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Postby Evermore » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:43 am

Zanchief wrote:
Reynaldo wrote:I guess the bottom line is I always felt safer with Bush as president because I know he's gonig to do SOMETHING to defend the country. It might not always be the right thing, but it's something. With someone like Gore in office after 9/11, I can't be certain he wouldn't be off doing oral with a spotted owl instead of gearing up to protect me or trying to get those responsible.


That's exactly the BS republicans tried to sell people when Gore ran, and it's the reason you're in that fucked up war.

I'm not so sure 9-11 would have even happened had Gore won (by a margin greater then could have been stolen from him), but I'm damn sure Gore would have been in Afghanistan quicker then Bush was, and he wouldn't have trumped up this whole Iraq thing.

The worst part is, Republicans are going to do the same sell job about safety in the next election and people ar going to buy it all over again.


If i am not mistaken and i will look when i have more time but didnt gore win the popular vote and the supreme court or electoral college gave him the win or am i nutz
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Postby kaharthemad » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:52 am

congress can pull funding for everything but retreat. this will give the funds for them to leave.

Isnt that what you all want? Surrender? Retreat? There you go. Pull the funding. Shit or get off the pot.


Otherwise basically all this does is tell the troops that we over here dont like what you are doing. And we dont support you. Hell ever you were in the service. You know moral is key to troop loses. you also know what this will be taken as by the general soldier over there.
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:08 am

If we really want to brighten up the troops we could just send them pounds and pounds of cocaine. I heard it helps some of us get by.
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Postby Evermore » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:24 am

kaharthemad wrote:congress can pull funding for everything but retreat. this will give the funds for them to leave.

Isnt that what you all want? Surrender? Retreat? There you go. Pull the funding. Shit or get off the pot.


Otherwise basically all this does is tell the troops that we over here dont like what you are doing. And we dont support you. Hell ever you were in the service. You know moral is key to troop loses. you also know what this will be taken as by the general soldier over there.



Kahar are we misunderstanding each other? I am not for cutting the funding off for the troops because it will affect only the troops. What I am for is preventing any new funding and any new deployments. We need to get OUT of Iraq not get more into it. Congress needs to force bush's hand. There are other ways of doing this, like limiting time between tours in a warzone or keep the military from extending tours of duty.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:25 am

Evermore wrote:If i am not mistaken and i will look when i have more time but didnt gore win the popular vote and the supreme court or electoral college gave him the win or am i nutz


Gore lost the election. He lost the electoral college, since we don't base our elections on the popular vote. Essentially, both candidates got 48% of the vote. It was a dead heat.

All the Supreme Court did was end the Florida recounts after the third time, and when the DNC was trying to solely recount democratic counties over and over. It did not hand the election off.

Was there fraud? Absolutely. All over the place, from both sides.

Our election system sucks. It's amazing that Mexico, being dirt poor can have such a GOOD election setup, and we cannot.
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Postby Evermore » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:24 pm

lyion wrote:
Evermore wrote:If i am not mistaken and i will look when i have more time but didnt gore win the popular vote and the supreme court or electoral college gave him the win or am i nutz


Gore lost the election. He lost the electoral college, since we don't base our elections on the popular vote. Essentially, both candidates got 48% of the vote. It was a dead heat.

All the Supreme Court did was end the Florida recounts after the third time, and when the DNC was trying to solely recount democratic counties over and over. It did not hand the election off.

Was there fraud? Absolutely. All over the place, from both sides.

Our election system sucks. It's amazing that Mexico, being dirt poor can have such a GOOD election setup, and we cannot.


http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm seems you are correct sir.

this is on the supreme court thingy but this guy just may be a loon himself.
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:18 pm

Still waiting for someone to post some things Bush has done that I could applaud him for, or that I'd even agree with. I'm sure not aware of anything, but I certainly don't claim omniscience, so if anyone else can come up with something, I'll be happy to acknowledge them. If you can't, then maybe I have some cause to be so rabidly anti-bush, hmmm? Hard to be positive about someone who does nothing whatsoever you like or agree with...

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Postby Harrison » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:36 pm

Holy fucking shit, now I'm a "flaming conservative"? :ugh:
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:41 pm

This is not exactly news, Fin.

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Postby Harrison » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:43 pm

You guys are more delusional than I thought.
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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:54 pm

arlos wrote:Still waiting for someone to post some things Bush has done that I could applaud him for, or that I'd even agree with. I'm sure not aware of anything, but I certainly don't claim omniscience, so if anyone else can come up with something, I'll be happy to acknowledge them. If you can't, then maybe I have some cause to be so rabidly anti-bush, hmmm? Hard to be positive about someone who does nothing whatsoever you like or agree with...

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You can dislike someone without being rabid about it you know.
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Postby Tossica » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:00 pm

Martrae wrote:You can dislike someone without being rabid about it you know.



If you are talking about your neighbors, yeah. People are passionate about politics. I mean, didn't we just overthrow and allow to be hanged a political figure that was unpopular to say the least?
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:38 pm

What, I'm not allowed to be passionate about my country, and decry someone I see as causing it seere harm in the long run? Sorry, but it's not in my nature to be apathetic or uncaring about the future ofo the country of which I'm a citizen. Maybe you are, I dunno. But as for me, I care deeply about this country, and it worries and infuriates me when I see an incompetant jackass running it into the ground.

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Postby Martrae » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:14 pm

Ok....so there's no middle ground between rabid and apathetic?

Passionate is one thing...rabid is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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Postby Tossica » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:23 pm

Martrae wrote:Ok....so there's no middle ground between rabid and apathetic?

Passionate is one thing...rabid is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.



If you felt like someone was shoving a traffic cone up your ass would you be nonchalant, middle ground, passionate or rabid about the removal of said traffic cone?
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:24 pm

I don't think I'm rabid, just passionate. I'm certainly far less extreme than some I know, or some of the stuff I see in the few MoveOn stuff I DO read, because my mother forwards it to me.

I said it before and I'll say it again: You show me stuff that Bush, or hell, the rest of the Republicans do that is something that I agree with and that fits my values, and I'll applaud them for it, like I did when they passed McCain's anti-torture amendment. You show me where the Demos do something I don't like, and I'll quite happily slam them for it, same as I'd do if anyone else did it. Actions are what I care about, not platitudes. You don't remember me slamming the Demos that voted against Net Neutrality back when that was voted on?

Again, it's just that because they weren't in power the Demos didn't have much chance to do stuff that pissed me off, so there hasn't been much opportunity to yell at them. Meanwhile, the Republicans, as they are currently constituted, seem to be diametrically opposed to things I believe in, so it seems 99% of what they do is something I disagree with. Which is why I am asking for people to point out cases where they've done stuff I WOULD agree with, like attacking Afghanistan. (though again, I disagree with HOW we did it, though I applaud DOING it)

So? Anyone have ANYTHING?

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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:03 pm

Not rabid, just set. It'd do no good to bring anything up with you. Or with Toss.

You are simply a hyper-partisan anti-Bush scream machine.
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Postby Menlaan » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:06 pm

lyion wrote:It'd do no good to bring anything up with you. Or with Toss.

You are simply a hyper-partisan anti-Bush scream machine.


Well, as a reader on the board, it seems you're backing away from an argument. Go ahead, state why you do like Bush. I'm interested in hearing it too.
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Postby Harrison » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:07 pm

This has been rehashed so many times it's stupid.

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Postby Tossica » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:09 pm

Harrison wrote:This has been rehashed so many times it's stupid.

Are you people fucking goldfish? Do you even HAVE a memory?



And you were contributing the same amount of white noise to the conversation 4 years ago.
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Postby Harrison » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:16 pm

1 Goldfish
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Postby Lyion » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:18 pm

Menlaan wrote:
lyion wrote:It'd do no good to bring anything up with you. Or with Toss.

You are simply a hyper-partisan anti-Bush scream machine.


Well, as a reader on the board, it seems you're backing away from an argument. Go ahead, state why you do like Bush. I'm interested in hearing it too.


I don't like or dislike the man. I don't know him. I agree with some of his policies and disagree with many others. I support the Iraq war because I think it'll enable real change in the Middle East.

I'd be glad to debate policy, but it's tough to debate issues when it's all partisan bickering, and personal hatred. Arlos has despised Bush since the day he walked in, solely do to his (R). He'll continue to hate and despise him and post hit pieces just like he does for Reagan and any other Republican, even those who share some of his views because it is personal.

Probably the same for others. Thats's fine, but it makes it tough to rationally discuss things when there is zero objectivity at all.

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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:21 pm

No, see, it's not solely due to his (R), not by any stretch of the imagination. You keep saying that over and over again as if somehow it would become true by repetition. You keep accusing me of it being personal, when again you know that not to be true. Nice go at the Big Lie technique, but you're not as good at it as Goebbels was. Again, as well, I find your decrying lack of objectivity amusing, when you're one of the least objective people on this board, and the one most likely to post articles and posts from utterly slanted websites, such as the National Review, etc. Go back and find 1 case where I've posted something from MoveOn, Soros, etc. You won't find one, because I never have. You certainly can't say the same, however. Who's the partisan, hmmm?

The issue is, the Republican Party as a whole has, in it's platform planks, certain things that I am dead-set against. It's hard to support a party when their entire basic ethos is things you disagree with.

Here's the 2004 republican party platform: http://www.ontheissues.org/2004_GOP_Platform.htm

Let me go through them 1 by 1:

1) Abortion. They're against it, I'm for it. Doesn't get more black and white than that. They also strictly promote abstinance, and are against sex education and free condoms. I'm far more realistic, in that I know high school kids are GOING to be fucking, so I'm all for providing free condoms and having real sex and STD education.

2) Civil rights: The only one there I can undconditionally agree with is promoting women's advancement in the military. I'm pro-gay marriage, pro-gays in the military, very anti-constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and I'm against a number of the provisions of the Patriot act, as I feel they infringe upon our personal freedoms, and, like Goldwater, I consider personal freedom to be paramount over ANY security need, period.

3) Crime: I am anti-death penalty, not on a morality basis, but due to the fact we have so many false convictions, and the thought that we might execute an innocent man is horrifying. What's the old saw? "I would rather a thousand guilty men go free than 1 innocent man hang"? If we had a perfect system of determining absolute guilt, I might change my mind, but we don't. I also feel there's better ways of deterring crime than arresting more people and building more prisons.

4) Drugs: Well, as has been discussed here many times, I am very against the War on Drugs. I consider it as misguided and pointless as Prohibition, and just as effective. ie, not at all effective at cutting off supplies of the illicit substances or preventing people from using them, but very effective at promoting organized crime. I'd much rather legalize most things and tax them, providing a net gain to the government of up to 500 billion dollars a year, if not more.

5) Education: I'm for improving public schooling, not taking everyone out from it, and am VERY against prayer in schools of any kind. Don't care which religion wants to pray, even if it's a group of pagans, it's not appropriate in public schools.

6) Energy & Oil: I'm pro-mandatory emissions controls, not necessarily pro-Kyoto, but generally so. Saving and preserving the environment is vastly more important than energy and oil companies making a few more tenths of a percent of record obscene-level profits. Spend a few billion of those profits and cut down pollution drastically.

7) Environment: It's been well-demonstrated that most industries won't do squat about pollution until forced, thus I think the fed is forced to lead the effort, not leave it to private owners.

8) Foreign Policy: I think we can all guess my opinion of the Republican-led foreign policy. I think it's been incredibly damaging to our standing in the world, and mostly completely non-effective. Whatever happened to "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick"? This administration would have it, "Yell at people, and when they don't immediately kowtow, hit them with a stick". Yes, I'm glad Libya has disarmed, but I think that would have happened regardless of the administration in power.

9) Government Reform: Judges striking things as unconstitutional are what they are SUPPOSED to do, it doesn't make them "activist judges". Judges overturning Roe v Wade after 40+ years WOULD be "activist judges". I'm also all for keeping any religious trapping out of the political arena, and yes, that means no 10 commandments, no torah, no vaidika dharma, no pentacles or statues of the green man, nothing. Likewise, the public declaration of allegiance to the nation should be free of forced declaration of belief in, and allegience to, any diety whatsoever. The original version of the pledge lacked "under god", and that was good enough for a far more religious time. Why is it such a horrid idea now? So again, lets mark this plank down as "completely disagree"

10) Gun control: More public land for hunting: dunno, would have to see some serious environmental impact statements as to what the end result would be, both on flora and terrain, as well as the local fauna (both hunted and non-hunted species). "Frivolous" gun lawsuits are what, exactly? I believe entirely in people's right to own firearms, but I don't see what's wrong with licensing, as long as you're guaranteed the license unless you're a felon. There also should be some mandatory safety training, and mandatory purchasing of child safety locks. But beyond that, you want a gun, by all means, get one.

11) I'm all for universal health care, our current system is incredibly broken and leads to incredible inequalities among our citizens. We're also one of the only 1st world western nations to NOT offer universal health care, and the ranks of the uninsured are growing rapidly daily. I'm yes for stem cell research, especialy considering the embryos they want to use are extras from fertility clinics that are going to be destroyed anyway. Might as well get some use out of those lumps of cells rather than just flush them down the drain, yes? On AIDS, we need more work on finding a cure or for treatments, and more aid for long-term care, plus governmental negotiation with the pharmaceuticals to get the costs cut. I also have no problem with assisted suicide for patients that are terminally ill. Why should someone be forced to live 3-4 months more, all of it in agonizing pain, when there's zero chance they will recover? Seems exceedingly cruel to me.

12) National Security: Well, I disagree that Bush has done much of anything to improve national security, just look at the 2005 grades for security that were given out, where most every government department got a D or an F. Of course I'm for improving security, just not at the expense of personal and civil liberties. I'm also for improving pay and benefits to soldiers, so here we have another rare point of agreement. As for missile defense, I'm against it if it would violate the ABM treaty we've signed.

13) I don't see illegal immigration as a huge bugaboo, and think that helping Mexico improve their economy to the point where people want to stay THERE rather than illegally coming HERE is a better long term plan than turning our borders into armed camps. Furthermore, did Reagan's illegal alien amnesty destroy the fabric of this nation? Didn't think so.

14) Principles and Values: Well, they don't say anything here, so I can't agree or disagree.

15) Technology: Hey, a point of agreement, I also support do-not-call and do-not-email lists. What other points they may have on this plank, I don't know, so I can't agree or disagree.

16) War & Peace: I am sure that there are terrorists seeking WMDs, but I think the likelyhood of them obtaining them is small. I also believe that you will never, ever, stamp out terrorism militarily, period, any more than the Romans were able to stamp out Christianity militarily. It is impossible to stamp out a set of beliefs at the point of a sword, period. Suggesting it is possible is naiive at best, deluded at worst. I feel Iraq has made us less safe from terror, not more safe. I was FOR Afghanistan, but we fucked up HOW we did it, and now the Taliban controls more and more of the country, the place is back to being the single biggest world supplier of Opium poppies, and we never caught a single one of the senior taliban or al-qaida leadership when we invaded. We are still safer from going there, yes, but we could have been vastly more safer, if we'd done it RIGHT, and not been distracted by Iraq.

17) I feel that Republican policies have increased the amount of poverty in the nation, not decreased it. I am also dead-set against government grants of money being in any way faith-based, because I feel the wall between church and state should be involate. Getting people off welfare is all well and good, as long as there's real jobs to move into. Also, how can you move a single mother off welfare if there's no one to care for her child or children? There's no way in hell a parent of even 1 kid working minimum wage can pay for day care, none, even with the upcoming increases to minimum wage that the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail (gee, another point of disagreement).


OK, so, there's the Republican Platform of 2004. Just about nothing on there that I agree with. Every single Republican political candidate, by virtue of being in the party, agrees that those are the issues they will try and advance, and how they will advance them. Why, exactly, should I support people who are actively working to promote things I disagree with so strongly? Can someone explain that to me?

Yes, I am sure there are some Republicans who may hold similar views to mine. When they act on them, I'll give them credit for it, like those that voted with the Democrats in the recent (albeit toothless) non-binding resolution. But, so long as they support that platform, by being in the party and not working to CHANGE the platform, I can never give them my full support, as they have at least tacitly dedicated their time in office to achieving a large number of things I consider negative at best, reprehensible at worst.

So, once more I ask for those who were complaining I never say anything good about Bush: What has he done that I SHOULD be applauding him for? I'm not aware of a damn thing he's done for quite some time (if ever) that is in accordance with my beliefs and values, so why should I applaud him when he hasn't done anything I liked? You list me some things he's done I DO like, I'll happily applaud him for them. Until then, my opinion of the man and his policies is unchanged: If any president other than Nixon has deserved impeachment, Bush certainly heads the list.

-Arlos
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Postby Lueyen » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:51 pm

sorry Arlos was kinda busy today so I didn't get a chance to respond with at least a couple of Executive orders you might look favorably upon.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070124-2.html

Government taking a lead with environmental concerns. It may not go as far as you would like, but I must admit I was surprised that you aren't in favor of Kyoto.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/06/20060623-10.html

As a side note perhaps my strongest issue I take with Bush is rooted in the phrase "jobs Americans won't do". I feel it's a half truth, and it pisses me off whenever he says it (which has been at least a few times). The other part of the statement in my mind is "for menial wages".

If one were to take the substantial portion of income from these jobs that is spent in the Mexican economy and translated that value to a comparable US value and offered that as the pay rate for the job (plus the portion spent here) Americans would have no problem doing said jobs.

Consider that a few years ago myself and two co-workers ate at a nice restaurant in Mexico for around 25 dollars. Comparable in the US would likely have been around 50-75. I gaurantee if you offered somewhere between double and triple the under the table wages that are paid Americans would happily go to work for those wages.
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Postby Arlos » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:46 pm

Well, I AM for Kyoto, in a general sense, but I am not fixated on it as the ONLY way of going about doing things, if that makes any sense. Results are what matter, and if it takes signing Kyoto to achieve them at a pace rapid enough for my concerns, then that's what we should do, but if we can do it without signing Kyoto, then that would be OK as well. My problem lies in that, last I checked anyway, we're not even APPROACHING the speed of reduction mandated by Kyoto, much less exceeding it, which is what I would prefer. I have 0 sympathy for industries reporting record profits into the 10s of billions claiming that they can't "afford" to institute pollution controls. It'd be like Warren Buffet saying he eats at McDonalds because he can't afford Denny's.

The first executive order is nice, and sure, I'm happy that they're doing SOMETHING, but does it balance the harm wrought on the environment under Bush's tenure? My Aunt was a regional director for the EPA (as high a ranking as you can get as a government employee without being a political apointee. Well above the GS ranks, to the top of the "Senior Leadership Corps" ranks, I believe the term was), and had been in the agency since the early 70s. I have gotten plenty of stories from her about policy changes, cuts, etc. instituted by Bush or one of his appointees that have been detrimental either to the environment or to the EPA being able to uphold environmental law, because they weren't given the funding necessary to pursue matters. Add such things in with the Orwellian reverse-named initiatives like the "Clean Skies" initiative, which actually removed or relaxed many atmospheric pollution controls, and you'll forgive me if I take a small positive sign such as that EO with several metric tons of salt.

Taking steps to preserve private property from eminent domain from the federal government if it would be used to go to private enterprise is nice, and I'd love to see Congress enact that as a national law. So sure, that's a nice measure.

But these are 2 small executive orders, one of which is outweighed by several years worth of work to the contrary, and when weighed against all the harm and damage he has done.... If you want me to think remotely positive of the man or his administration, you'll have to point me to major issues or suchlike that I could support, not a couple small of-the-cuff orders.

Oh, and as for illegal immigration: So long as you have 1 country with serious poverty, and right next door another country where people can make several times the income for the same work, it's obvious you're going to have population migration from the poorer to the richer, it's inevitable. All the walls, military, etc. in the world won't stop that migration from happening, it will just slow it down at best, no matter how draconian the measures you institute. (and those measures will have their own costs, believe me, including severe non-monetary costs, I assure you). The only way to solve it long term is to work with the poor country to help it improve its economy to the point where it's a viable option economically for it's people to stay home.

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