today's wikileaks cabledump

[brinstar]

...was fucking amazing. they crowdsourced it too, so anyone that digs up something juicy can link it and post it on twitter with the hashtag #wlfind.

here's 10 (okay 11) of the most interesting things i learned from searching #wlfind

• the US govt was selling military parts to the libyan air force this decade
  
• the vatican acknowledges sexual abuse of nuns by priests
  
• israel attacked UN forces and Red Cross medical personnel during 2008 war on gaza...
  
• ...and secretary of state hillary clinton advised these israeli transgressions be downplayed/buried
  
• americans, homosexuals, and bikinis are not welcome in turkey
  
• walmart has unions in china but not in the US
  
• the vatican used very strong language to dissuade US from unilaterally invading iraq in 2003
  
• "kidnapping to fight terrorism" isn't actually kidnapping
  
• 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 in 1988 was carried out under direction of libyan govt…
  
• …and obama administration instructed diplomats not to ask gaddafi about it
  
• oh yeah, and perhaps the scariest - the US army was trying to import complete genome maps and live specimens of four viruses which are "absolutely among the most dangerous pathogens in the world" from a lab in germany, who balked because "the end use certificate lacked an official seal"

[brinstar]

my thoughts:

• maybe it's time the RCC drops this whole celibacy thing, it's obviously not working
  
• why the fuck were we selling military parts to libya
  
• props to JP2 for trying to stop US invasion into iraq
  
• why the fuck does our govt have such a boner for israel
  
• fuck turkey, bikinis are awesome
  
• walmart's allowed to unionize... in CHINA of all places? why the fuck not here?
  
• why's obama asking his people to keep mum on pan am 103?
  
• WHY IS OUR MILITARY AFTER DEADLY PATHOGENS
  
• and most importantly - all of these cables were leaked to various media outlets LAST NOVEMBER. holy mother of jesusfuck, why haven't the american public heard a peep about these things yet?

i urge you all to spend ~15 minutes searching #wlfind and see what else you can come up with!

[Lyion]

my thoughts:

• maybe it's time the RCC drops this whole celibacy thing, it's obviously not working

As a Catholic, I'm a bit torn on this. I like the fact priests are devoted to God, but at the same time almost all the priests in the first world are those they've recruited from the third. There are millions of members and clergy. In any group there are good and bad apples. I try not to throw stones from my glass houses, and mistakes between consenting adults are one thing. The bigger issue was the dioceses who covered up the child abuse cases

why the fuck were we selling military parts to libya

After the Iraq war earlier this decade Qaddafi opened up and was transparent regarding his nuclear program. In exchange for his good acts we lifted trade sanctions. When that happened they became just another country our capitalist machine attempted to trade and make money from.

props to JP2 for trying to stop US invasion into iraq

Status Quo for the Church.

why the fuck does our govt have such a boner for israel

There are a lot of wealthy Jewish people in the US, and many in positions of power. Take a gander at how many politicians are Jewish. Take a look at how many media executives are Jewish. The percentages based on population are a bit staggering.

fuck turkey, bikinis are awesome

Turkey is a Muslim nation. They are also one of our best allies. None of this is news or a 'leak'. I've been to Turkey, and it's a shithole but really shouldn't we be tolerant of other cultures?

walmart's allowed to unionize... in CHINA of all places? why the fuck not here?

The government controls EVERYTHING in China. Wal-mart can unionize here if they'd like to, as long as they follow each states legislation.

why's obama asking his people to keep mum on pan am 103?

Libya paid restitution to the victims and did what was asked. Bush did the same thing, so it's probably per instructions from State for good diplomacy, post transparency acts from Qaddafi.

WHY IS OUR MILITARY AFTER DEADLY PATHOGENS

Er, because we'd like to know what to do if they were used on our troops, or scarier, on our populace in general?

and most importantly - all of these cables were leaked to various media outlets LAST NOVEMBER. holy mother of jesusfuck, why haven't the american public heard a peep about these things yet?

i urge you all to spend ~15 minutes searching #wlfind and see what else you can come up with!

None of this is really that big a secret. Anyone who follows current events knows most of this already.

[vonkaar]

Lyion is clearly against bikinis.

[Spazz]

Why cant a man or woman be devoted to god and have a husband/wife and a family. Seems really wack to me to make someone deny such a huge part of life just so that "they can be closer to god". Does not having sex or a family make god like you more or make you more devout. Shit makes no sense to me.

[Lyion]

Lyion is clearly against bikinis.

Probably a result of my migration from San Diego to Ohio, and the different sizes of the women therein....

Why cant a man or woman be devoted to god and have a husband/wife and a family. Seems really wack to me to make someone deny such a huge part of life just so that "they can be closer to god". Does not having sex or a family make god like you more or make you more devout. Shit makes no sense to me.

The idea of the Catholic priesthood is one should be totally devoted to God and the priesthood itself. It's also tradition. Having a family generally means ones primary focus is that family, not taking care of their church responsibilities. If one wants to serve and have a family, there are plenty of other ways such as being a Deacon.

Remember, one can leave or enter the Priesthood anytime, as long as you have the requisite seminary training <Masters Degree >. Once you enter, though, the Priest is expected to take a vow of celibacy.

[Spazz]

ANd my argument is look how well that vow of celibacy is working out for the church. That shit just seems really outdated and silly. A man can run his church and still have a family look at the other religions and pastors and what not.

My biggest beef with religion as a whole other than it spawns people like mindia is that its outdated and out of touch with reality. How many of these men of god are really celibate? I bet a lot of people would be shocked if a % was about to come out. Also look to the middle east to see this in action as well. A healthy sex life is part of being a healthy adult and it looks like people without one really suffer from a lot of problems to me.Why are there so many sex scandals in the catholic church ?

[brinstar]

edit: snipped the enormous quote

re: the RCC

so maybe the real problem is that the priests who can't handle celibacy are too ashamed/weak/whatever to man up and GTFO before breaking that vow? i'm certain there's a tonne of pressure on clergy to be as close to sinless as possible - so i understand how they wouldn't want to admit stuff like that and appear flawed, but for the sake of the victims (regardless of age or gender) i'd say seminaries need to do a better job of stressing the importance of stepping down BEFORE the vow is broken, not after they're caught. know what i mean? okay, yeah, you have urges, we understand - just make sure you lose the collar before you bury the bishop

OTOH i wanted to throw in that bit about JP2 so it didn't seem like i'm 100% doggin' on 'em. i know the RCC is pretty anti-war (at least in the last couple centuries, zing!) but it was nice to see actual communiques from them


re: israel and libya

IMO this seems like a prime example of the moral consequences of allowing the military-industrial complex to basically run our country. we are selling weapons of war to people regardless of their objective or methods, and lo and behold they are turning around and doing bad things with them (such as bombing planes and shelling Red Cross units, wtf?). would they still do bad things to each other without our weapons? yeah probably, but then at least there wouldn't be (as much) blood on our hands as well


re: turkey

ally or not, no dice. until they stop denying the armenian genocide, fuck 'em


and re: deadly pathogens in the hands of the military

that sounds like a plausible justification but (and i realize i sound like i'm wearing a tinfoil hat here) i seriously doubt that our military's intentions for acquiring such things are 100% pure. you just KNOW that some old hawk on a panel somewhere with a classified discretionary R&D budget thinks it's a great idea to weaponize africanized moon ebola "just in case"

[Drem]

dated a turkish girl a few years ago and she had nothing good to say about that country. on the way back to the airport she busted out a chillum in the car and got stoned like it was the last time she was ever gonna do anything fun in her life. never talked to her again. also ramadan is insane

[Lyion]

so maybe the real problem is that the priests who can't handle celibacy are too ashamed/weak/whatever to man up and GTFO before breaking that vow? i'm certain there's a tonne of pressure on clergy to be as close to sinless as possible - so i understand how they wouldn't want to admit stuff like that and appear flawed, but for the sake of the victims (regardless of age or gender) i'd say seminaries need to do a better job of stressing the importance of stepping down BEFORE the vow is broken, not after they're caught. know what i mean? okay, yeah, you have urges, we understand - just make sure you lose the collar before you bury the bishop

That's a surprising black and white analogy from you, Brin.

It's a matter of choice and the fact we're all weak in one way or another. I believe most Priests do not break their vows of celibacy. Most want to do the work of God and be a force for good. Some stray from the path. I don't really buy they want to live life on a pedestal, but rather in service. I've yet to meet a priest who wasn't humble and most are open, especially about their lives.

Anyway, the problems with the church by and large aren't at the Priest level outside of a shortage. They are at the Bishop & Cardinal levels where many seem to have forgotten that 'service' thing in their lives of posh and luxury.

Really, you should spend a few hours chatting with a Jesuit.

dated a turkish girl a few years ago and she had nothing good to say about that country. on the way back to the airport she busted out a chillum in the car and got stoned like it was the last time she was ever gonna do anything fun in her life. never talked to her again. also ramadan is insane

Drem, were you ever over in the Mideast during Ramadan? The self flagellation always really bothered me, and the crazy attitudes during the time from people not eating/drinking during the day. I guess it's not too different from the Christian crazies in the P.I. who crucify themselves.

[brinstar]

That's a surprising black and white analogy from you, Brin.

It's a matter of choice and the fact we're all weak in one way or another. I believe most Priests do not break their vows of celibacy. Most want to do the work of God and be a force for good. Some stray from the path. I don't really buy they want to live life on a pedestal, but rather in service. I've yet to meet a priest who wasn't humble and most are open, especially about their lives.

Anyway, the problems with the church by and large aren't at the Priest level outside of a shortage. They are at the Bishop & Cardinal levels where many seem to have forgotten that 'service' thing in their lives of posh and luxury.

Really, you should spend a few hours chatting with a Jesuit.

honestly i have a lot of mixed feelings re: churches, religion, etc and i've studied a lot of world religions (minored in religious studies)

it's something i enjoy thinking very deeply about, even though i may from time to time seem overly critical or secularist

[Lyion]

Actually, it makes perfect sense. I was raised Catholic but raged against religion and spent a good chunk of time as an atheist. Most people have several transitions in life, unless they keep things fairly two dimensional.

I speak fluent Farsi and Arabic and have studied religion for years as a hobby. In a material world faith is difficult to come by and easy to lose, especially when there's so much wrong where ever one looks.

I still question everything, but the bottom line is my faith makes me a better person. Far better than when I had none, and ignored what was right in front of me. I still think a good long discussion with a Jesuit would interest you. They pretty much represent the Anti-Mindia/Seventh Day Adventist mold of thinking.

[brinstar]

Actually, it makes perfect sense. I was raised Catholic but raged against religion and spent a good chunk of time as an atheist. Most people have several transitions in life, unless they keep things fairly two dimensional.

I speak fluent Farsi and Arabic and have studied religion for years as a hobby. In a material world faith is difficult to come by and easy to lose, especially when there's so much wrong where ever one looks.

I still question everything, but the bottom line is my faith makes me a better person. Far better than when I had none, and ignored what was right in front of me. I still think a good long discussion with a Jesuit would interest you. They pretty much represent the Anti-Mindia/Seventh Day Adventist mold of thinking.

sho nuff, i've always had respek for the jesuits

there's a great book you should pick up called Reverence, i really can't recommend it enough

[Drem]

Drem, were you ever over in the Mideast during Ramadan? The self flagellation always really bothered me, and the crazy attitudes during the time from people not eating/drinking during the day. I guess it's not too different from the Christian crazies in the P.I. who crucify themselves.

no, never, she was a transfer student here in oregon. but since ramadan is happening or might've just ended (i don't follow lunar calendars) and i work for a palestinian, i get to see what that "nothing passes the lips" ideology does to proud men. i haven't seen any self flagellation, but i haven't been to the mosques or anything around here either. just a bunch of pissed off dudes that look really, really hungry

all i know is that we pump out ridiculous side orders of food from the bakery that literally gangles of dudes from qatar come in to pick up at sunset on-the-dot to take off to the mosque in their shiny new BMWs that the government paid for or something. they're all really cool guys, but they all have way too much money. one of the dudes has a bowlcut so hardcore i can't even find a picture that looks 1% like it

[Lyion]

http://www.amazon.com/Reverence-Renewin ... 0195157958

This guy?

[brinstar]

that's the one. i probably read through that book 3-4 times a year.

[Arlos]

Amusingly enough, given my pagan status, I'm attending one of the premier Jesuit universities in the nation for grad school. Santa Clara University.

Unfortunately for the Catholic Church these days, the Jesuits are kind of on the outs, it looks like. Pope Palpatine has assembled a VERY conservative college of cardinals, and an equivalently conservative set of bishops as well. All of whom, unfortunately for the church's popularity, seem to be hell-bent on repealing as much of Vatican II as they can possibly manage. The Jesuits, as best I have seen, are all about questioning and examining questions of faith, or anything else you might have in mind. The current top leadership of the RCC, though, seem to go out of their way to discourage questions, and encourage blind following of dogma.

If the Church wants to continue to grow in the Western world, they need to evolve some with the times, and reduce their emphasis on being in lockstep with church dogma, rather than roll back what advancements they DID make 40-50 years ago now. Things like their dead-set opposition to ANY form of birth control, including condoms, spring to mind here. Their opposition to abortion I can understand, even if I disagree, but condoms?

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Question to all the religious dicks who hate on atheists. Why do they all have to point out that they were atheists at one time when they were "stupid", "unenlightened", "naive"? Often it's not even true, it's just a company line.

I was raised religious back when I was too young to think for myself. When I was about 12 years old and held the capacity to make reasonable and educated decision, that shit didn't fly with me any more. I speak french and English and about 3 words of Arabic. I type 80 words per minute, I have a 10 inch cock and I've studied Dungeons and Dragons all my life as a hobby. I feel all of this is important when discussing why religion is a needless crutch for the uneducated.

A Jesuit told me that by the way, or was it a Jedi? Whatever. It's all the same.

[Harrison]

It's because militant loudmouth Atheists think themselves better than anyone for having a belief dissimilar to them.

It's pretty disgustingly ignorant in the same sense a militant religious fanatic is of the same mindframe.

They're both fucking dumb.

[Lyion]

Question to all the religious dicks who hate on atheists. Why do they all have to point out that they were atheists at one time when they were "stupid", "unenlightened", "naive"? Often it's not even true, it's just a company line..

Stopped reading after 'Dicks'. When you grow up a bit more and aren't mad at everything faith based, perhaps we can talk like big people.

In the meantime feel free to read the nice book that Brinstar linked. It'd do you some good Mindia, er Zan.

[Zanchief]

It's because militant loudmouth Atheists think themselves better than anyone for having a belief dissimilar to them.

It's pretty disgustingly ignorant in the same sense a militant religious fanatic is of the same mindframe.

They're both fucking dumb.

I don't even align myself with atheists, but an eye for eye is terrible logic. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

[Spazz]

Ya know im almost 30 now and Im an atheist . Im not pissed because folks believe in a god of some sort im pissed that folks use they religion as a weapon. Mindia is a good example of this. I dont give 2 shits what people want to believe but I want them to leave others who dont believe as they do alone and stop trying to make laws to punish and control them.

I think there are 2 types of religious people out there. Those who get it and try to treat others well and feel spiritual joy is one. The rev phelps and mindias and bin ladens are the other sort. They use faith as a weapon to attack and hate on everyone who doesnt agree

If the religious people could stop killing others for believing in a different invisible man and hiding behind faith to act like bigots I would prolly look on them in a more positive way. Right now I think religion causes more problems than it helps and is a major reason the world is so violent and hate filled.

My other problem with religion is the concept of sin. Seems like just about everything is a sin and we all need to be sorry for who we are so the angry god doesnt send us to hell forever is just silly.

My thoughts are kind of all over the map today

[Lyion]

If the religious people could stop killing others for believing in a different invisible man and hiding behind faith to act like bigots I would prolly look on them in a more positive way. Right now I think religion causes more problems than it helps and is a major reason the world is so violent and hate filled.

That's a pretty broad generalization. I'd argue atheist drug dealers with handguns, pit bulls, and no morals are far more of a cause for violence and hate than Reverend Smith around the corner with his food bank and spiritual revivals.

My other problem with religion is the concept of sin. Seems like just about everything is a sin and we all need to be sorry for who we are so the angry god doesnt send us to hell forever is just silly.

Let me put 'sin' into a simple sentence you can appreciate: "Don't be a douchebag". Positing a basic philosophy that argues against lying, stealing, killing, and treating others bad is wrong why?

My thoughts are kind of all over the map today

Just today?

an eye for eye is terrible logic

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42

[brinstar]

yup, jesus was a taoist

[Spazz]

That's a pretty broad generalization. I'd argue atheist drug dealers with handguns, pit bulls, and no morals are far more of a cause for violence and hate than Reverend Smith around the corner with his food bank and spiritual revivals

Most gs are christians. Grow up goin to church and get all types of religious ink. Most of them dont practice the faith they speak of but ive yet to meet a gangsta atheist .

Let me put 'sin' into a simple sentence you can appreciate: "Don't be a douchebag". Positing a basic philosophy that argues against lying, stealing, killing, and treating others bad is wrong why?

I would agree with you about not acting like a dickhead but that isnt what sin is. Sin is looking at Kim K and thinking dirty thoughts. Or if your gay your a sinner just for being alive. Thats the problem with sin. Some folks would say that smoking weed is a sin. Why is all this shit a sin if its one natural and 2 didnt hurt anybody ?

My thoughts are kind of all over the map today



Just today?

Yea I started a new prescription for my blown out knee and its got me way spaced out today.

Finally though not directed at me I do believe in an eye for an eye but a wise man once said an eye for an eye makes everyone blind.


Like i said I dont have a problem with people of faith who leave other people alone. Crazy muslims and mindias and the klan are a different beast though . My thoughts really are that everyone should leave everyone else the hell alone. Weather its being a homo owning a large dog a stockpile of weapons or doing dope all day if a nigga isnt hurting you or fuckin with your life than leave em alone.