Southern Baptist Churches propose exit from public schools

[Narrock]

You have a lot of good points. Its a shame you feel the need to Mindia threads, versus actually objectively discussing them.

Shutup Lyion. You're comments are dull and unnecessary.

[Tikker]

You have a lot of good points. Its a shame you feel the need to Mindia threads, versus actually objectively discussing them.

Shutup Lyion. You're comments are dull and unnecessary.

and this one you just posted was amazingly interesting and totally necessary





ps, I also see the irony in pointing out dull uninteresting commentary with some of my own~

[Narrock]

Is Jesus God? If the answer is yes, then we need to ask, Is the Muslim God Jesus? If Jesus is not the God of the Islam religion, then are Muslims worshipping the same God that we, as Christians, are?

less than 1/6 of the world believes jesus=god

from a christian point of view, you're definitely not going to agree

think about this then

Christ was born a jew, and recognized the jews god as God
so christians believe in the same God as the Jews, yet the jews do not believe christ was God

Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet
Mohammed was also a prophet

Islam's God, Judaism's God, and Christianity's God is one and the same

Well, we're not going to be able to come to an agreement on this.

[Narrock]

You have a lot of good points. Its a shame you feel the need to Mindia threads, versus actually objectively discussing them.

Shutup Lyion. You're comments are dull and unnecessary.

and this one you just posted was amazingly interesting and totally necessary





ps, I also see the irony in pointing out dull uninteresting commentary with some of my own~

That's like the 3rd time this week he's made a comment about me in that regard. What do you propose I do when reading that kind of nonsense? Just ignore it? Prove him wrong? (which I've already done) Come back with a snappy retort?

[Tikker]

you have mellowed in your old age

[Narrock]

Hey I have 2 more months before I turn 40!

[Martrae]

I would love to home school my daughter, though I think my own knowlege would be significantly lacking.

Lets say your a gifted person when it comes to literature, writing and such but your just avg in math. How do you teach Calculus to your kid? Do you hold them back because of your lack of knowlege? I would say as far as match and science go, I would do great teaching high school, hell I could probably get away with college math, but I would have problems with elementry math. I would literally have to go back and reteach myself basic algebra because I havn't used it since I was in what 9th grade. Just sit back and image me trying to teach my child how to spell!!!!! My reading comprention sucks, how would I teach them anything on the level of english.

I guess my question is, what do you do when they are beyond your ability to teach them? Do you throw them to the wolves of public school? Find some nice private school? What will it be like for them to goto college. Will college actually be their first time knowing what a classroom looks like? Will they be lost in the shuffle in a class of 30? How about a class of 400? They are growing up in a class of what 1,2 or 3?

In the end, are you really helping them or hurting them? Do the benefits of the better education out weigh the negative side effects?

Most homeschool programs are written so a monkey could teach them. There are MANY excellent high school level math and science programs out there. But, if you are not comfortable at teaching a subject some states allow you to hire tutors or your child could take one class at the public school or even take some classes at a local college.

There are also homeschool co-ops where many families get together and do classes together. Generally each family agrees to teach or help teach one subject to all the kids. Dependent on the co-op you could have everything from art to chemistry classes for your kids.

[Gidan]

Not sure if homeschool programs a monkey could teach is a good thing or not. Sure its great that you can teach a subject beyond you understanding, but what do you do when the student asks a question that is off the program your using? Will you have a good enough understanding to explain it? I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted my step mother trying to teach my brother chemistry. Sure she could read and repeat but she wouldn't have had the understanding to truely teach it.

As for co-op's, why not just enroll in a private school?

[Tikker]

Not sure if homeschool programs a monkey could teach is a good thing or not. Sure its great that you can teach a subject beyond you understanding, but what do you do when the student asks a question that is off the program your using?

that's pretty much why I'm not a fan of homeschooling
although, being able to look up everything almost instantly via the internet, it solves a lot of the problems

[Gidan]

Not sure what alot of high schools teach but lets take this.

In HS I took astronomy and physics. Now anyone can look online to get a definition of redshift and blueshift, but without a good understanding of them, could they really teach what they were? Hell if you really didn't know what you were teaching and just tried to look it up, you would probably be endlessly looking up words within the definition and words within those and so on. By the time you understood it well enough to try and explain it, you would probably have forgotten what you were looking up to begin with.

The internet can tell you alot, but it cant make you understand it.

[Narrock]

Astronomy and Physics rawk. You can't really have a good lab in your house though. I know they have chemistry kits and stuff, but not like you get in high school and college obviously. I guess for astronomy you can shell out some BIG $$$ for a nice MEAD telescope or something.

[Martrae]

Co-ops don't cost tuition (they may have minor fees for supplies, though) and if they are holding a class you don't like you can just not put your child(ren) in it.

As far as monkeys teaching, I meant that programs are presented in a way that an average person can understand and teach, not that they were easy or lacking in any way.

Besides, there is also no shame in telling your child you don't know an answer and then finding out together.

[Tikker]

Co-ops don't cost tuition (they may have minor fees for supplies, though) and if they are holding a class you don't like you can just not put your child(ren) in it.

As far as monkeys teaching, I meant that programs are presented in a way that an average person can understand and teach, not that they were easy or lacking in any way.

Besides, there is also no shame in telling your child you don't know an answer and then finding out together.

I guess the point is though, what makes you qualified to teach? (ie, not you martrae, but the average home schoolin parent?)


actually, people should have to pass a test and be qualified to have kids first

[Arlos]

This means the bright kids that might have excelled are stuck doing busywork or sitting in boredom while the teacher goes over for the 16th time what 1+1 is. The intelligent ones will start acting up and creating games to pass the time, which leads to the teacher freaking out and complaining they have no attention span and must be put on Ritalin.

This is by no means always true. Some places, sure. I know it was in Kansas, as I was the bored-off-his-ass kid and my parents got calls about me being a "discipline problem" after we moved there when I was halfway through 2nd grade. On the other hand, in Phoenix, AZ where we'd just come from, all of the brighter kids were put in classes that let them learn at their own pace, and teachers were just there to help out as necessary. There wasn't even "lecture" in the typical sense in a lot of cases. By that point halfway through 2nd grade, I'd already finished the reading curriculum for up through the end of 6th grade, and they were developing an individual lesson plan to handle me after that, as I'd finished all of the curricula they had.

Around here in CA they had a pretty good gifted program too. 5th graders were bussed to the local middle school and were taught introductory BASIC programming. (and this is in 1980 mind you, well before personal computers took off). All through middle school I took several optional advanced classes in a number of subjects, and in high school, they offered a complete suite of AP classes, and 3 rankings of students below that for all grade levels. (AP --> College Prep --> Basic Curriculum --> Remedial) So, don't try and claim that your statement is a universal condition, because it is far from it. You just happen to be unfortunate enough to live in an area with a school system similar to the one I had in Kansas, and for that, you most assuredly have my condolences.

Now, on Islam vs Christianity: As far as muslims are concerned, they are worshipping the same God as christians and the Jews. They consider the Torah, the Bible and the Koran to basically be the same book. It's just that the Jewish and Christian versions have been corrupted from the original, and the Koran is the original, as revealed to Muhammed who wrote down the divine revalations given unto him by God himself. That's why they refer to Christians and Jews as "Brothers of the Book"; because as far as they're concerned, Christians and Jews are close to being right, they're just following the wrong version of the book.

Oh, and Mindia: Look up the phrase "The Tyrrany of the Majority" in relation to the intents of the Founding Fathers, if you want to know why the Constitution was set up such that the US is NOT a "Christian Nation" even though a majority of residents happen to be Christian. Beyond that, places like schools are supposed to be all-inclusive, where no student is marginalized by default. If schools pushed christianity, any student that ISN'T christian would absolutely be marginalized, and that is entirely unfair.

This concepts extends to government as well, by the way. How would you feel if your area had a high concentration of Muslims and they voted in Sharia law within your county? By law, you'd now have to abide by the strictures of the Muslim religion. I mean, given the hypothetical situation, they'd be a majority in the county, so they should get to decide, according to you, correct? You wouldn't like it very much though, I'm guessing? Fortunately, the separation of church and state found within the Bill of Rights prevents that from ever happening. But that same stricture is why you can't vote in Christian morality as law, despite having a majority of christians.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

When I went to school there were 2 'tracks' the kids went thru. The smarter kids were taught advanced subjects while the schools made sure the slower kids could read and do basic math. I'm talking during the elementary school level (grades K-6).

Suddenly, instead of making sure everyone was taught at their level they decided that it was messing with kids self-esteem to be in the slower class so they dumbed everything down and put everyone in the same class.

After about 10 years of that they decided to institute the 'gifted' program. It's a half-assed attempt at the old track system without being nearly as comprehensive. Most gifted programs only cover a couple subjects. But by saying the kids in it are gifted they get around saying some of the other kids are dumb as dirt and therefore bypass the whole self-esteem issue.

Basically, no one knows the 'right' way to teach. Schools, teachers, studies, etc are ALWAYS coming up with 'the best way to teach x,y,z(tm)' and it changes all the time to fit in with the latest theory.

[Harrison]

Fuck kids' feelings, that fucked-up PC bullshit needs to go.

Life is not fair.

Learn it early and stop being a pussy.

[Yamori]

Tikker wrote:

for what it's worth, muslims and christians believe in the same god

Where do you get your info? I'm sure glad we can turn to you for religious facts, eh Tikker? Here's a good explanation:

"The muslim's god is Allah from whom both good and evil emanate, and to them Jesus was a prophet, although not as great as Muhammad. muslims are expected to believe in the Articles of Faith and observe the Pillars of Faith. Those who follow and obey Allah and the prophet Muhammad will eventually be rewarded by going to Paradise, a place of pleasure.

There are many differences between Islam and Christianity. Their teachings are in conflict. For the Christian, God is holy and cannot do anything sinful or evil. As for Jesus Christ, He was and still is God and faith in Him is the only way to heaven, not externally obeying a list of dos and don'ts. Unlike the muslim's view of life after death, the Christian's idea of heaven is eternity with a holy God, not a place where inhabitants enjoy the sinful pleasures they denied as human beings.

Do Muslims Worship the Same God as Christians?

In order to find the answer, let's begin by asking ourselves a few very important introductory questions.

Is Jesus God? If the answer is yes, then we need to ask, Is the Muslim God Jesus? If Jesus is not the God of the Islam religion, then are Muslims worshipping the same God that we, as Christians, are?

In a sense, everyone who believes that there is a God begins by believing in the one true God. Unfortunately, these initial concepts of God have grown into religious systems and beliefs that have inaccurate and inadequate concepts of who He really is, what He's like and what He expects from us. People in these religious systems, including Islam, either ignore or deny what God has universally revealed about Himself to mankind (i.e., creation/Romans 1:19-20, law in our hearts/Romans 2:12-15, and the prophets/Hebrews 1:1-2).

Here is a classic passage that refers to one God but many "images" (in other words, idols or false gods).
Romans 1:18-25

Do Muslims and those in other religious systems believe that Jesus is God? Do they believe in the one true God as He has revealed Himself in creation, our hearts and the prophets? The answer is no.

One can certainly argue that we all started at the same place, with a belief that there is a God. But when we evaluate whether Islam and other non-Christian religions have an accurate understanding of who He really is and what He is really like, we must conclude that their concepts of God are dramatically different than the God that is described in the Christian Bible. Because of that, it is valid to argue that the "god" of Islam is not the same as the Christian's God. And why? Because Muslims have an inadequate and inaccurate concept of who God really is.

At the very least, we must conclude that Muslims are not worshipping in spirit and truth (John 4:24), because they don't really know God. And why don't they know God? Because they don't recognize Him for who He really is. In essence, they have created a false, man-made "god." Tragically, man-made "gods" cannot save their followers from sin and eternal condemnation."

The Christian and Muslim god are both the Jewish god: Jehovah (or YHVH ect). It's a matter of clear historical roots. The two are related to the same degree that Judaism is related to either.

So in other words, if as a Christian your god is the God of Adam and Abraham and Moses - then it is the same God as Islam's.


Random Link:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/Q ... /long.html

Granted it is out of context with the discussion: but the clear and highly numerous references to jewish/christian biblical persons and events - with links to all mentioned koran passages - makes the point well.

[Eziekial]

[quote="Tikker"]I guess the point is though, what makes you qualified to teach? (ie, not you martrae, but the average home schoolin parent?)


actually, people should have to pass a test and be qualified to have kids first[/quote]

Teachers (especially elementry school ones) aren't super smart people you know. The profession does not attact the same caliber as it use to. Some argue it's the lower salaries, other say it's become a thankless profession and society does not hold a teacher in the same high regards as we use to. Whatever the case, I would say that everyone on this board is able to home school with great success. We can all read and write (obviously) so following detailed instructions and spending time with your kids learning as you teach is not that difficult.

Plus, if you find your kid suddenly knows more than you it will be a source of pride.