Interested in Ganzo's take on this

[Arlos]

Dunno if you still read this place, Ganzo, but I'm interested in your take on this guy:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... xid=Loomia

He seems to have a very interesting view, but I don't have enough context on which to truly judge.

-Arlos

[Ganzo]

Interesting, he's close on many things, but he's missing the core understanding of Judaism and judges everything from a secular view. He is correct on understanding that Jews need oppression to exist as people, when they are free they assimilate. The Jewish/Arab conflict can be resolved if Israel stops using Western methods and talk to Arabs "in their own language".

I can explain detail the whole base for the conflict between cultures but that would take a post size of an essay. In short look at Bible's Kain and Abel, and Sumerian Power Pyramid.

[Arlos]

*nod* I got some of that introduction to the history in a class I took last semester in ancient near-east History from a serious expert in the field. (Hell, he did his PhD work on "The logistics of the Roman Army at Masada", and was part of the group that found that the ramp the romans built followed a natural rock spur, and thus the siege could have been completed in only a matter of weeks, not years.)

As someone of Jewish descent himself, he had an interesting take on the origins of Judaism. His personal opinion is that when it first arose, it was actually a polytheistic religion, just with one dominant diety. Notice the early wording in the Bible talking about not that that there are no other gods, just no other gods ahead of Him, and his title as the "Lord of Hosts", etc. He felt that true monotheism didn't really arise until after the influence of Zoroastrianism began to be felt, and then especially once Josiah introduced the supposedly re-discovered (but likely written at his behest) Deuteronomic Code.


Going back to the original topic, I am not sure what Israel has to do to really find peace in the region. I just know that their current path isn't working, and really has no hope of working. Conquering someone and imposing harsh terms on them just breeds resentment, and gives you simmering problems that just go down to the next generation. I mean, hell, that's exactly what happened with Germany post treaty of Versailles.

I think if the normal people on both sides were able to get together and sit down with each other, things could get fixed very simply, as most everyone just wants to live in peace and security. It's the fanatics on both sides that are the problem, whether they be Arab followers of Hamas and the like, or Israelis like Yigal Amir and that ilk. What you do about fanatics though, short of killing them all, which isn't even remotely a viable option, I have no idea.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

As terrible as it is to say, you'll never have anything even close to peace in the Middle East as long as Israel is Israel. All kinds of tension between Mid-East and the West would come to an end if we weren't constantly supporting Israel, and the bullshit bully tactics they enforce on the Palestinians. You can't even dare say anything negative about what they are doing right now, or you get all kinds of labels.

But you would think the most oppressed group of people in recorded history would have some kinda concept on how to treat other people.

[Tikker]

All kinds of tension between Mid-East and the West would come to an end if we weren't constantly supporting Israel, and the bullshit bully tactics they enforce on the Palestinians. You can't even dare say anything negative about what they are doing right now, or you get all kinds of labels.

I think the West keeps israel from completely bulldozing the rest of the area

[Ganzo]

But you would think the most oppressed group of people in recorded history would have some kinda concept on how to treat other people.

That's silly. Throughout history all liberated groups would always turn into oppressors. But you are also forgetting that Israelis not same as classical Jews, but a secular group that is going through 3rd generation of non stop war.


Arlos:
To stop that conflict Israel needs to make any kind of violence against them unprofitable to everyone involved. Right now Hamas earns money by trafficking heroin, and spends it on buying weapons, uses their own people struggles to build political power base; Israel manufactures and buys weapons, employs thousands of anti terrorist agents, and also uses conflict to gain political power. US and Iran's elections are heavily based on Israeli/Palestinian conflict, both countries profit from selling weapons to sides. Besides ordinary people, no one is interested in stopping this conflict.

[Tuggan]

But you would think the most oppressed group of people in recorded history would have some kinda concept on how to treat other people.

That's silly. Throughout history all liberated groups would always turn into oppressors. But you are also forgetting that Israelis not same as classical Jews, but a secular group that is going through 3rd generation of non stop war.

I guess I really can't argue that point.

I still can't see the Israelis as anything but bullies though, considering how they ended up where they are and all the military, and financial support they have received.

[Gaazy]

I agree with tuggan. That war will never end. As long as there is Israel existing, and as long as there are towelys all around them, theres going to be war. No matter how bad one side or the other may want it, theres too many fanatical lunatics (who happen to be the same people that want us wiped off the slate) who will continue their little religious 'who gives a shit' escapade against them. I wish the US would just leave that whole area the fuck alone. Just get the fuck out and stay out, as impossible as it sounds

[Harrison]

What confuses me is why people are in an uproar?

Hamas launches rockets into Israel intending to murder civilians...
Israel wtfpwns the terrorist fucks...
People around the world bleed from their cuntholes in violent protests...



Police officers in NYC get their shit kicked in over protesting this bullshit? People need a fucking reality check. They should have been shot in the face.

[Arlos]

If Israel was ONLY killing terrorists, that would be one thing.

But something like 250 children have been killed now. That's innocent babies, toddlers, etc. that had nothing to do with Hamas besides having the bad luck to live in the area, and have been burned to death, blown to bits, crushed in collapsing houses, etc. THAT'S that problem.

Plus that and the fact that the war is going on has left tens of thousands of civilians without food, water and power, who risk death if they try and go and GET any, and has completely overwhelmed the medical facilities of the area, so innocents are dying that could be saved otherwise.

It's never about killing the terrorists, if that was all it was very few would protest. It's all about the collateral damage, and the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, so massive civilian casualties are inevitable. And how disjointed does it look when Israel has had 4 or 5 civilians killed, when the Palestinians have had hundreds and thousands of civilians killed?

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Ummmm, casualties of war aren't the same as intended targets of terrorist attacks.

Israel isn't on a campaign to kill men, women, children, etc. last I did any reading.

Hamas is, has been, and always will be killing civilians intentionally.

I see a very distinct difference in intent here...

[Arlos]

Who the fuck cares about "intent" when their 2 year old little girl just got shredded into raw meat right in front of them?

Is "oops, we weren't aiming at YOU" any comfort when your brother just got burned alive 5 feet from you as you were both trapped under rubble?

Somehow, I don't think so. Dead is DEAD. Besides, WTF can the civilians do about Hamas, even if they wanted to? Hamas has the weapons, and besides which, given the economic blockade, much of the time, Hamas is the only group that gives these people anything to eat, when otherwise since they have no money or job, they and their families will starve, etc.

Anyway, how can you prove that members of the Israeli military AREN'T targeting civilians intentionally? It's happened before, go look it up. What proof can you offer to prove that they aren't? If you don't trust Israel already because of their actions in the past, what would there be to lead you to believe that Israel isn't THIS time, despite what their officials are saying? Why should you trust their words any more than we trusted that Iraqi information minister guy? Now, *I* don't believe that Israel is targeting civilians as a policy (individual racist army personnel doing so is certainly possible though), but what proof could you provide someone who DOES believe it?

Ultimately, one of the biggest casualties in all of this is the influence of the moderate arab groups and governments. They had started to be having an effect, to the point where even Israel and Syria were starting to engage in talks. Now, none of them is in a political place where they can maintain the same "make a deal with Israel" stance, due to the anger in their countries about what Israel is doing.

Not that the firing of the rockets is in any way excusable either, obviously. Believe me though, Israel does plenty to provoke the anger, what with the illegal settlement in Palestinian territory, etc.

-Arlos

[Sithos]

Leaflets had been dropped a few days prior advising the civilian population to leave the Gaza area. Now I dunno about you but for myself I know for sure that if a foreign military power will be attacking the area that I and my children live in then I will get the hell outta there. It comes down to a choice between your personal possessions and your children at that point. Stay and protect my home/wealth or ensure that my children are safe type of deal. Many parents decided to stay in what they knew would become a war zone and in doing so put not only themselves but their own children at risk. These very same children go to schools/mosques where Hamas has soldiers and mortar/rocket teams set up.

Now having said that I do think it's high time that Israel stopped it's attack. The point has been proven and there has been far to many civilian deaths, any further actions will result in adding more fuel to the fire. Pressure from various other governments has been ignored and if they continue to snub their allies then they will lose them. Opening the blockades to aid groups and medical teams will go a long way in the international stage.

[Arlos]

The problem is though, where do they go? They're not allowed to leave Gaza, Israel has the entire place blockaded. You're poor, no money, the attacks are happening all over the area, moving in the streets is lethal, what do you do? Sure, if you're lucky you might have a friend to stay with who's in a marginally safer spot, if you can get there without getting killed. But what about people in areas that WEREN'T warned first? Like at that UN School/shelter?

It's not as easy as just saying "Oh, just leave" when there's no where to go TO that's any safer.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

You're dragging too much emotion into a simple question...

Why is the world in an uproar when Hamas brought this upon Gaza?

I didn't hear about any protests when Hamas was launching rockets into Israel with intent to kill civilians.

Israel defends itself and proactively decides to go in, attempt to root out the fucksticks...and suddenly the world cries.

It doesn't make sense.

Is Israel supposed to just take it in the rear and not react?

[Arlos]

Except it is *NOT* a simple question. That's the entire point I'm trying to make. NOTHING there is simple. Treating it as simple is in many ways what has gotten us INTO this mess. Remember, the US is responsible for Hamas getting into power.

We demanded that the Palastinians hold elections in 2006, despite warnings from both Abbas and the Israelis that that was a Very Bad Idea. Abbas's government rather sucks, and Hamas is active in social programs (giving the poor food, jobs, health care, etc.) beyond its militant wing, and Hamas was elected to power in a landslide. Legitimate, democratic election. Then the US went "Wait, you elected people we don't like, Bad palastinians! Bad! Punish!" all for following through on what we demanded.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

Let's also not act like Israel doesn't deserve to have a few rockets launched their way.

[Arlos]

No, no country deserves to have innocent civilians targeted.

-Arlos

[Gaazy]

Dont know if its been mentioned anywhere in here or not, I didnt read real closely, just skimmed through it, but I have heard and read in a few places in the past week that the Hamas were launching rockets from schools, and people are in an uproar because Israel retaliated and hit the school and kids got killed, basically, about right?

If I were Israel, FUCK YEAH id strike back, schools or no damn schools. I sure wouldnt sit there and let my countrymen get killed by these rockets coming in just because I didnt want to strike back on a school. When the rockets were launched from there, that becomes a military target in my mind, whether its a school or not. I would do whatever I had to do to take out those launchers. If some crazy shit happened and Canada started bombing us across the border, shooting the rockets from schools, I would take out wherever they were launching the shit from, and I would expect them to do the same to the US if we were doing that.

So unless I hear all that wrong and missunderstood, wtf is everyone so pissed at isreal for? they are defending themselves arent they? Im not a big supporter of any country over there, much less Israel, but godamn, from what Ive gathered, Hamas started this particular attack. And since they are being rocketed to death from school in towns, they arent supposed to fight back in case of civilian casualties? suuuure. Its a downside of war of course, but in that case its kidn of hard to see a way around it

[Tuggan]

No, no country deserves to have innocent civilians targeted.

-Arlos

Oh I'm sure if the Palestinians were allowed to have a military, they would be more than happy to target Israeli forces.

Launching blind isn't really targeting civies.

[Nusk]

hamas and other terrorist organizations are infamous for putting ak47s into the hands of 10 year olds to go shoot israelis and then crying murder when the 10 year old is killed by israeli military

seriously israel really needs to learn how to manipulate the media as well as hamas does. when the rocket hit the israeli school and killed israeli children the media should of bombarded the interwebs with video of that before going into gaza.

important side note... these are NOT palastinians.. most of the so called palastinians are 1st or 2nd generation syrians and egyptians

[Arlos]

Is someone who's grandparents immigrated to the US not an American? That's what you just argued.

-Arlos

[Nusk]

no but you cant have something taken away from you that you never had in the first place

so its kind of more of some guy moving to the usa from france and using terrorist actions to get his native american land back and spending 20 years teaching children that it is a wonderful thing to kill americans and to die for the cause

[Lueyen]

No, no country deserves to have innocent civilians targeted.

-Arlos

Oh I'm sure if the Palestinians were allowed to have a military, they would be more than happy to target Israeli forces.

Launching blind isn't really targeting civies.

You honestly think Hamas gives a rats ass about Israel's civilian populace? Do you think if their rockets were extremely accurate no more would be landing on Israel's civilian populace? Hell they're willing to exploit their own, even going so far as to thwarting Israels efforts to help the civilians in Gaza

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/13/hamas-and-the-free-market/

If you really want to lay blame for the civilian deaths in Gaza, it lies at the feat of the people who orchestrate the situation.

[Tuggan]

No, I don't think Hamas cares about anything but Hamas and their own causes.

I also don't feel Hamas or any other terrorist type organization would be the force they are, if the Palestinians were allowed to defend themselves.