Cha Cha Cha Changes...

[Donnel]

Jeez, you people, you all claim to have seen Princess Bride, but it gives the perfect reasoning of all:

You only think I guessed wrong - that's what's so funny. I switched glasses when your back was turned. Ha-ha, you fool. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when *death* is on the line.". Hahahahahah.
[Vizzini falls over dead]

[Tuggan]

all ive gathered from the conservative arguments is its OK to pick on the bitches, just dont pick a fight that might get messy. ha.. and you all call the liberals the sissys.

[xaoshaen]

all ive gathered from the conservative arguments is its OK to pick on the bitches, just dont pick a fight that might get messy. ha.. and you all call the liberals the sissys.

No, we mostly call them comprehension-challenged.

[xaoshaen]

haha, yeah. thats exactly what Iraq did.

fucking tosser

Iraq clearly demonstrated hostile intentions towards the US.

They did?


Excluding the Gulf War, or any incident when we werent literally taunting them, what did I miss?

Apparently, the last 10 years of history in the Middle East.

[xaoshaen]

Yes, the spreading wing of Freedom in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Possibly Syria, and other countries in a regious that is a hotspot for terrorism and national security concerns is a travesty. What a complete shame. What utter bullshit.

Speading freedom as we see it. What would happen if say China had done what we did and then imposed a communist gov't. Would we be thinking how great it was, how necessary it was?

Yeah, because we forced a government on the Iraqi people. We didn't give them elections or anything like that.

[xaoshaen]

Jr. wanted to go into Iraq BEFORE he was ever sworn in as President. He USED 911 as an excuse, why is that so hard to see and understand? Iraq posed NO imminent threat to the US at the time of the attacks, nor did they pose any imminent threat directly before OR after the attacks either.

Again, I point out that Iraq has repeatedly demonstrated hostile intentions towards the U.S. If the events of 11 Sep have taught us anything, it should be that an enemy who wants to hurt us, can. Go ahead, prove that Hussein had reformed, become a pacifist who would never order his troops to attack Americans...

The war was / is a sham, period. Whatever the real motivations of Dubya, you can bet your NT ass it had LITTLE to do with “freedom for the Iraqi people” or “security for the US.”

Right. Because George Bush unilaterally declared war, mobilized troops, and invaded Iraq. It's not like Congress or the JCS had anything to do with it.

I participated in and was in full support of Desert Storm. I believe we had the right intentions (although I am sure there was an underlying agenda we [the public] weren't aware of). Nonetheless, Desert Storm had a tangible and very believable purpose.

As opposed to implementing democracy in the Middle East, stabilizing the region, and removing a threat to our national security?

As dumb as Dubya clearly is, I am absolutely surprised that reasonably intelligent people are falling for his lines of bullshit.

I wouldn't trust any politician's line of bullshit. I tend to listen to the people actually prosecuting the war.

The only real winners in this mess are Americas corporations. Why is that so hard to see? Why is it so hard to draw the conclusion that Bush's intentions have little to do with American security?

I guess that would depend on whether you view the spread of democracy and the potential stabilization of the Middle East as wins. I can tell you that many, many Iraqi citizens are sure happy about the results.

Are we supposed to sit back now and say, “well yeah we were lied to, we don't really believe Bush went into Iraq for the right reasons, but hell, we're there now... so let's just forget the past and move forward?” Fuck that. He needs to be thoroughly investigated and impeached. But, THAT will never happen because the country has its head so far up it's “reality TV watching, AOL using asses” it doesn't see the problem.

Bush acted like a politician? Shocking! Impeachment is the only answer! It's not like Franklin Roosevelt ever misinformed the public about his intentions... or Bill Clinton lied under oath...

[Diekan]

Diekan wrote:
Jr. wanted to go into Iraq BEFORE he was ever sworn in as President. He USED 911 as an excuse, why is that so hard to see and understand? Iraq posed NO imminent threat to the US at the time of the attacks, nor did they pose any imminent threat directly before OR after the attacks either.


Again, I point out that Iraq has repeatedly demonstrated hostile intentions towards the U.S. If the events of 11 Sep have taught us anything, it should be that an enemy who wants to hurt us, can. Go ahead, prove that Hussein had reformed, become a pacifist who would never order his troops to attack Americans...

So when are we going into the other 50 countries that have demonstrated hostile intentions toward us? That's not a valid argument. 911 wasn't perpetrated by Hussein / Iraq. According the 911 Commission, Iraq had nothing to do with 911. Secondly, what has Iraq “done” in the past 13 years to pose a direct threat to the US? Don't get me wrong I am glad Saddam is out of power. I hope we gets put to death for all that he was done, but let's be real here. We did not go into Iraq for the right reasons, period.

Quote:

The war was / is a sham, period. Whatever the real motivations of Dubya, you can bet your NT ass it had LITTLE to do with “freedom for the Iraqi people” or “security for the US.”


Right. Because George Bush unilaterally declared war, mobilized troops, and invaded Iraq. It's not like Congress or the JCS had anything to do with it.

The president can make war for what... 60 days without the approval of congress? He had the backing of a GOP dominated House and Senate at the time. “Their boy” was in the White House... would you have expected any other out come than what we saw?

Quote:

I participated in and was in full support of Desert Storm. I believe we had the right intentions (although I am sure there was an underlying agenda we [the public] weren't aware of). Nonetheless, Desert Storm had a tangible and very believable purpose.


As opposed to implementing democracy in the Middle East, stabilizing the region, and removing a threat to our national security?

Stability? Hmm funny, I've yet to see this... I'm still hearing about daily car bombings, assassination attempts on key Iraqi leaders... growing tensions between the US and Syria and Iran. So, where's this stability? That region has been volatile and unstable for a thousand years, do you really think that's all going to go away with one quick swoop of the American sword?

Quote:

As dumb as Dubya clearly is, I am absolutely surprised that reasonably intelligent people are falling for his lines of bullshit.


I wouldn't trust any politician's line of bullshit. I tend to listen to the people actually prosecuting the war.

I can agree with this.

Quote:

Are we supposed to sit back now and say, “well yeah we were lied to, we don't really believe Bush went into Iraq for the right reasons, but hell, we're there now... so let's just forget the past and move forward?” Fuck that. He needs to be thoroughly investigated and impeached. But, THAT will never happen because the country has its head so far up it's “reality TV watching, AOL using asses” it doesn't see the problem.


Bush acted like a politician? Shocking! Impeachment is the only answer! It's not like Franklin Roosevelt ever misinformed the public about his intentions... or Bill Clinton lied under oath...

Clinton was impeached on December 19, 1998 by the House of Representatives on grounds of perjury to a grand jury (by a 228-206 vote) and obstruction of justice (by a 221-212 vote), becoming only the second U.S. President to be impeached (the previous one being Andrew Johnson in 1868). I guess going to war under the guise of lies and blatant deceit isn't nearly as bad as getting a blow job.

[Narrock]

Clinton sucks.

[Diabolik]

History shows that Monica was the one that sucked.

[Eziekial]

[Ironfang]

I agree with him. Far too much liberal control on what we do, as it has to be good, it is "liberal".

Korea will not be invaded for one reason, nukes. Yes, the US would win, and yes that nut would use nukes in the war. America does not want a million dead soldiers for no useful purpose.

The main reason Iraq got jumped was not WoMD, it was "Wag the Dog". "W" was getting waxed in the polls and wanted a fast win like his father had, all the while justifying it with some hooey about Iraq attacking the USA. What a crock of shit. Iraq was never a real threat to the USA.

The entire war on terrorism has been one set of lies after another. If the US really wanted to clean out the terrorists, they would have to invade another 30 countries to get rid of the larger groups. That would lead to more anti-US terrorism, not the destruction of the terrorists.

One point I strongly agree with is the total lack of US involvement in places like Uzbekistan and Darfur. There are far too many places in the world where mass death is occuring with no direct involvement of the larger, richer world powers (Europe, Russia, USA, China). Hell in some cases it is the world powers committing the crimes..

[Lyion]

Korea will not be invaded for one reason, nukes. Yes, the US would win, and yes that nut would use nukes in the war. America does not want a million dead soldiers for no useful purpose.

Again, Korea is China's pawn. China IS a superpower. We are working hard through diplomacy to promote freedom there, and despite the proper media coverage, The Kims will always do what China tells them. It is WHY we're not doing Bilateral talks with North Korea, like Kerry foolishly recommended

The main reason Iraq got jumped was not WoMD, it was "Wag the Dog". "W" was getting waxed in the polls and wanted a fast win like his father had, all the while justifying it with some hooey about Iraq attacking the USA. What a crock of shit. Iraq was never a real threat to the USA.

Except your logic is hugely flawed. Despite a perfect Gulf War 1, Bush Sr lost in the election. This Gulf war was fought for security reasons and for future goals of stability for both the U.S. and the Middle East. Given the Tidal Wave of Freedom occuring in the Middle East and overall good change it's amazing anyone of intelligence could say such crazy things, unless they are akin to Arlos and purely tow the DNC line.

The entire war on terrorism has been one set of lies after another. If the US really wanted to clean out the terrorists, they would have to invade another 30 countries to get rid of the larger groups. That would lead to more anti-US terrorism, not the destruction of the terrorists.

Except the facts and history of what we've done completely invalidate this paragraph
We are fighting the Terrorists in 30+ Countries and have wiped out much of their infrastructure. In case you haven't noticed, we've had operations in Afghanistan, Saudi, Pakistan, Israel, Iran, and even in France against Al Qaeda.

You might want to actually decipher through the DNC propaganda and see what's really going on.

Unless you are suggesting we ignore countries soveriegnty and just send in our troops all over the world, which would not be surprising given the complete over the top quotes you've made.

One point I strongly agree with is the total lack of US involvement in places like Uzbekistan and Darfur. There are far too many places in the world where mass death is occuring with no direct involvement of the larger, richer world powers (Europe, Russia, USA, China). Hell in some cases it is the world powers committing the crimes..

We can't in Uzbekistan. Go read Ganzo's posts. We should in Darfur, but I think too many have bad memories of Somalia and the nightmare we encountered there when trying to 'do the right thing' in Africa.

[Zanchief]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

[Eziekial]

I think so, Zanchief. But few people in this world would vote to elect to a political candidate that offered to "let the chips fall where they may".

[Tossica]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

[Themosticles]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

The other side of the coin is there are obviously many, many people who would embrace democracy if given the chance to do so.

[Zanchief]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

The other side of the coin is there are obviously many, many people who would embrace democracy if given the chance to do so.

That's a pretty big assumption.

[Themosticles]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

The other side of the coin is there are obviously many, many people who would embrace democracy if given the chance to do so.

That's a pretty big assumption.

Or so you assume.

[xaoshaen]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

Yeah, it's not like the Iraqi people are being given a chance to establish their own political system or anything. The funny thing about democracy is that you literally can't force it on a nation. The instant the populace decides they don't want a democratic government, it's gone.

[Zanchief]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

Yeah, it's not like the Iraqi people are being given a chance to establish their own political system or anything. The funny thing about democracy is that you literally can't force it on a nation. The instant the populace decides they don't want a democratic government, it's gone.

They do angry mobs like no one I have ever seen. IF they wanted to overthrow Sudam they probably could have. There's a good chance we'll get a front row seat the the reverse though.

[xaoshaen]

They do angry mobs like no one I have ever seen. IF they wanted to overthrow Sudam they probably could have. There's a good chance we'll get a front row seat the the reverse though.

I think that the days of angry mobs confronting state-controlled military forces are over. Given a freedom from moral restraint, it's just too easy for a handful of trained combatants to butcher pissed off civilians. It's entirely possible that democracy won't last in Iraq, but populaces have proven reluctant to surrender their say in government once they've obtained it.

[Zanchief]

Those angry mobs are doing a pretty good job right now with American "military forces".

But we can all hope things work out, as much of a long shot as I think it is.

[Eziekial]

Key point = moral restraint.

[Gidan]

Isn't forcing democracy on someone kinda missing the point?

This is the fundamental point that has been missed by all of the people that support this war.

Yeah, it's not like the Iraqi people are being given a chance to establish their own political system or anything. The funny thing about democracy is that you literally can't force it on a nation. The instant the populace decides they don't want a democratic government, it's gone.

A democratic government can be forced on people, its done by military force. Its hard for the people of Iraq to choose a gov't for themselves when you have the US military sitting their watching.

We more or less went in, removed their leader and said. Its time for you to pick a govn't, your choice is democracy. We will be here to make sure you do it right and help you to keep those who appose it or our being here at bay.

I am sure there are many people in Iraq who are for it, however I would be willing to be there are many against it that dont say a thing out of fear of what we will do.

The US has forced a gov't on Iraq one way or another.

[Eziekial]

Didn't everyone see Ganzo's joke about Adam and Eve about this?