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Postby Tossica » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:32 pm

lyion wrote:
Myg0t wrote:Most decisions that needed to be made for what happened had to pass through congress, not Bush... right?


Neither.

States are autonomous.. Not that the liberals know or care. They just scream Bush bad over and over regardless of facts.

The only thing W could've done is declared Louisiana in a state of insurrection, which it clearly wasn't.

The people without a clue will continue to post laughable bullshit and those without a 5th grade understanding of basic civics will continue to have tunnel vision.



[font=Impact]From the Dept of National Security - National Response Plan


Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events


The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and
mechanisms for proactive Federal response to
catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural
or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results
in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or
disruption severely affecting the population,
infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale,
and/or government functions. A catastrophic event
could result in sustained national impacts over a
prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds
resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and
private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and
significantly interrupts governmental operations and
emergency services to such an extent that national
security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are
Incidents of National Significance.

Implementation of Proactive Federal
Response Protocols

Protocols for proactive Federal response are most likely
to be implemented for catastrophic events involving
chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-yield
explosive weapons of mass destruction, or largemagnitude
earthquakes or other natural or technological
disasters in or near heavily populated areas.

Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response

Guiding principles for proactive Federal response
include the following:

■ The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical
infrastructure, property, and the environment;
contain the event; and preserve national security.
■ Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance
may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances,
suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
■ Identified Federal response resources will deploy and
begin necessary operations as required to commence
life-safety activities.
■ Notification and full coordination with States will occur,
but the coordination process must not delay or impede
the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.
States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
■ State and local governments are encouraged to
conduct collaborative planning with the Federal
Government as a part of “steady-state” preparedness
for catastrophic incidents.

Implementation Mechanisms for Proactive
Federal Response to Catastrophic Events

The NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement (described in the
Catastrophic Incident Annex) addresses resource and procedural
implications of catastrophic events to ensure the rapid
and efficient delivery of resources and assets, including special
teams, equipment, and supplies that provide critical lifesaving
support and incident containment capabilities. These
assets may be so specialized or costly that they are either not
available or are in insufficient quantities in most localities.
The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic
Incident Supplement are based on the following:

■ The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
■ The strategic location of pre-identified assets for
rapid deployment; and
■ The use of pre-scripted mission assignments for
Stafford Act declarations, or individual agency
authority and funding, to expedite deployment upon
notification by DHS (in accordance with procedures
established in the NRP Catastrophic Incident
Supplement) of a potential catastrophic event.
Agencies responsible for these assets will keep DHS
apprised, through the HSOC, of their ongoing status and
location until the JFO is established. Upon arrival at the
scene, Federal assets will coordinate with the Unified
Command, the SFLEO, and the JFO (or its forward
elements) when established. Demobilization processes,
including full coordination with the JFO Coordination
Group, are initiated either when the mission is
completed or when it is determined the magnitude of
the event does not warrant continued use of the asset.[/font]


The FACT is, way more people suffered and/or died than would have if the Feds had not fucked around and left it up to corporations and private efforts to do what needed to be done. That's fucking sad. If you can't recognize the HUGE mistake that just occurred, I don't know what else to say. I guarantee heads will roll for this.
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Postby Gargamellow » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:38 pm

Don't blame Bush, he was on vacation the entire time.

BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
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Postby Arlos » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:26 pm

I am SURE that Brown's previous management history, which consisted of being fired as manager of an Arabian Horse association (combined with being the ex-roommate of the previous FEMA head) immensenly helped him in his preparation to lead the US disaster recovery agency. What, you think that having some actual, you know, training or background in disasters and disaster recovery might be, I dunno, a useful job pre-requisite for the man heading FEMA? You must be a radical leftist and a divider, not a uniter, to think such things!

Good fucking gods. Brown was completely unqualified, his appointment was cronyism and nepotism at its most blatant, and now that FEMA NEEDED a competant head, because of an actual, you know, EMERGENCY THAT NEEDED MANAGING, he was exposed for the useless waste of misspent semen that he is.

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Postby Lyion » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:40 pm

FEMA screwed up by trusting a partisan governor and incompetent mayor. Brown absolutely made mistakes and should have pushed harder.

However, you are not seeing the simple truth, and misunderstood mission statements do not change the LAW OF THE LAND. There are still procedures and the Feds cannot supersede the state on state matters.

Notification and full coordination with States will occur,
but the coordination process must not delay or impede
the rapid deployment and use of critical resources.
States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.


THE STATE CONTROLS AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS CITIES. The Feds respond and help the state based on what the state wants. If the Governor says do not send in the Red Cross, the red cross does not come. This is how it is. This is how it should be. The feds do not know areas better than the state and local governments, and most care more about their cities than this. Rationale people ask why and blame the person in charge when everything is done. Unless its partisan politics, then you blame the Prez in DC about a cities infrastructure, corruption, and ineptitude.

Governor Blanco denied the Red Cross and other aid entering the city. She denied the Feds request to take over. She nor the mayor did not request help evacuating. OTher states had guardsman waiting, she did not ask even when they called proactively. She was busy building her own political infrastructure and denying fed help instate. THOSE ARE HER AUTONOMOUS RIGHTS as GOVERNOR. She should be culpable. She will get gutted once the liberal media falsely tries to make it a federal issue.

W could take over solely by citing the insurrection act which was not warranted, but he did not know what was going on, and the incompetence of the state and local authorities is a big reason why.

FEMA made mistakes. Brown should be fired. However the lions share of the blame goes on Blanco and Nagin for the utmost in incompetence and trying to push their failures on to the Feds, when Blanco was the biggest reason for almost EVERY breakdown and problem there!

Since you are busy blaming Bush for a LOCAL failure, you did SEE the plan for evacuating New Orleans that was not followed correctly? You also do know about the federalist laws that allow Blanco control, and the fact the Federal Government cannot supercede her authority?

So, lets recap shall we?

W presses for a Mandatory evacuation. Blanco and Nagin decline, as is their right.

W has FEMA mobilized a week ahead of time and the Red Cross is ready to bring supplies IMMEDIATELY. Both are forbidden from entering the city by the state authorities, as is their right.

The Coast Guard arrives IMMEDIATELY and starts rescuing as they do not need state approval.

THE GUARD IS NOT MOBILIZED by the Governor and 5 DAYS LATER SHE HAS NOT DECLARED A DISASTER AREA. Hello? Of course, this is ignored by the media. Why?

The Governor consistently denies federal request to take over and proceed.

The mayor and governor DO NOT FOLLOW THE CITY evacuation or contingency plans at all.


Now, read the above points and keep telling yourself the Feds fucked up here. Yep, heads are going to roll. If one isn't blind to the simple truths and facts, it's fairly easy to see who.
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Postby Arlos » Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:52 pm

Why didn't FEMA follow through on the plan they had in the 90s? Why weren't there hospital ships off-shore ready to take on wounded or sick people from the on-shore hospitals, and provide supplies of fresh water? The plans in the 90s called for several ships to basically be tailing the hurricane, so they could be RIGHT THERE the moment the hurricane passed, so that they could help immediately. What happened in 2005? No hospital ship even LEFT PORT until a WEEK after we knew Katrina was going to hit New Orleans, and they sent ONE.

The plans from the 90s also called for pumping ships to be available to help drain water from effected areas. Where are those ships? You don't think that ships and helecopters being in the area could've gotten aid to places like Placquemines County (where Vincente is) a LOT faster than they got aid?

As for declaring a disaster area, I remember seeing news reports that that was done before Katrina even hit. Yes, the Governor is a complete fucking retard and deserves to be dismissed from office, and never work in politics again. I don't care what party she's from, she's an incompetant shitheel, she needs to be gone.

Also, how can you possible excuse Brown and Chertoff NOT KNOWING about the people in the Superdome or the Convention center, when the entire rest of the world had known about them being in increasingly dire straits for more than 24 hours? How can you excuse the white house budget office for trimming the request BY the Corps of Engineers for NO levee improvements from > 100mil to 40mil in the budget submitted to congress?

Face it, there were massive failures on every level, and in no way are you going to obfuscate the fact that FEMA and the Feds failed COMPLETELY. Just as completely as Blanco failed. Nagin, I don't know, but read Vincente's comments, he's right there, in the middle of this, and he's publicly stated 100% support for Nagin. I think he knows better than you, I, or any of the talking heads at Fox News that you kited your information from. (yeah, like Fox News is going to say one word that makes Bush or the Republican administration look bad. riiiiiight.)

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Postby Lyion » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:01 pm

1. The hospitals ships werent offshore because the HURRICANE was there, and they can't be there. You know, the big 200+ mile thing that caused the devastation? Thats a ludicrous argument. The Coast guard deployed and moved rapidly to get there. The hospital ship also WASNT needed because we have SAR ready to move, and Red Cross was ready to bring supplies, that were DENIED by the State government!

2. The city and state plans for New Orleans are the responsibiity of...who? The City and State.

3. The Feds were NOT ALLOWED in the city immediately and it was run by, who? The state and local infrastructure. Who recruited and trained that police force who disintegrated? That'd be the locals. The Feds SUPPORT the state infrastructure and cannot see what is happening immediately, ESPECIALLY if there is no request for support and the Governor is blocking their aid!

4. Brown is incompetent, has been relieved, and should be fired. He is SMALL beans compared to the outrageous fuckups by Nagin and Blanco who did not at all follow their OWN plans or procedures, and completely fucked up.

5. There were failures on the federal level, but the lions share again are for the onsite people responsible for New Orleans who dropped the ball at every turn!

Simple truths

--“The mayor and the governor are negligent and incompetent. The administration has tried to smooth out the chain of command, but she won't do it. The constitution says that the governor is in charge of the Guard.” (The Washington Post wrote about this on Saturday--and KJL excerpted the relevant bit in here.)

--“None of those poor people were moved prior to the storm. They were told to go to the Superdome, but they had to walk there. Whose responsibility is that?”

-- “General Honore in one day got 20,000 people evacuated from the convention center with a ground and air evacuation.

--“The DoD has been tasked with 40-50 missions here. DoD is the go-to organization for DHS. DHS is trying to build the capacity, but doesn't have it yet. DHS is all brain power and no brawn.”

--“Michael Brown has not done a good job and is in over his head. But, in fairness, FEMA is not organized to handle a catastrophe of this size.”

--“There will be 50k troops there by mid-week, a combination of active duty and National Guard. Including elements of 82nd Airborne Division, First Cavalry Division, and two Marine brigades. That's in just over a week. That's amazing. But no one realizes it. They had to trot General Honore out this morning to try to explain to the media how you move troops. There were National Guard pre-positioned in the north part of Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana two days the storm, watching the storm, seeing which way it was going to go, and once the storm hit, moving troops in immediately. There was a flow-plan that's been working since.”

--“The constitution says the governor is in charge of the Guard. The president would have to invoke the Insurrection Act to over-ride that. No president has done that since the Civil War. And he would have to do it over the head of the governor. Bush is not there yet.”


--“The military is there anyway on the principle: 'It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.' Federal troops can't do law enforcement. So they are being creative. National Guard will embed in active military units and be there to make actual arrests. That's very similar to what has been done in past hurricanes and the Coast Guard has done the same thing with the Navy in the past.”

--“There are no law enforcement problems in Mississippi. They have been acting there with the cooperation of the governor. In New Orleans, they don't have the same kind of cooperation from the governor or the mayor. It's not as stream-lined or as effective as it could be.”

--“The New Orleans police disintegrated. The national response plan calls for state and local to be the first on the scene. But the catastrophe wiped out the whole local infrastructure and the emergency communications. 80% of the police disintegrated and they are just not beginning to re-constitute.”
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Postby Tossica » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:49 pm

The Governor called a state of emergency on August 26th.
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Postby Martrae » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:04 am

State of Emergency is different than Disaster.
Inside each person lives two wolves. One is loyal, kind, respectful, humble and open to the mystery of life. The other is greedy, jealous, hateful, afraid and blind to the wonders of life. They are in battle for your spirit. The one who wins is the one you feed.
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Postby Tossica » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:00 am

Yeah, ok Martrae. There was NOTHING that could have been done differently by the feds to save lives. It was apparant to most of the world that they needed some serious help 6 fucking days before that help arrived. That's fucked up whether you want to admit it or not.
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Postby Arlos » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:07 am

1. The hospitals ships werent offshore because the HURRICANE was there, and they can't be there. You know, the big 200+ mile thing that caused the devastation? Thats a ludicrous argument. The Coast guard deployed and moved rapidly to get there. The hospital ship also WASNT needed because we have SAR ready to move, and Red Cross was ready to bring supplies, that were DENIED by the State government!


Did you actually read what I wrote? The plans that were drawn up by FEMA in the 90s, back when it was actually run and staffed by competant individuals, stated that there would be hospital ships FOLLOWING the hurricane so that they would be off-shore WHEN IT HAD PASSED. Also, damn straight they would've helped. We KNEW that storm was going to kill power and water over the entire region. How much easier is it to evac someone 2 miles away to a ship than get them 150 miles away to a hospital in another state? Or even if you're evaccing someone to a field hospital, methinks the hospital ships have much better facilities, yes? Not to mention, each one of those ships can produce massive amounts of fresh water, daily, without any worry of losing power, etc. You don't think that would've helped?

Yes, Blanco fucked up, but the Feds fucked up just as badly. You're buying into the Rove spin machine, who are trying to completely deflect blame away from the administration. Oh, and BTW, the Washington Post posted a retraction of the claim that Blanco hadn't done her declarations on the 26th, only hours after they originally made it. So, that one is flat-out not true.

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Postby Lyion » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:58 am

The hospital ships were not needed at all, and as a person who has done sea deployments its not as easy as you try to paint it, and the USS Bataan was onsite immediately after the Hurricane, as well as the Coast Guard. Did you bother to read what Blanco decreed and what actually was going on?

Why did she prevent the Salvataion Army and Red Cross from going in?

THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE OF FRESH WATER AND SUPPLIES, EXCEPT BLANCO WOULD NOT ALLOW THE RELIEF EFFORTS IN! The hosptial ships were worthless in this case. You cant bring them into New Orleans and its easier to evac to nearby setup shelters.

No matter what bizarre tangent of blame you go on, the simple truth is Blanco stopped aid going in. Period. The Fed response is what it is, and if you want to blame a bureacratic institution that issues checks for not writing them fast enough, well heck, go ahead. The simple fact is the local authorites, ya know, like the ones in NY who died completely failed and the New Orleans officials ignored their own evac plan.

It's amazing how all those hurricane efforts last year by FEMA were superb, but when the locals completely drop the ball how suddenly the Feds are slow and not taking over things illegally quick enough.

I do find humor in the fact you try to portray the 90s as more disaster ready, except Clinton gutted the Navy, so in fact the opposite was true. I know, I was in it back then.

The problem is so many are jumping on the bandwagon because of their partisan nasty hatred of Bush, rather than looking at the two real culprits which are the Hurricane itself which was devastating, and the system.

The real problems are why were 100,000 still in the City. Was that a Federal or state issue?

Why were the law enforcement and guard, controlled by the state, not prepositioned correctly?

And, of course, why were relief supplies which could've been there immediately blocked?

FEMA was too slow, but FEMA is not a rapid response team. It was created as a burearcracy to support local and state groups. It works well when the local and state authorities aren't incompetent and corrupt, as in this case.
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Postby Martrae » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:12 am

The hospital ships were there. They just weren't used because it took 30 minutes to helicopter people there and only 10 minutes to the triage area they set up at the airport.

Disasters are always under the jurisdiction of the Governor and local government. It's their call on when to call in aid and the federal government cannot just step all over their constitutional rights. This wasn't a terrorist attack where Bush could just step in and take over this was a natural disaster. The Governor declaring a state of emergency merely means that Martial Law is in effect and emergency plans should be implemented. It's not a call for aid.
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