28th amendment to the U.S. Constitution underway...

[Zanchief]

9. The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.

Someone should tell Fox News they are shitting all over the flag.

[Agrajag]

10. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Wouldn't burning the flag be considered murder by this definition? With the exception of disposing of a "dead flag" (one that has touched the ground). As far as I know murder is illegal in this counrty. I say make the amendment and punish those filthy hippies and protestors to the extent of the law.

[Arlos]

Well, the Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag in protest constitutes an act of protected symbolic speech. Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect. Whether you like it or not, it has been quite firmly established that flag-burning is currently legal and constitutional. That's why banning it requires a constitutional amendment.

As I've said before, personally, I think that burning the flag is extremely rare, and is an incredibly minor issue that the congress shouldn't be worrying about when there's so many other things to deal with. Also, I feel that putting in ANY constitutional amendment that LIMITS freedom in some way is a very bad precedent.

-Arlos

[Adivina]

9. The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

10. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Whoops Fourth of July and Memorial Day decorations are apparently bad! As is Captain America and how many Olympic Athletes. >< No more running with the flag draped off your shoulders for you!!!

[Zanchief]

Well, the Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag in protest constitutes an act of protected symbolic speech. Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect. Whether you like it or not, it has been quite firmly established that flag-burning is currently legal and constitutional. That's why banning it requires a constitutional amendment.

As I've said before, personally, I think that burning the flag is extremely rare, and is an incredibly minor issue that the congress shouldn't be worrying about when there's so many other things to deal with. Also, I feel that putting in ANY constitutional amendment that LIMITS freedom in some way is a very bad precedent.

-Arlos

They don't have any intention of passing this, they just want a black list of every person who votes against it so they can point and say "look at him, he hates america" come election time. The worst part is it will work.

[Agrajag]

They don't have any intention of passing this, they just want a black list of every person who votes against it so they can point and say "look at him, he hates america" come election time. The worst part is it will work.

[Narrock]

Uh, Mindia, sorry to contradict you here, but according to the law, rules and guidelines regulating respect for the US flag, wearing that shirt WOULD violate those principles. Look at the post Donnel made, where he copied the entire set of law/rules/regulations, no doubt from a government website. Here's the pertinent points in question:

4. The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

9. The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

10. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

I realize quite well that the use of a flag-print shirt is on a whole different level than burning the flag in protest, though. So no, I wouldn't even begin to equate those two things, no matter what my opinion is on the legality of flag-burning.

-Arlos

Well, to me, someone wearing a U.S. flag is being patriotic. It is not at all offensive.

[Narrock]

OK Mindia, I re-read my post and your post numerous times to see if "it" would sink in. Since "it" has not, please be so kind to explain in detail how you feel an amendment to our constitution banning a practice (which by virtue of it's place in our legal system would have some consequence for violations) makes punishment for that said practice "civil" and tell me how my linear argument is flawed. I appreciate your time to respond and look forward to this clarification.

It is "civil" to punish jerkwads who burn the U.S. flag because they are desecrating the flag of their own country. That's what this whole amendment is about... to make it illegal to desecrate the flag, including burning it out of protest. How can that not be civil? It's totally civil, and I support this amendment 100%.

[The Kizzy]

You dont count

I know, only the people with ZERO concept on what this country is/was supposed to be about count these days. Its a disgrace.

I actually read Tuggan as Tikker and I was thinking the Canadian needs to STFU. Sorry about that

[Narrock]

You dont count

I know, only the people with ZERO concept on what this country is/was supposed to be about count these days. Its a disgrace.

I actually read Tuggan as Tikker and I was thinking the Canadian needs to STFU. Sorry about that

Canada does need to STFU anyway. :P

[Spazz]

No i dont need to live somewhere where my rights really are trampled dickhead I live in america where WE are promised freedom. Just cuz we are not ruled by the taliban yet does not mean the things going on in this country are a good representation of freedom. I dont hate my country i just want it to live up to the promises it makes. Freedom does not mean the right to shop where you want and sorta kinda be allowed to say what you wanna say . It means YOU OWN YOu and baby that isnt whats goin on here.


One more thing. Yea we vote for em and im aware of that dipshit but if you cant see how they RULE and not lead well than your blind. They dont live by the same rules as us. They are in a tax bracket higher than a cloud. They are not accountable for there actions. They vote themselves pay raises. And last but not least they wanna controll just about every part of your personnel life.

[Eziekial]

[quote="Narrock"]It is "civil" to punish jerkwads who burn the U.S. flag because they are desecrating the flag of their own country. That's what this whole amendment is about... to make it illegal to desecrate the flag, including burning it out of protest. How can that [b]not[/b] be civil? It's totally civil, and I support this amendment 100%.[/quote]

I still don't understand how you determined what is punishable and what is not. Is this ban based on the reaction it creates? Is it based on some written ideology? What are you using to establish this as a crime? Is it just based on "someone told me burning it was bad" or do you have just "feel" it to be so? You see, my point is that if we start passing laws just because a majority of people "don't like it" then we are no longer a free country. We are a country of mob rule and eventually, you get someone in power who can manipulate the mob and all of a sudden you realise how true the saying is that goes somelike like this "Those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it."

[Spazz]

Hes just one more of the jerkoffs that are all over this world that wants to legislate his tastes. He doesnt like it so its bad and no one should be allowed to do it and No matter what he says thats really what it comes down to

[Minrott]

Oh hey, let's legislate because of how stuff makes us feel. That's a great idea. When did women take over?

[Spazz]

Hey im not sayin its a good idea but that type of thinking is real populer right now.

[Adivina]

Spazz,

I will say to you what I say to everyone who bitches that we are in such a horrible situation. Until you get up in the morning and "run" the workings of the country everyday, I don't see where you get off to bitch that the president is awful. Honestly, I do not agree with a lot of his policies or views, but he has a very difficult and important job, and I don't think I could handle doing it, do you really think you could?

You are bitching about his tax bracket and the money he makes, fuck if I were under the stress of making decisions for an entire country, I sure as hell would expect to be paid well.

[Narrock]

It all comes down to having respect for your country. Again, the flag does not favor either the left or the right. Your freedom-of-speech is not going to be violated due to this new amendment. Continue to say whatever you want. Burn pictures of your most hated politicians. Hold your signs and banners up high to display your disgust with what you're protesting about, but leave the U.S. flag alone. Burn other countries flags for all I care, but don't desecrate the U.S. flag. I don't know how clearer I can be about this. If you feel that strongly about something that you want to burn the U.S. flag... try to think of another country you'd rather live in, and then pack up your belongings and GTFO. If not, then go ahead and risk being an ASS, and possibly having to pick up your teeth off the ground because you angered a truly patriotic American, or go to jail for being an idiot. Hopefully this new amendment will prompt some American trash to migrate to Canada.

[Tuggan]

Spazz,

I will say to you what I say to everyone who bitches that we are in such a horrible situation. Until you get up in the morning and "run" the workings of the country everyday, I don't see where you get off to bitch that the president is awful. Honestly, I do not agree with a lot of his policies or views, but he has a very difficult and important job, and I don't think I could handle doing it, do you really think you could?

You are bitching about his tax bracket and the money he makes, fuck if I were under the stress of making decisions for an entire country, I sure as hell would expect to be paid well.

He isnt speaking only about president Bush. Hes a very small fraction of the overall problem.

[Donnel]

Uh, Mindia, sorry to contradict you here, but according to the law, rules and guidelines regulating respect for the US flag, wearing that shirt WOULD violate those principles. Look at the post Donnel made, where he copied the entire set of law/rules/regulations, no doubt from a government website. Here's the pertinent points in question:

4. The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

9. The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

10. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

I realize quite well that the use of a flag-print shirt is on a whole different level than burning the flag in protest, though. So no, I wouldn't even begin to equate those two things, no matter what my opinion is on the legality of flag-burning.

-Arlos

Well, to me, someone wearing a U.S. flag is being patriotic. It is not at all offensive.

Just because it's not offensive to you doesn't mean that it doesn't go against the established guidlines for treatment of our greatest symbol.

Just because your flag touches the ground doesn't mean you should burn it FYI. Only when it gets to the point of incredible wear where it is unsightly to present should it be disposed of.

Otherwise if it can be cleaned gently that should be tried first. The preferable way for it to be destroyed is burning. Obviously we don't want a bunch of flags filling landfills that would be more demeaning to the flag then anything!

In my opinion this ammendment should not be. Burning a flag as henious as I think it is, should be a protected form of expression. The guidelines I posted above are just that: Guidelines. Only in DC can you actually be penalized for breaking them and only for some of them. Let the states decide what they want to do about rampant flag burners (do they exist)?

I bet a "no burning things in public without prior permit" type of law would work just fine.

Wanna burn a flag? Okay then you need a permit that will cost you 100$ or more

[Narrock]

Spazz incoherently wrote:

And last but not least they wanna controll just about every part of your personnel life

Hey im not sayin its a good idea but that type of thinking is real populer right now.

Our awsome rulers think we do homie

... and they totally live by a diffrent set of rules than us. IMO that makes them rulers

A shirt and the flag are 2 diffrent things silly

how bout flying it upside down do you think people should get in trubble for that too ??

... but that flag just like every other symbol MEANS DIFFRENT SHIT TO DIFFRENT PEOPLE

Did they forget to teach you English and Grammar skills at your continuation school?

[brinstar]

yeah, nice. make fun of someone's spelling skills. like that fucking matters in this discussion? child.

but anyway--

It all comes down to having respect for your country.

i think that is exactly the issue. people don't burn the flag in protest because it's trendy or because it's taboo, they burn it because they believe their country is no longer worthy of respect due to its actions and/or policies.

no one's asking you to burn your flag. you don't even have to listen to these people explain why they don't respect america! just ignore it and you'll already be undermining their purpose more than any law could.

this whole amendment proposal is just political grandstanding at its finest. deplorable.

[Harrison]

No i dont need to live somewhere where my rights really are trampled dickhead I live in america where WE are promised freedom. Just cuz we are not ruled by the taliban yet does not mean the things going on in this country are a good representation of freedom. I dont hate my country i just want it to live up to the promises it makes. Freedom does not mean the right to shop where you want and sorta kinda be allowed to say what you wanna say . It means YOU OWN YOu and baby that isnt whats goin on here.


One more thing. Yea we vote for em and im aware of that dipshit but if you cant see how they RULE and not lead well than your blind. They dont live by the same rules as us. They are in a tax bracket higher than a cloud. They are not accountable for there actions. They vote themselves pay raises. And last but not least they wanna controll just about every part of your personnel life.

Ho-Ly Shit...

[Gaazy]

heh

[Arlos]

Well, to me, someone wearing a U.S. flag is being patriotic. It is not at all offensive.

Well, I know you don't find it offensive, but can you understand why someone would? It IS against the code for venerating the flag, so if someone is patriotic to the extreme that they want to follow that code to the letter, I'd think they'd be highly offended.

Now again, that's not me. I might laugh at people wearing flag shirts, but hey, I laugh at people anyway for a variety of reasons. heh.

-Arlos

[Adivina]

Spazz,

I will say to you what I say to everyone who bitches that we are in such a horrible situation. Until you get up in the morning and "run" the workings of the country everyday, I don't see where you get off to bitch that the president is awful. Honestly, I do not agree with a lot of his policies or views, but he has a very difficult and important job, and I don't think I could handle doing it, do you really think you could?

You are bitching about his tax bracket and the money he makes, fuck if I were under the stress of making decisions for an entire country, I sure as hell would expect to be paid well.

He isnt speaking only about president Bush. Hes a very small fraction of the overall problem.

President Bush alone doesn't run everything either, my post was directed towards the presidental side of things, but even still members of Congress, the Courts, etc are all elected in and they all serve in very high stress positions. It is ok to voice what you like and don't like, but don't whine and bitch incohenrently about it, espeically when you yourself could not do any better.