Racisms talk

[Gypsiyee]

we should also be talking about what a stupid fucking ill thought out law Stand your Ground is. We're talking about legislation that was heavily lobbied by an NRA extremist gun-totin' gramma; a law in which apparently no Florida legislator stopped to think 'oh, shit, we should probably think this out a little more because these types of situations aren't always clear and some judgmental fuck might use it as an excuse to shoot someone he doesn't like the look of.'

The law is fucking stupid. That Zimmerman hasn't been arrested is fucking stupid. That he still carries around the murder weapon is absolutely insane. That the news is making a bigger deal about race than they are about the fact that a 28 year old self-declared good-guy captain of the neighborhood followed and killed an unarmed minor is infuriating.

Zimmerman obviously had some racial prejudices, but that doesn't really matter to me here. Negative feelings are only dangerous if people act on those feelings. Zimmerman did, and that's what matters.

Racists looking for reasons to defend him and calling Trayvon Martin a thug just because he wore a grill sometimes and just like any other 17 year old wasn't a perfect kid is just as ridiculous as people trying to turn Martin into a saint; neither mindset is helpful when seeking justice in this case, and people are losing focus of what matters.

A man followed a minor who "appeared" threatening after being told not to by a 911 dispatcher, thereby becoming a threat himself. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if Martin got up on Zimmerman and started beating him to a bloody pulp after that--because the Stand your Ground law, imo, would be in defense of Trayvon Martin in that case. A man with a gun is following you.. well, I'd say that's a legitimate reason to feel threatened. Regardless of what transpired after that, an armed man killed an unarmed minor. That minor is dead, and that man is sitting at home scott-free stuffing his fat face with blood on his hands while people actually defend his actions.

Zimmerman isn't the victim here, and people who feel he is have a questionable mental capacity that I just can't wrap my head around.. the dead kid is the victim. The dead kid's family and friends are the victims. Unarmed and dead: victim. Armed and alive: not victim.

Regardless of if Trayvon Martin was partaking in shenanigans, this isn't rocket science. The biggest threat to Zimmerman were the fists of a skinny kid who was half the size of him. The biggest threat to Martin was a bullet.

[ClakarEQ]

So you're saying if he was hispanic he would have let him go and wouldn't have done the same thing. I think you're ignorant if that is what you think. It could have been a white kid in a hoodie, wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

I think folks are just jump on the bandwagon looking for something from nothing.

The place had been robbed before, yes it was robbed by "black" people according to the news.
I'm sure THAT gave extra motivation to Zimmerman to follow the boy.
He wasn't killed or followed BECAUSE he was black, he would have been followed regardless, and if what is coming out is true, if Trayvon did NOT attack Zimmerman, he'd still be alive.

Folks don't want to listen to the facts, they want to make up the same sensationalism shit they hear on the news.

He didn't get arrested though because of the law, and THAT is fucked up.

EDIT
So if you listen to the facts, and follow the law, you're a racist? Hmm, that's an interesting perspective. I think what Zimmerman did was wrong and should be in jail but isn't because of the law. I think he followed the kid like he'd follow ANYONE who is acting suspicious. Are folks here saying he shot the kid because he was black, followed him because he was black, seriously? He shot the kid because he didn't want to get beat up, it's that simple. Lets play racism games though, sure.

[Zanchief]

So you're saying if he was hispanic he would have let him go and wouldn't have done the same thing. I think you're ignorant if that is what you think. It could have been a white kid in a hoodie, wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

Would you mind trying to make this argument? He's been known to be racist. He went after a black kid. He didn't go after any white kids. How is this not race related? You seem to be the one unable to accept the facts here.

[Spazz]

we should also be talking about what a stupid fucking ill thought out law Stand your Ground is. We're talking about legislation that was heavily lobbied by an NRA extremist gun-totin' gramma; a law in which apparently no Florida legislator stopped to think 'oh, shit, we should probably think this out a little more because these types of situations aren't always clear and some judgmental fuck might use it as an excuse to shoot someone he doesn't like the look of.'

I gotta say I agree with you. I think that the stand your ground rule really needs to have some rules of engagement and it needs to state you cant just pop someone becuase they was giving you the willies.

I'm sure THAT gave extra motivation to Zimmerman to follow the boy.
He wasn't killed or followed BECAUSE he was black, he would have been followed regardless, and if what is coming out is true, if Trayvon did NOT attack Zimmerman, he'd still be alive.

Claker how would you react if youw ere just minding you own and some big ass dude came up on you in the dark and started following you. Also fuck zimmerman its real easy for him to say whatever he want the dead kid isnt going to tell his side of the story.

How bout his coon comment

How bout the billion calls to the cops about suspicious blacks since the year began?

How does zimmermans feelings towards black folks not have anything to do with this case?

[brinstar]

So you're saying if he was hispanic he would have let him go and wouldn't have done the same thing. I think you're ignorant if that is what you think. It could have been a white kid in a hoodie, wouldn't have made a lick of difference.

Would you mind trying to make this argument? He's been known to be racist. He went after a black kid. He didn't go after any white kids. How is this not race related? You seem to be the one unable to accept the facts here.

seriously there's no fucking discussion to be had here

clakar you're off the map dude

[Harrison]

So many people just gulping down the news without a care in the world to the HUGE discrepancies between the eyewitness accounts, dispatch tape, and paramedics first on the scene, police accounts, etc.

You just automatically devour the idea that this guy "stalked this kid down and shot him for being black" because you want to believe it.

You're smarter than this people.

[brinstar]

So many people just gulping down the news without a care in the world to the HUGE discrepancies between the eyewitness accounts, dispatch tape, and paramedics first on the scene, police accounts, etc.

You just automatically devour the idea that this guy "stalked this kid down and shot him for being black" because you want to believe it.

You're smarter than this people.

what, is it too outlandish to be true? you don't think this tool did ANYTHING wrong? come on, get real. would there have even been a "confrontation" if he had taken dispatch's advice to NOT FUCKING FOLLOW THE KID? fuck no. you accuse one side of ignoring half of the story while you ignore the other half, and it's just stupid.

[Gypsiyee]

George Zimmerman: armed, alive
Trayvon Martin: unarmed, dead

Uh, there's no other detail that would change my mind about it. I have eyes, and Georgy isn't tiny and helpless. You're telling me a bullet through a vital organ is the only option for a man twice the size of the victim? You're saying we want to believe what we want, but you're doing just that based on your own prejudices, however justified they are in your experiences.

Fighting a fist with a gun even if Martin did attack him (after being followed, a situation where i might be inclined to knock the shit out of someone too) isn't self defense. It's murder. There's pretty much nothing that changes the fact an unarmed person was killed by an armed person, even if I were to believe Zimmerman was scared for his life and not just some racist prick wannabe vigilante.

[Ganzo]

Maybe waiting for all the evidence and investigation to be completed, before arguing about speculations, is a better idea. When you are in the middle of an altercation and a person reaches into his pocket, it is always a better choice to shoot first and later check if he had a gun or skittles in his pocket. Better go to jail than end up dead or a cripple.

[Jay]

Maybe waiting for all the evidence and investigation to be completed, before arguing about speculations, is a better idea. When you are in the middle of an altercation and a person reaches into his pocket, it is always a better choice to shoot first and later check if he had a gun or skittles in his pocket. Better go to jail than end up dead or a cripple.

I get what you mean dude but there's no way this kid was lookin to taste the rainbow suddenly when zim went after him. Im certain the drink and skittles were already in hand. And I don't think zim was thinking, "oh look, it's one o dem negroes! Let's cap him!" but I do think he had a racial predisposition against African Americans which led him to do what he did in the heat of the moment. This is racially motivated because Trayvon's being black put zim in suspicious attack mode. Now if some mark zuckerberg lookin kid with a hoodie were walking around you think it would end the same way? This wasn't a fight it was an execution and Zim needs to be in prison.

[brinstar]

Maybe waiting for all the evidence and investigation to be completed, before arguing about speculations, is a better idea. When you are in the middle of an altercation and a person reaches into his pocket, it is always a better choice to shoot first and later check if he had a gun or skittles in his pocket. Better go to jail than end up dead or a cripple.

I get what you mean dude but there's no way this kid was lookin to taste the rainbow suddenly when zim went after him. Im certain the drink and skittles were already in hand. And I don't think zim was thinking, "oh look, it's one o dem negroes! Let's cap him!" but I do think he had a racial predisposition against African Americans which led him to do what he did in the heat of the moment. This is racially motivated because Trayvon's being black put zim in suspicious attack mode. Now if some mark zuckerberg lookin kid with a hoodie were walking around you think it would end the same way? This wasn't a fight it was an execution and Zim needs to be in prison.

[Menelvir]

I think the stand-your-ground laws (and possibly Castle laws as ancillary subset of stand-your-ground laws) could be tweaked to reflect situational particulars. To me, there's a difference between use of deadly force in a situation that you had an active role in creating, and use of deadly force in a situation into which you were unwillingly placed and/or of which you had no foreknowledge.

Now, regarding racism: If I commit one racist act, am I then correctly and irrevocably labelled a racist? Regardless of the severity of the act? Regardless of my history or my past actions?

If so, then I guess the discussion ends there. If not, then how much historical evidence needs to be presented against me in order to accurately label me as a racist?

I know almost nothing about this Zimmerman guy nor his history -- did he have a history of assaulting people of other races or regularly using racial slurs outside of this incident?

The terms 'racist' and 'racism' are extremely loaded terms and they bring controversy with them wherever they are used.

Based solely on what I've read, (which admittedly isn't much), I don't necessarily see this as a racially-motivated incident -- I haven't seen enough in the way of detail. What I did see was a large number of people marching in support of presenting the situation in a racist context, to the extent that Spike Lee is giving out address information that he thought belonged to Zimmerman, yet which turned out to be completely inaccurate (and caused harm to people that had no relation to this incident at all).

Shooting an unarmed person, yes, that raises lots of questions, but I didn't see the events play out, I wasn't there.

Ceteris paribus, if Zimmerman wasn't armed and the situation played out again, would Zimmerman still be alive? If Zimmerman were killed by Martin, would there be the same level of hue and cry about racism?

I'm not taking any side -- to me, there isn't enough information. If there's enough for you and you've passed your judgement, then I guess I envy you. There's a lot of unanswered questions.

I also think it's possible that the shooting was unjustified and yet not attributable to racism.

Also, I think there's justifiable levels of discrimination, and that doing so is not necessarily equal to racism, depending on situational factors. If I'm a store owner, and I have a varied distribution of customers of different racial types, and my store has been robbed 6 times by people of racial type X, and 0 times by people of racial type Y, am I being discriminatory if I more closely observe people of type X as they're in the store? Would it be justified? Is it racism?

I can sit here and imagine detail after detail that might apply here, and all it does it raise more and more questions in my mind, and few if any of them are answerable in a way that would be satisfying.

I don't envy our justice system or the decisions that people are going to have to make in the upcoming weeks and months over this.

[Spazz]

I think the stand-your-ground laws (and possibly Castle laws as ancillary subset of stand-your-ground laws) could be tweaked to reflect situational particulars. To me, there's a difference between use of deadly force in a situation that you had an active role in creating, and use of deadly force in a situation into which you were unwillingly placed and/or of which you had no foreknowledge.

Bingo seriously this right here. If you created the situation than you cant claim self defense. If you provoke a major incident that wouldnt have happened if you wouldnt have been doing whatever retarded thing you were doing in the first place than you should in no way be able to say i was minding my own and had to kill a man.

I seriously think that due to lack of evidence and muddy waters this dude is going to walk and that sets a really bad example for other racist nut jobs out there. I got black friends and I dont want them to get kilt just for walking to get newports and a blunt wrap while wearing a hoody.

Also, I think there's justifiable levels of discrimination, and that doing so is not necessarily equal to racism, depending on situational factors. If I'm a store owner, and I have a varied distribution of customers of different racial types, and my store has been robbed 6 times by people of racial type X, and 0 times by people of racial type Y, am I being discriminatory if I more closely observe people of type X as they're in the store? Would it be justified? Is it racism

I spose your free to do what you want but when you offend all your custos and they stop coming or the white kids rob you blind while you watch the black ones it will be your own fault. Do you really think black people ocmmit way more crimes than whites or do you just think that they get watched more so they get busted more ? Also it is a fact that blacks get harsher sentences.

No matter what way you try to come at it from america has some issues with race that really need to be talked about and fixed. Without giving smart assed or racist answers we need to ask ourselves as a society why there are so many blacks in jail , on welfare and just in general seen as criminals. My thoughts are that there are a lot of people who remeber the fire hoses and MLK . I know that it is offensive when you hear mindia types say slavery ended in the 1860s I dont know what these peoples problem is conveniently forgetting about jim crow lynchings systematic violence and jim crow. I think a lot of black families dont have as much wealth accumulated for the reason I just mentioned and so public school is very important to them and with it in shambles it isnt helping black people in america prepare for the modern future. I think outsourcing has hurt the black comunity very badly due to the fact that a lot of them arent as educated as they white counterparts and so well paying low education type jobs are very important to the urban centers of america. WIth the loss of so man jobs it has turned many intercities into third world countries that those with more money are just not aware of how bad those areas are. I think the war on drugs is a racist policy and welfare program for local counties and it targets blacks and black culture more so than any other group in the country. We all know it is silly but we are powerless to change it. Last that not least I think white people need to understand afirmitive action and stop bitching. If it wasnt for there being so much racism out there we wouldnt have to force people to hire outside of thier own kind. I think that is just a glance into the conversation that america needs to have with itself in regards to race and why things are the way they are.

Again I am sorry my thoughts tend to be very scattered when Im just coming home from work.

[Tuggan]

ladies and gentlemen, Immortal Technique.

[Spazz]

No man you got me confused with this guy

[ClakarEQ]

Hmm, so even the mother now thinks it was an accident, sort of pokes a bunch of holes in the "he's a racist" comments, aye?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... ident?lite

2 more months until we all forget anyway . . .

[Zanchief]

How exactly does this punch holes into anything? It couldn't have been an accident. Anything to be right on the internet I guess.

[ClakarEQ]

The hole it punches is she was the first one to claim race, now she says it was an accident (i.e NOT RACE), now she says it wasn't an accident.

WTF, I don't think she even knows what to think.

I hear you re: anything to be right on the internet, this "racism" based thread is a perfect example LOL

[Zanchief]

How can it be an accident? How are we giving this any merit? So the gun just went off? Even if it was an accident (which I don't think it can under any legitimate circumstance) it would be still be one brought on by severe prejudice. What is your argument for this not being racially motivated? That he targeted a black youth instigated a fight and killed him only because he looked thuggish and dangerous and NOT because he was black?

[ClakarEQ]

Why do you feel the requirement to enforce guilt when that is 100% not how the system work. Guilt is proven, innocence is given. You, as others, appear to disagree with our system such that you are guilty until proven innocent, and that is not how it works, as you know.

You will NEVER prove it was done because of race, there is absolutely no fact you can base the argument on to even imply it was a race motivated crime. You could may be imply profiling, I suppose, and that would be justified by past experience just as much as the TSA or any other legal entity uses profiling.

I’ve said all along that Zimmerman is at fault, I’ve said he should go to jail but won’t because the law protects him in that state. I maintain my point regarding this NOT being a race motivated killing. He followed the “black guy” because that is what history told him to do. You’ve been broken into X times and from what has been told, it was a black guy. I never said it was an accident, she did, then she didn't, then well, she just doesn't know (of course after talking with her lawer).

It seems to me that you’re saying, if history shows that if I see A, and B happens, and know this A to B connection, that when I see A such that B may happen, to ignore A, and let B happen, that makes no sense.

To remove the logic talk of sorts. If the community has seen a black man BnE in the complex, your “security” sees a white guy walking around, there is no reason to follow, but if you see a black guy, there is reason to follow. You are calling that racism, I’m calling that appropriate.

To me, it is no different than a cop being told a car was stolen and the driver was black, should the cop pull over a white driver that matches the same “spec” of the stolen car? If he doesn’t, is he racist? If he does, is he racist? How is he not racist regardless of what action he takes. He is taking an action exclusively by race (well, and the car in this case).

[Zanchief]

So let me see if I got this straight. You're saying it's impossible to prove motive in cases of racism therefore since a person is innocent until proven guilty, one can never be guilty of racism. I think you've just proven racism doesn't exist! YAY! Phew it was dicey there for a while but I guess it's over.

[Lyion]

I'm curious why you think Zimmerman is a racist, Zanchief? The guy is hispanic and has no history of any sort of racism. Likewise, the 911 tapes, which were grossly misrepresented by NBC, also do not show anything except a paranoid guy in a high crime neighborhood. The fact the kid appeared to be casing houses and in a hoodie probably added to things. I think Zimmerman would have acted the same regardless of the race, as he is nuts.

I think stand your ground is a terrible law. Unfortunately it applies to this and they'll be lucky to get a conviction here, as the eyewitness accounts were that the kid was beating the snot out of him and the shooting was justified based on the crappy law.

At the end of the day the problem isn't one of racism but of guns. They are easy to get, common, and are offensive weapons. Imagine if this vigilante had a tazer gun or mace solely?

[Arlos]

Here's a question no one seems to be asking:

What about Treyvon Martin's right to self defense? Look at it from his point of view. He's doing nothing wrong, he's walking home from the store, and a strange guy with a gun keeps following and harassing him, and won't leave him alone. I know I'd be pretty nervous if all I'm doing is walking and this large armed man kept following me for no reason even when I tried to run and lose him.

I think it's entirely reasonable that Treyvon would be in fear of his life or of bodily harm. Given that, wouldn't HE have been justified under that moronic "Stand Your Ground" law to pull out his OWN pistol if he had one and shoot Zimmerman, the crazy guy who kept following him for no apparent reason? Since he DIDN"T have a gun, doesn't he have some right to defend himself against an apparent stalker with unknown intentions?

Do you honestly think that if he HAD done so that he'd have gotten off as scot-free as Zimmerman did until the media raised a shitstorm? Somehow, I doubt that...

-Arlos

[Spazz]

Let me explain real simple where the racism comes from in real simple words so it is clear to you.

To assume that a black kid in a hoodie is up to no good from the get go is the racist part.

[brinstar]

i was just having this argument on FB again

here's what everyone must keep in mind: the trial will not be about whether zimmerman shot trayvon dead. that is an undisputed fact, and Z never said otherwise from day 0. no, the trial will be about whether the SYG law applies. Z's attorney(s) will try to prove that the SYG law gives Z sufficient legal immunity for his actions, and the prosecution will try to prove that Z went far beyond the SYG law's intended scope by ignoring a police order not to engage, following T around, and initiating contact - in other words, their argument will be that Z left his "ground" in order to confront T on his, which necessarily nullifies any claim to self-defense. THAT is what the trial will be about. do you not see the distinction? if Z was just chillin' in his car the whole time and T ran up on him to start shit and got popped, this would be a tragic and stupid but ultimately unprosecutable event. AND, as arlos said, what about T's ground? doesn't he get any ground to stand on?


now, if you haven't noticed, please realize that until this sentence my post has not mentioned race at all. lyion, your comment that "the guy is hispanic and has no history of any sort of racism" is pretty hilarious. are you really implying that hispanic people are unable to harbor racism against black people? if that's the case then holy shit we gotta isolate that gene sequence pronto!!! besides, if you want to get technical, "hispanic" is not an individual race - it is actually considered a subset of caucasian.

second, "no history of any sort of racism"? [citation needed]. actually i find it fascinating that you'd rather write off the rank odor of racism surrounding this case and instead blame it on GUNS - are conservatives that deep in the closet about race that they'd throw gun rights under the bus before coming out? holy shit