Have gun will travel to Oklahoma...

[brinstar]

boom goes the dynamite

[Gypsiyee]

was also a total fuckin loon. We might have gotten off lucky with 6 dead. What if he decided a bomb was the way to go ?

That's my entire point though, Spazz. He was a total fuckin loon, but he was deemed sane enough to legally purchase a firearm. What if he decided a bomb was the way to go? Well that would've taken a lot more knowledge and planning and would've had a much higher failure rate.

Dont get me wrong Im for adults doing what they want with their own bodies but other people get hurt by drug use and abuse besides the user. Broken homes accidents and all types of abuse and hurt feelings can be found near anyone who abuses.

Absolutely, but that's a family issue handled inside the home and has no effect on people or strangers who choose not to associate with the user.

Im sure you would put my pistol of choice on that list.

Yes, I would.

If I cant carry or own my glock than yes I think it is.


Has your dad done anything with his gun or do you just not like his logic for getting one? People like me and maybe your dad are " freaking out" because we dont want a right we see as important taken away from us.

Would you really feel unsafe and less free if you and I were sitting in the same room and you new I was carrying my .45 ? Im not trying to trap you I just get gung ho when this subject comes up because its something I feel very strongly about. Im sure I cant change your opinion but I think your logic is flawed.

But how is it impeding your freedom? Because someone's telling you that you can't have something you want? I don't get everything I want that isn't practical.. no one gets everything they want in life. What exactly does the word freedom mean to you? It sounds like you're basing your interpretation of it on a mental block of defiance and principle and that you're more hung up on the idea of having a right taken away than you are on the actual subject matter.

Honestly, yeah, I would feel less free because it'd make me feel incredibly uncomfortable. In the same room in a safe place, I see no reason why you'd need to have it and would view it as a threat.

Has he done anything with his 9mm? No, because it serves no purpose to him. He, like many others, got one just because he could and wanted to tell the government FU, not because he actually has a need for it. He lives in the burbs in a safe neighborhood and keeps it in the back of his closet behind his shoes. Even if he did need it in an emergency situation to defend himself, it'd be pretty hard to get to.. and yet he's considering a concealed weapons permit just because "he's an American and no one can take that right away!" Makes no sense.

[Spazz]

In a country with a high population sometimes people fall through the cracks. If you that insane chances or your going to kill people and it doesnt matter if its with a bomb a knife your bare hands or a gun .

Ive told you many of the practical reasons why Im for gun ownership but yes it also is a right.

Honestly, yeah, I would feel less free because it'd make me feel incredibly uncomfortable. In the same room in a safe place, I see no reason why you'd need to have it and would view it as a threat.

Your afraid of guns.

Busting your dads balls for having a gun is silly too. Hes obviously not dangerous with the thing so why feel threatened or give a fuck. He wants to own a gun. Its his right and ya never know what tomorrow may bring. Id tell him to take it out of the closet and put it under his pillow or in the nightstand but thats just me.

If everything we owned had to be 100 % safe and practical america would be a real fuckin drag. One pair of shoes, drive a smart car 35 miles an hour no pools no booze no nothinng.

. If you think drug use only effects the user and the family perhaps it is you who needs to take your blinders off. There is no practical reason to do drugs or drink either other than WANT. People fucked up out of they minds do silly things and have accidents all the time.

You are afraid of guns and people and Im sorry. If guns were evil kill everyone type objects that you seem to think they are and there are so many of them floating around how come more people arent shot each day ? It couldnt be that most who own them are responsible and somewhat sane could it ? If my or your dad or the guy down the street owning a gun makes you feel uncomfortable the problem is yours not ours. If your in florida like your info says you better just never leave the house again because people around you ARE carrying guns. You havent been killed or had one pulled on you either now have you. Your scared of guns plain and simple. Quit coming at me with all this practical nonsense or saying were wrong for exercising our rights and just stick to I DONT LIKE GUNS.

[Gypsiyee]

Why because I think they're pointless objects in the general population does that make me afraid of them? You ask me all these questions, I give you the answers, and you just go back to your preconceived notions anyway.

You didn't ask me if someone owning a handgun makes me uncomfortable. You asked me if you were sitting just me and you in the same room and you had a gun strapped to you if I would feel less free; my answer was yes, because I don't see why you'd feel the need to be armed with an unarmed person in a safe place. You're asking me a question then applying a different question once you get my answer because it's easier to do that than just accept that people who don't agree with you may have valid reasons for their beliefs too.

Drugs and alcohol release endorphins in the brain and cause users of them to experience elation among other feelings.. that's the purpose of them. Yes, they're used because people want to use them, but the purpose of them is to inebriate, entertain, and enhance. I really wish you would stop making asinine comparisons.

When did I ever say you're wrong for exercising your right? Where did I ever say everyone and everything should be 100% safe and practical? I said I'm a practical person, and I said that mainly to substantiate my beliefs on overindulgence in the US and people fighting for things with no better reason than "because I can." This isn't an "I'm right, you're wrong" discussion. This is a conversation about why we believe what we believe. It is possible to have conversation with people of differing opinions without trying to convert them, you know.. it's called gaining insight from outside perspective.

Spazz, I'm trying to have a respectful dialogue here, but quite frankly when you espouse ignorant nonsense that's completely irrelevant to the conversation and stuff you're just pulling out of your ass it's pretty difficult. I'm not telling you who you are for owning a gun and yet you're coming at me telling me what I believe or feel. It just makes you look like a bullheaded jackass incapable of having a conversation.

If you disagree with me, fine--I'm not expecting to convert you to my beliefs. But don't tell me what I believe, because that's foolish. It'd be easy for me to ignore everything you've said in this thread too and just presume that you have a small penis and try to overcompensate with a larger pistol, but that'd defeat the entire purpose of this conversation, wouldn't it? If I already have my mind made up that I know what you are and what you believe, the discussion would be a waste. Your presumptions and judgments serve the same. I've respectfully answered questions without accusing you of being a stereotype despite your continued cliche gun enthusiast rhetoric. I feel like I'm talking to Mindia at this point honestly.

[Spazz]

Well I really cant understand why being around someone who is armed would make you feel less free or uncomfortable other than fear. Im a pretty upstanding person. I try to do the right thing i just beleive that guns are a better way of protecting yourself than cops. I feel like you lump me in with loons and want to take away rights I believe in and that makes me pretty hostile. Im not some right wing tool and my comparisons are me trying to tell you that everything has its dangers but overall I think the risk is worth it. It also irritates me that you keep saying guns are impractical. Ive told you several practical reasons why i keep them. Ive never killed anybody I dont start fights with people i just try to live my life. Its offensive to me to hear people say that Im not or the millions of others like me arent safe to own a weapon because of a few fools. The few fools that spoil it for everyone weather its dope or guns are fools and are going to fuck up no matter what. This is more than a BECAUSE I CAN argument to me, I love to shoot I like to hunt and I have found myself in danger before. I also like to collect and hope someday ill have a child to pace them and the tradition on to. Those seem like pretty practical reasons to keep and carry to me. That said I also believe it to be a right that everyone should have. Why should you be treated like a criminal if you are not. Im not uncomfortable around weapons at all but I am uncomfortable around alcohol. I dont think it should be banned though I do think theres no practical use for it. It makes folks violent and it destroys lives. I dont think that just because there are some total fuck ups out there people should be denied the right to have a good time. Im pretty tired and kinda rambling on but i hope im making sense.

[Gypsiyee]

I didn't say they're impractical. I said they (to specify, I'm speaking about handguns/anything automatic) really serve no purpose in the average American citizen's home. I've said numerous times that your situation is different than that of your average owner.

By no means am I lumping you in with the stereotypical masses. If I were, I wouldn't bother responding to you because nothing could be gained from the conversation. I also don't believe in taking the right to gun ownership away, that's never been my stance--I said earlier in this thread that while in my ideal world that'd be how it was, but that I understand it's not feasible. I believe that the types of firearms needs to be more tightly regulated as do the standards for ownership. I understand your stance that you're a responsible owner and shouldn't be penalized for the actions of those irresponsible owners, but what I'm trying to convey is that one crazy like Jared Loughner can ruin it for responsible people because when a gun is legally sold to a person like that and they commit a crime like he did, there's no undoing that.

I don't believe that the right itself needs to be done away with. I believe that there need to be stricter waiting periods. More intense background checks. A ban on any type of automatic firearms (truly, there is no justification for them in the hands of average citizens). Get rid of concealed permits. I don't think the right should be taken away, I just think it should be a lot more difficult than it is. It's anyone's right to buy a house, too, but look what a process that is. I don't see why it should be any different when taking into consideration that the item being sold is an item used for dangerous purposes that can very easily kill or seriously injure. Putting that much power in someone's hands should be something that's requires a lot of scrutiny.

Responsible owners like you wouldn't be hurt by measures taken to limit ownership to people of sound mind who choose to own with reasonable purpose. I'm not a fan. I'll never have one in my home. That's my choice, and that's okay. You choose to have one in yours, and that's okay. My problem is with the veritable free for all that's currently in place and that so many people support.

[Drem]

weird, the only kind of gun i want to own is a handgun. thats right, i said it

so much easier to deal with than some big stupid rifle

[Jay]

If I were ever compelled to actually kill someone it'd be with a samurai sword. So much more personal that way and you can clean the evidence off!

[Spazz]

weird, the only kind of gun i want to own is a handgun. thats right, i said it

so much easier to deal with than some big stupid rifle

In a lot of ways that statement is very true.

Get rid of concealed permits. I don't think the right should be taken away, I just think it should be a lot more difficult than it is

In most states theres a process to getting one you cant just walk in and walk out with it on your hip. Also that statement is a contradiction. Also as a responsible gun owner that does effect me. As far as waiting periods go least on hand guns buying it is a few day process unless you have a cpl.

A ban on any type of automatic firearms

DO you mean serious full auto or semi auto and do you know the difference ? Those are already so restricted they might as well be banned. It will cost you a small fortune to own an automatic weapon for special permits and the gun itself. If you drop over 10 grand on a weapon you arent going to use it to kill someone then throw it away. Thats more for serious collectors than your average citizen.

Responsible owners like you wouldn't be hurt by measures taken to limit ownership to people of sound mind who choose to own with reasonable purpose

Really It would. The system in place for the most part works. THe occasional sociopath slips through but one of the traits of a sociopath is the ability to fool others. There are millions of guns and gun owners out there. If the system didnt work and loons were getting guns every day there would be a blood bath in the streets dont you think ? Hell most murders with guns arent done by loons either. They carried out by people who didnt buy their gun legally dont carry they gun legally and it usally has something to do with gangs/drugs. New gun control laws arent going to matter to that class of people. Most people arent gangsters most people arent defending drug turf. Most people are probably safe to own a hand gun and even carry one .

[Gypsiyee]

In most states theres a process to getting one you cant just walk in and walk out with it on your hip. Also that statement is a contradiction. Also as a responsible gun owner that does effect me. As far as waiting periods go least on hand guns buying it is a few day process unless you have a cpl.

I know there's a process--course it varies by state. A couple days isn't much of a waiting period, imo--takes longer than that in many states to get married.

DO you mean serious full auto or semi auto and do you know the difference ? Those are already so restricted they might as well be banned. It will cost you a small fortune to own an automatic weapon for special permits and the gun itself. If you drop over 10 grand on a weapon you arent going to use it to kill someone then throw it away. Thats more for serious collectors than your average citizen.

I mean both. I'm no gun buff so I'm not going to claim to know the intricacies, but my understanding is that a fully automatic keeps firing as long as the trigger is depressed and a semi automatic will continue to fire each time you pull the trigger (such as the glock used in arizona). I'm of the opinion to empty a full magazine so quickly with that much ease.

Really It would. The system in place for the most part works. THe occasional sociopath slips through but one of the traits of a sociopath is the ability to fool others. There are millions of guns and gun owners out there. If the system didnt work and loons were getting guns every day there would be a blood bath in the streets dont you think ? Hell most murders with guns arent done by loons either. They carried out by people who didnt buy their gun legally dont carry they gun legally and it usally has something to do with gangs/drugs. New gun control laws arent going to matter to that class of people. Most people arent gangsters most people arent defending drug turf. Most people are probably safe to own a hand gun and even carry one .

I don't doubt that most people are safe to own a handgun, but I think you're going from one extreme to another here. I don't believe it's the case that tons of loons are buying guns each day, and I think it's a little hyperbolic to say that the system works or we'd be seeing a bloodbath Armageddon. I think where we differ is that your take is that shit happens, and my take is that it can and should be prevented if at all possible.

I would like to know your take on why stricter regulations would hurt you, though.

[Spazz]

No carry hurts me I believe that is the number one purpose of owning a gun. It is the number one thing we are in disagreement on and it is the thing that is making me get riled up in this conversation.

Banning semi auto hurts me they are the most effective for sporting defense and hunting purposes. The reason glock is my pistol of choice is that its simple to use has no safety and weighs next to nothing. THey have almost no recoil and are prolly the most well designed afordable pistol you can purchase. Thats the reason why conceal and carry types, law enforcement, and bad guys all alike chose that brand. To put it simple its the best.

I personally think extended mags in hand guns is a silly idea it wrecks the balance. As far as semi auto rifles go ( OH MY GOD ASSAULT WEAPONS ) im not for any limit on mag size at all. 20 through 50 is prolly all I would want But some folks are built like brock lesnar and a 100 round drum weighs nothing to them. When I have some money saved up I intend to get an m14 and an ak and a 10 round or less mag seems silly to me . When you do bowling pins and speed shooting going through and reloading 500 mags seems like a waste. Like I said you wont catch me with a drum but 20 in m14 30 in an ak seems about right to me. DO i need it not at all but we all have "useless" things we want to own someday. By being an upstanding citizen and staying out of trouble I think I have earned the right. Then again I do live in metro detroit and 2012 is coming so ya never know

[Drem]

If I were ever compelled to actually kill someone it'd be with a samurai sword. So much more personal that way and you can clean the evidence off!

no way, icicles ftw

[Tossica]

My dad just gave me a S&W 40cal with 3 14 round clips and a box of hollow points. Not sure what I'm going to do with it but I guess I'm a gun owner now.

[Tossica]

I guess they are 15 rd clips. I'm gun dumb.

[Spazz]

Start by taking it to the range you will have a blast. If you like it conntinue learning and shooting. Option b disasemble it and put it up in the closet or somewhere. If you do that no accidents can happen but youll still have a pistol in case you change your mind. Did he just straight up give it to you or did you change registration ? You dont want to have an unregistered firearm in your house just in case you have police trouble.

[10sun]

Yeah, get it registered properly first and foremost.

[Gaazy]

and when you do go shoot it go buy some cheaper ammo and save the hollows for defense or a rainy day or whatever. That stuffs way too expensive to just go out and rain shells with. Just go to the gun store and tell them you just need somethin to shoot with and theyll give you cheaper stuff. Huge price difference

[Spazz]

Get a cleaning kit too. A good day at the range will make your guns look like they have been through a war.

[Lyion]

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/201 ... iguity.ars

Guns at home more likely to be used stupidly than in self-defense

This morning, a press release dropped that seemed designed to create controversy, given its title: "Guns in the home provide greater health risk than benefit." The fact that it came from a relatively obscure journal—the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine is not indexed by the PubMed system, and has no impact factor—suggests it might be an attempt at getting some publicity. Studies on this topic are also extremely challenging, as it's difficult to control for cultural and economic differences between nations and US states.

The author of the review, David Hemenway, however, specializes in this area, and works at the Harvard School of Public Health. Hemenway has been termed an "anti-gun researcher" by the NRA, and writes with a clear perspective. Nevertheless, within the limited scope of the review, his conclusions make sense: people do stupid things when angry or depressed, and the presence of a gun helps make that stupidity fatal. In contrast, successful use of a gun in self-defense is far more rare, and challenging to get right, so the public health perspective will always be skewed.

Hemenway takes a very narrow focus on public health issues related to the presence of guns in the home. "The article does not examine some of the possible benefits (e.g., the fun of target practice) or costs (e.g., loss of hearing) of gun use." It also generally avoids dealing with the consequences of what happens once the gun leaves the home. Instead, it focuses on death, injury and intimidation, and balances that against the protective value provided by guns.

When it comes to violence, nearly every figure suggests that increased presence of guns correlates with higher levels of injury and death. Homicide rates among the US population between 15 and 24 years of age are 14 times higher than those in most other industrialized nations. Children from 5 to 14 years old are 11 times more likely to be killed in an accidental shooting. Within the US, areas with high gun ownership have higher rates of these problems. And, for every accidental death, Hemenway cites research that indicates 10 more incidents are sufficient to send someone to the emergency room. Suicides are more likely to be successful when guns are involved, even though most people who survive such an attempt don't generally try a second time.

Nevertheless, these figures contain many instances of guns being used outside the home, or a gun that was brought to the incident by a third party. While most suicides with firearms do take place at home, most homicides do not, and generally the victim is not shot with their own gun. Thus, "the results have limited relevance concerning whether a gun in your own home increases or reduces your own risk of homicide," the review notes. Still, in cases where a homicide occurs in a home, the presence of a gun there is correlated with increased risk, even after controlling for things like drug use and previous arrests.

Overall, the author concludes the same thing applies to homicides and suicides: people regularly get involved in violence, and the presence of a gun is likely to elevate that to fatal levels. This is especially true for women. In a study of three metropolitan counties that is cited by the review, "Most of the women were murdered by a spouse, a lover, or a close relative, and the increased risk for homicide from having a gun in the home was attributable to these homicides." In the case of battered women, lethal assaults were 2.7 times more likely to occur if a gun was present in the house; no protective effect of the gun was found.

That's the bad news. In the limited scope of the review, the primary positive effect assigned to guns is deterrence, and, more specifically, deterrence against violence. Although, "Results suggest that self-defense gun use may be the best method for preventing property loss," this doesn't count from a public health perspective. And that's only the start of the problems; as the National Academies of Science noted in a report quoted by the author, "self-defense is an ambiguous term." As Hemenway himself puts it, "Unlike deaths or woundings, where the definitions are clear and one needs to only count the bodies, what constitutes a self-defense gun use and whether it was successful may depend on who is telling the story." If you have read this far, please mention Bananas in your comment below. We're pretty sure 90% of the respondants to this story won't even read it first,

Worse still, using a gun in self-defense is extremely rare (most instances involve using a gun to defend against animals): studies place defensive gun use at about one percent in home invasions and 0.1 percent in sexual assaults. Moreover, police reports suggest a lot of these uses involved inappropriate use of the gun.

Summing matters up, Hemenway notes that a number of surveys have found that a gun kept at home is far more likely to be used in violence, an accident, or a suicide attempt than self defense. (He also goes off on a long diversion about how a poorly trained gun owner is unlikely to use one well even when self defense is involved.) As a result, from a public health perspective, there's little doubt that a gun at home is generally a negative risk factor.

And, from the author's perspective, that's probably inevitable. "Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk, or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution, have lots of opportunities for inappropriate gun use," he wrote. "People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with each other in the course of a lifetime." In contrast, the opportunities to use guns in a context where the user isn't any of the above are probably always going to be rare.

Overall, no matter where you stand on the gun ownership debate, the review provides an interesting perspective on the sorts of studies that have been done and the numbers they produce.

[Spazz]

[10sun]

I was at my friend's tonight & we saw some taggers in action and we scared them off with my Jeep's headlights.

...he grabbed his pistol though.

[Spazz]

Never know when you might need it.