the over all quality of OS's across the board would more than likely be much higher.

So, no I am not completely anti-capitalism, it is indeed what has made this country great.

But, unchecked capitalism is the reason we, as a country, are no longer the leaders in anything except crime rates and shitty reality TV series. And, sadly, why we are in the situation we now face.

[Arlos]

Waah, they see they might only be able to make 1% profit on the refinery instead of 5%. Boo fucking hoo. No sympathy, none. Indeed, I support legislation to force them to upgrade EXISTING refineries to modern environmental standards, across the board across the country. Let them put a few of those billions of profits back into the infrastructure for a change, instead of ignoring it like they did that pipe on the north slope that blew recently because they neglected to do routine maintenance that they were legally obligated to do.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Congress actually just had a comittee meeting with Big Oil, and some are calling for anti-trust action against the Oil Companies.

Full story here: http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/16/news/ec ... tm?cnn=yes

Some notable snippets:

"They have no interest in building spare capacity because that would undermine their pricing power," Mark Cooper, research director for the Consumer Federation of America, said prior to a hearing by a House Judiciary Committee antitrust panel in Washington Wednesday.

At the hearing, monitored on television in New York, Cooper was just as blunt.

"This is a picture of fundamental market failure," he said. "And Congress and the administration have stood by and done nothing to help consumers."

Cooper pointed to the record earnings at oil companies and said in any other industry this would attract new businesses.

But he said the domestic refining industry has continued to consolidate, allowing operators to shun building refineries, run existing ones at full throttle and thus cause many of the accidents and outages the nation has experienced over the last few months.

"This is just mismanagement," he said. "But they get away with it because there is no competitive discipline."

Consumer Federation's Cooper said the refining industry hasn't even tried to build new refineries and has instead closed 50 since the 1990s rather than make investments to make them comply with pollution laws.

"They would rather not try and blame their neighbors," he said.

Verrry verrry eeeeeentahresting.

-Arlos

[Eziekial]

Don't you get it? It's cheaper to send oil we pull out of the US Gulf of Mexico to a refinery in the Bahamas then ship the fuel and chemicals back to the US then to design and build a refinery in the states due to the current rules and regulations. It's been regulated to death and now you want Congress to do more?
Oh and there is no such thing as "unchecked" capitalism. By it's very nature, captialism has checks in every single consumer and creator of goods and services. The reason we have consolidation is a direct result of onerous laws enacted over the course.
Does it make sense that a company who is profitable sell off a gold mine of a refinery? Call up Shell and ask them why they sold their LA refinery.

[Lyion]

Same article. I agree with what Cooper is saying, but if we can't break up MS, a real monopoly, we can't break up anyone.

the American Petroleum Institute, an oil industry group, in an e-mail sent out prior to the hearing, said nearly 30 state or federal investigation over the past 30 years have failed to turn up any evidence of price fixing.

On the refinery issue, API economist John Felmy told the committee that, while a new refinery hasn't been built in decades, overall refining capacity has increased at a rate that's the equivalent of adding one refinery a year.

And the nation's top four refiners - ConocoPhillips (Charts, Fortune 500), Valero (Charts, Fortune 500), Exxon Mobil (Charts, Fortune 500) and BP (Charts) - account for less that 50 percent of the country's refining capacity, a concentration that's smaller than many other industries, said Ron Planting, another API economist.

Felmy said in a phone interview that whenever the industry tries to add refining capacity, it faces opposition from surrounding communities. Moreover, Felmy questioned why the industry would make expensive refining expansions when President Bush is calling for a 20 percent reduction in gasoline use by 2017.

[Diekan]

Cooper seems to be saying what I had said in a previous post.

The oil companies don't want to build new refineries because it would eliminate one of their excuses for price gouging. They've used the greens' fight to their advantage and turned into a profit generating machine.