RIP OSAMA BIN LADEN

[Lyion]

Yet another example of Canadians just not getting it. Of course you don't. You've never had to stand up for yourselves. That country down south of you has been doing it for you all of these years.

First, it's not Canadian, it's more a bleeding heart/liberal orthodoxy that has disdain for any sort of nationalist pride. There's nothing wrong with this, and it's certainly more common with our northern neighbors and their culture. There certainly is danger to too much nationalism, as we learned too well in the early part of the 20th century.

I was reading Salon and came across this which I think represents Zan's viewpoints more succinctly. This guy was also appalled at the 'celebrations'.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... /bin_laden

“Whenever America uses violence in a way that makes its citizens cheer, beam with nationalistic pride, and rally around their leader, more violence is typically guaranteed. Futile decade-long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may temporarily dampen the nationalistic enthusiasm for war, but two shots to the head of Osama bin Laden — and the We are Great and Good proclamations it engenders — can easily rejuvenate that war love. . . . Americans are marching in the street celebrating with a sense of national pride. When is the last time that happened? It seems telling that hunting someone down and killing them is one of the few things that still produce these feelings of nationalistic unity.”

The problem with being 'appalled' at us being happy and celebrating 'murder and death' is that Bin Laden is not just some random dude, but the guy who funded, controlled, and inspired legions of global terrorists that killed thousands of innocent Americans.

This is not about 'love of war', but about the defeat of evil.

Dislike national unity and pride, but empathize with those who celebrate in our American way that fact.

[Zanchief]

First, it's not Canadian, it's more a bleeding heart/liberal orthodoxy that has disdain for any sort of nationalist pride.

Your good book condemns pride too, Lyion. Or are things like the seven deadly sins not as important as homosexuality to the modern religious conservative. I'll happily bleed all over that type of hypocrisy. Feel free to cheer my bleeding along with the rest of the sadists you comport with.

*I've tried to remain more or less civil to you, so before you pull the ad hominem card on me feel free to reread your passive aggressive assholiness that's been on display since your newest return.

[Harrison]

No need to turn this into a me VS you thing. This is human behaviour I'm deriding, not American behaviour.

You feel justified in your violence, just as they feel justified in there’s. To me there is only one solution. No violence at all. They celebrate the deaths on 9-11. You celebrate the death of their leader. You derided their act, not only because of the heinousness of the act, but because of the savagery of cheering death. Now when the situation reversed you're happy to have your cake and eat it too.

You're really going to equate cheering of the death of a mass murderer to the cheering of the deaths of peaceful civilians?

Wow. Just fucking wow.

[Lyion]

You condemn and generalize anyone who is a theist for being judgmental, then turn around and judgmentally call them sadists and refuse to even discuss any different point of view.

I suggest reading more Robert Frost, perhaps.

[Zanchief]

No need to turn this into a me VS you thing. This is human behaviour I'm deriding, not American behaviour.

You feel justified in your violence, just as they feel justified in there’s. To me there is only one solution. No violence at all. They celebrate the deaths on 9-11. You celebrate the death of their leader. You derided their act, not only because of the heinousness of the act, but because of the savagery of cheering death. Now when the situation reversed you're happy to have your cake and eat it too.

You're really going to equate cheering of the death of a mass murderer to the cheering of the deaths of peaceful civilians?

Wow. Just fucking wow.

I equated cheering for death with cheering for death, yes. They seem pretty similar to me, what with them actually being the same.

[Harrison]

If you boil everything down like that, you have massive problems beyond your imaginary "enlightenment".

You aren't better than anyone for your ridiculous views on pacifism or any number of things that go against natural human emotion.

You're delusional.

[Zanchief]

You condemn and generalize anyone who is a theist for being judgmental, then turn around and judgmentally call them sadists and refuse to even discuss any different point of view.

That sentence is about 20 words long and you make about three false assumptions. I'll happily discuss any different point of view, and do so all the time. Would you like to attempt basic civility for once and give it a shot?

[Zanchief]

You aren't better than anyone for your ridiculous views on pacifism or any number of things that go against natural human emotion.

Who said I was better then anyone? I'm just pointing out the obvious. People on this board more so then any other board I go on, are so concerned with their perceived toughness and willingness to destroy their enemies under their boot. I'm just trying to point out the fallacious nature of that kind of reasoning, either in this scenario, or the dozens of others that constantly turn up.

You think that my distance from this issue makes me less able to comment on it. Removing the emotional irrationalism makes me better able to comment on it.

If you just want your pound of flesh, have at it and I'll just mosey on into another thread.

[Lyion]

While you are busy calling Americans whom you disagree with Sadists, perhaps the basic civility charge should be a two way street there, Governor.

Geez, do you bother to read your own quotes?

[Zanchief]

While you are busy calling Americans whom you disagree with Sadists, perhaps the basic civility charge should be a two way street there, Governor.

Geez, do you bother to read your own quotes?

Why do you continue to make this an issue of nationalism? I never said this was an American issue, you did.

Cheering the death of a person is sadism.

[Tikker]

So today the story of how bin laden was killed has changed a bit. Also now his wife got pwned, he wasn't armed and got pwned while sleeping

[Spazz]

Im still ok with that.

[Lyion]

I've read three changing stories about the assault.

Somehow I doubt the dude was sleeping while there were helicopters overhead and gunfights in his compound. They have the video of the assault. Somehow via a new wikileaks or from the current administration I'm sure it'll get out.

It doesn't matter to me how the man was killed, just that he's dead. He had it far easier than the poor people who had to jump out of the World Trade Center.

[Spazz]

It doesn't matter to me how the man was killed, just that he's dead. He had it far easier than the poor people who had to jump out of the World Trade Center.

Why you such a blood thirsty american lyion ?????

[Markarado]

Would have prefered we caught him alive? It would have cost millions of dollars to hang him. In the end he would be dead anyways. I prefer the cheap way.

They claim they shot his wife in the leg. I'd have liked to see a big ass bomb drop on that city after we left. We know for almost certainty that the military in the city was hiding him. He didn't even have guards. So the question now is what to do about Pakistan? I'd say leave them to fend for themselves (India would step in pretty quickly if we stop protectin them).

[brinstar]

I'd have liked to see a big ass bomb drop on that city after we left.

fuck you, you incredulously vile expatriate piece of stupid rancid shit. how is this sentence IN ANY WAY different from the actions of bin Laden and his commanders?

[Tuggan]

"Markarado"

don't know what this "we" shit is. next round is probably comin from your neck of the woods.

[Spazz]

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[Harrison]

I feel this needed to be repeated.

It's shitty that we live in a world where the ideals of a few can cause such misery to many, but at least SOME justice has been dealt for once. It's not the celebration of death as much as it is the celebration of justice, which is a rarity.

[Jay]

This is an issue of intent. Are we celebrating death or celebrating the defeat of that which caused death? You can't just lump everyone together and say "you guys are doing this". It's different for everyone. While there are more sensible people who feel that Osama's death represents a triumph over evil, there're also the "America Fuck Yeah" types that unrolled the Marlboro reds from their shirt sleeves and smoked one standing next to their Chevy pickup because the king of the towel heads got merc'd. For better or for worse, be it death or that he got safely and painlessly sucked into an interdimensional portal never to return, I think everyone here can safely say that we're glad he's gone.

My concern though is that his death will galvanize his people and compel them to act again and SOON. 9/11 brought us together. Osama's death can have the same affect too to their side.

As for me, I can't say that there wasn't some "sadistic" side of me that didn't want him to die for what he's done, but my main feeling is that this is a clear sign that we're doing our job in the war against terror. I'm glad we're doing what we can to defend ourselves and the world, but my excitement isn't exactly through the roof since the next Osama Bin Laden is right around the corner ready to take over I'm sure. Osama's death to me isn't the end of anything but moreso a "notice" to any would be Osama's that his job comes at a price.

[Lyion]

So the question now is what to do about Pakistan? I'd say leave them to fend for themselves (India would step in pretty quickly if we stop protectin them).

Well, the issue with Pakistan is they are helping us try and stabilize Afghanistan. They also have nuclear weapons. Nukes in proximity to many illiterate masses influenced by the Taliban are generally something we want to tread carefully around.

India cannot handle the Muslims in their own country. They really want nothing to do with Pakistan, and since both countries have nuclear weapons we'd prefer they keep their distance.

Regardless of if the Pakistani military or intelligence were hiding him there and in the know, there is nothing we can do about it now. It's the beauty of diplomacy.

Jay, a desire for justice is not sadism. Satisfaction for the ending of evil in no way makes one into Hannibal Lecter, regardless of how some bleeding hearts cry wolf.

There will not be another Osama Bin Laden, so no fears there. Osama was the face of Al Qaeda and 9/11 for both sides. His death is most certainly relevant and meaningful. The Middle East is inflamed in a desire to remove dictators and we should move on from Al Qaeda and support their desire for democracy. This is a very good time for this event to occur because there are bigger fish to fry in the Middle East.

[Zanchief]

Jay, a desire for justice is not sadism. Satisfaction for the ending of evil in no way makes one into Hannibal Lecter, regardless of how some bleeding hearts cry wolf.

As is the case with just about everything you say, you don't know what "cry wolf" means.

[Lyion]

Hey, a snappy self serving tunnel vision comeback with the worldview of a snail. A re-occuring theme.

For an encore let's discuss how great conservative policies are for countries and how socialism will destroy the universe. Four more years!

If you keep being self righteous I'll have to bring Curling into the discussion.

[Zanchief]

a snappy self serving tunnel vision comeback with the worldview of a snail.

I'm not sure you should be accusing other people of limited world view when you don't even know what a very common children's allegorical fable means.

[Lyion]

No, allegorical fables are your specialty. I tend to deal in reality. Fortunately, so do Canadian voters and American Seal teams.

My post and meaning were pretty clear, even if you completely missed it. Next time add Sadist, retribution, and death lovers to your posts for added bleeding heart clarity.