Penn State students... ARE U FAWKING KIDDING ME???

[Narrock]

You're really going to protest and riot over the firing of a fucking child molester? Really? OmfG...

[leah]

yeah. no good. no good at all.

on a related note, i hope the huskers crush PSU on saturday. i think it's going to be really difficult because of how fired up the whole team probably is, but i hope we can pull it off.

[Kaemon]

.

You're really going to protest and riot over the firing of a fucking child molester? Really? OmfG...

Paterno wasn't the child molester, get your facts straight.

The mistake Paterno made that got him terminated of his job (rightly so) was only telling his boss about what happened and washed his hands of the incident. He should have taken it to the next level and contact the authorities when his boss didn't.

Criminally he did nothing wrong, ethically, you lose your job and tarnish your legacy

[Zanchief]

Criminally he did nothing wrong, ethically, you lose your job and tarnish your legacy

I'm not so sure about that. If you have explicit details about something like this and fail to notify the proper authorities you can be criminally liable. I'd put them all in jail.

[Kaemon]

He notified his boss, he took the step he needed to take to keep himself clean. Was it a shit move? Yes.
Sheriff already said he didn't do anything wrong, can they go back? Absolutely.

I would question Paterno how McCreary who is the guy that witnessed an incident when he was an intern assisstant, told Paterno and all of a sudden gets a job as a Wide Recievers coach a few years later...talk about hush money.

It still doesn't make Paterno a molester as original topic states, just a poor lack of judgement that he and the university will pay for for years . The man will die soon, 84 yrs old and when the report comes out, instead of being a man of integrity and winningest coach in College football, the first line will be... Disgraced Penn State Coach that was part of an investigation to child molestation of an Asst. Coach has died.

[Zanchief]

Who cares if he notified his boss. His boss isn't authorised to do anything about a criminal matter. If he witnessed a murder and told his mom about it, would that make him less liable? The Sherriff is being a coward, IMO. I'd have charged them all, including McCreary, who doesn't seem to be getting any heat so far.

[Kaemon]

If the law states he wasn't criminally liable, how can you arrest him?
As far as we know, Paterno never saw anything, it was all hearsay. Fault him for being an idiot, but not for criminal misconduct.
Weren't you the one in #occupy saying banks aren't breaking laws? Paterno didn't break any laws. But we can deem him a douchebag as we do with banks.

Also, If you see a murder, you're not an accomplice unless you particpated in it. You're considered a witness and as a witness you have the option to testify or not. Is it a moral obligation? Yes, but not mandatory.

Edit for grammar and there's probably more mistakes....

[Zanchief]

If the law states he wasn't criminally liable, how can you arrest him?

I think he is breaking the law, they just chose not to prosecute (which is up to the them). There are bystander laws. Its true is hearsay though. Not sure how that applies.

[Narrock]

Paterno is just as guilty

[Kaemon]

[leah]

The mistake Paterno made that got him terminated of his job (rightly so) was only telling his boss about what happened and washed his hands of the incident. He should have taken it to the next level and contact the authorities when his boss didn't.

Criminally he did nothing wrong, ethically, you lose your job and tarnish your legacy

this is very true. mindia's wrong in calling JoePa a chi-mo. regardless, he deserves what he got for not making sure that someone followed through on this--as does everyone else who knew but didn't make sure something was done. he didn't do enough, and innocent kids suffered as a result, however indirectly, of his (non)actions. i'm disgusted that these students are coming out in full force in opposition of his firing, because i guess i think protecting children from abuse is more important than football. if bo pelini knew carl or someone else on the husker staff was diddling little boys and didn't work to make sure it was stopped as soon as possible, then i'd want him thrown out, too, and lord knows i love me some bo.

[Gypsiyee]

I think it's really imperative that people don't accuse him of being the molester, because that's inaccurate.

As for him being fired, I'm kind of on the fence due to my limited knowledge of the situation. It's my understanding that someone else actually saw it happen (Paterno did not), reported it to Paterno, and due to protocol procedure at the school, he was required to report it to the board but not yet at liberty to report it to the police since at that point it was hearsay. the board subsequently did nothing with the information. If that's the case, I don't understand why the board isn't in more trouble for not investigating further and why Paterno is essentially alone in taking the ration of shit for it.

Of course, I may have the details wrong since like I said my knowledge on it is pretty limited. If someone has more information please feel free to clarify.

[Zanchief]

He was involved in a cover-up that allowed this guy to continue to work with underage boys on school property. We need to stop debating whether he should or should not be fired, and start debating how long he should be in jail.

For everyone stating there is nothing criminally negligent here, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the law. If you're complicit with a cover-up, then you're guilty. He had heard of rape of minors and did nothing while his colleague continued to work with children. We have laws to protect people in this situation. It wouldn’t surprise me if things get a bit more complicated and charges were laid in the future.

As for the students protesting in defense of this moron, well…yea I won’t bother.

[Gypsiyee]

Was there evidence that he was involved in a deliberate cover-up? I haven't seen that, just the stuff on negligence based on not reporting it to the police and that the person who actually witnessed it couldn't recall how much he told Paterno.

[Zanchief]

He was told of a serious crime, a crime involving children by a colleague who works with children, and when nothing was done about it, he did nothing while his colleague continued to work with children. This, in my opinion, constitutes covering it up. Didn't the man who witnessed it get a promotion in his program? This whole thing stinks. Those people protesting/rioting about it should get the Tiananmen Square treatment as far as I'm concerned.

[Arlos]

From what I understand of the situation, the circumstances are this:

1) Official legal policy at the university is, apparently, to immediately report any such thing to your supervisor.
2) He did that.
3) However, he did nothing ELSE.

That's where the failing comes in. He fulfilled his legal obligations, but not his moral ones. He SHOULD have followed up. He SHOULD have done everything in his power to make damn sure either the report was inaccurate or that Sandusky was arrested and put away. He failed to do that and is rightly being excoriated for it, and has been fired. Plus, he now has to live with the knowledge that his failing tarnished a reputation for honesty and honor he spent over 40 years cultivating and apparently at least mostly living up to. Even worse, he has to live with the knowledge that children were harmed and he could have prevented it.

So, from everything I've read, the odds of him getting in legal trouble are low, since he followed the rules to the letter on what to do. But he is, and should be, held to a higher standard than just doing the bare minimum, ESPECIALLY in a case like this, and that's why he was fired immediately, instead of being allowed to resign at the end of the year.

It's all a huge mess. In some ways, I feel really sorry for the man, as he really did spend over 40 years holding his players and the program to a high moral standard. There's never been a NCAA scandal of any kind at Penn state before this, and they always averaged near the top in graduation rates. But then I remember about the kids he could have helped, the fact he didn't hold HIMSELF to that higher standard and did nothing, and I get angry all over again.

The protestors are indeed being morons. Unfortunately, there's no law against being an idiot.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

I don't see how campus policy constitutes law. Don't the big boy laws take precedent over those? Everywhere I read they said he fulfilled his legal obligation by telling his supervisor. How does that have anything to do with the law. His supervisor is in no position preside over such a matter.

This whole thing confuses me.

[Gypsiyee]

Well, I mean.. again, it sounds like he was put in a situation of hearsay. If it's someone you've known and trusted for years, that's a pretty serious allegation to just assume guilt and immediately run to the law when you have no evidence beyond someone else's word.

So to play devil's advocate, let's make the assumption that he got this from someone he doesn't know from adam. He has no power to verify the validity of the statement someone made, and ethically he doesn't really have the right to implicate a subordinate based on a single instance of a statement made. According to reports, he took the information to the board of trustees pretty quickly; he followed required procedure to pass it up for further investigation which is something he isn't qualified to do.

Now, I can understand people being upset at his negligence since it turns out that it was true. But let's say it wasn't. Let's say it was just some asshole spreading a rumor trying to ruin someone's career. In that case, if he goes to the cops with information that he has no verification of and gets this person arrested and investigated by authorities and it ends up that he's innocent, it doesn't really matter that he is. By the time that kind of investigation got to the press, that guy could be acquitted and his reputation and career is still ruined based on the mere fact that the allegations were made in the first place.

If there were multiple separate instances with more concrete evidence submitted to Paterno and he flat out ignored it, I'd be a lot more appalled. For me, though, based on what we actually know about the case at this point, I think the people at the top who did nothing to investigate further are far more at fault along the guy who actually witnessed it happening with his own eyes.

Based on the reputation of his moral compass over the span of decades, I think it's possible that he honestly believed the statement made to him to be outlandish and false and felt that instead of feeding a rumor mill, he opted to pass it on to people who had the power to broach the situation with the individual and the witness without crossing ethical lines and putting a potentially innocent man's career at stake.

Now I know that the guy is guilty and disgusting so obviously the outcome can only be evaluated after the fact, but I'm just trying to put myself in the time frame it happened when you simply don't have all the knowledge. It's easy to say 'well I would've done this' in hindsight, but a lot more difficult when you're in the present situation and have little info to go on.

If someone comes up to me and says "your co-worker raped someone last night, I saw him" honestly I'm not really sure I'd be so quick to call 911 and say "arrest that man!" when that comment gives me no validation of his guilt. I know him to be a stand up guy, I don't know him to be a womanizer nor have I ever heard this type of comment before, so frankly I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt and approach it in a different manner without involving authorities until we had more knowledge that implicated him.

Does that make me unethical or immoral? I don't really think so..but if it were true, of course in hindsight I'd be really pissed that I didn't do more. On the contrary, though, if it turned out it was just a rumor I'd be relieved that I didn't overreact and put the guy through a lot of unnecessary hardship.

[Kaemon]

Zanchief,

It's not just campus policy, it's how the law dictates. He reported it, he's clear of any crime. There is no law that states he has to take it another level. The crime now goes to the Athletic Director and VP who were both charged for lying under oath. The only thing that can be done was terminate Paterno, which was rightfully so. Everyone else is most likely going to go to jail or pay some huge fine.

[Kaemon]

He was involved in a cover-up that allowed this guy to continue to work with underage boys on school property. We need to stop debating whether he should or should not be fired, and start debating how long he should be in jail.

For everyone stating there is nothing criminally negligent here, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the law. If you're complicit with a cover-up, then you're guilty. He had heard of rape of minors and did nothing while his colleague continued to work with children. We have laws to protect people in this situation. It wouldn’t surprise me if things get a bit more complicated and charges were laid in the future.

As for the students protesting in defense of this moron, well…yea I won’t bother.

I was going to post what I've learned, but I can't give it justice...read the Grand Jury testimony. Wow.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/documents/sandusky-grand-jury-report11052011.html

Edit - Victim 2 is the the Paterno one.

[Zanchief]

If someone comes up to me and says "your co-worker raped someone last night, I saw him" honestly I'm not really sure I'd be so quick to call 911 and say "arrest that man!" when that comment gives me no validation of his guilt. I know him to be a stand up guy, I don't know him to be a womanizer nor have I ever heard this type of comment before, so frankly I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt and approach it in a different manner without involving authorities until we had more knowledge that implicated him.

If someone came up to you and said he saw a co-worker who works in the daycare rape a kid, you wouldn't follow up if you saw that guy still working with kids a few weeks months (years?) later? We can come up with all the exaggerated scenario's you want. The reality? He was told by someone who worked in his program that this man was raping kids. He respected his opinion enough that he promoted him within his system, but doesn't trust him enough to accept his word that he saw a man rape a child?

This whole thing stinks, and I feel those defending this guy are doing to make a point. His behavior is inexcusable. When this thing blows up, I'll stand here and tell you all I told you so, and you can say but I didn't know all the details.

[brinstar]

there are rumors circulating now that sandusky actually pimped young boys to wealthy donors

i really hope it's unfounded but wow holy fuck

it's already the biggest college football scandal in history, dwarfing such incidents as reggie bush at USC, tressel at ohio state, cheatgate at miami, and even the pony express death penalty at SMU in the 80s


at any rate, i whole-heartedly agree with the thread title, it's basically the world's first NAMBLA riot

[Gypsiyee]

If someone came up to you and said he saw a co-worker who works in the daycare rape a kid, you wouldn't follow up if you saw that guy still working with kids a few weeks months (years?) later? We can come up with all the exaggerated scenario's you want. The reality? He was told by someone who worked in his program that this man was raping kids. He respected his opinion enough that he promoted him within his system, but doesn't trust him enough to accept his word that he saw a man rape a child?

Well no, I'd follow up but there's a credibility factor. Let's say someone came to you and said Snerp raped someone. You're really telling me that your immediate reaction would be to call the cops, get him suspended, and press them until they showed you evidence that Matt wasn't guilty?

I mean like I said, my knowledge on the case is limited and I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm just saying it's easy to say should've, could've, would've when you find out later that something is actually horrifically true.

This whole thing stinks, and I feel those defending this guy are doing to make a point. His behavior is inexcusable. When this thing blows up, I'll stand here and tell you all I told you so, and you can say but I didn't know all the details.

Well of course it stinks. I'm not defending him or trying to make a point. I'm saying I don't understand why the major story is about Paterno; he wasn't the witness and he wasn't the perp. The story should be about Sandusky, the guy who witnessed it and figured he'd just make a single statement to the guy's boss and wash his hands of it, and the top echelon of people who according to university procedure are the end receivers of information who did nothing with it. I don't get the outrage at the middleman when he realistically has the least potential impact out of the people involved.

I don't know all the details. I'm saying if you want to rally and cry out that we have laws for these things, then you need to acknowledge that we also have this little thing in our constitution called due process and facts are still unfolding here. This isn't a Herman Cain thing wherein the guy in the headline actually is the perp and has multiple cases with documentation, litigation, and payoffs with gag orders. btw, I'm surprised no one has noted the irony in the outrage of the author of this post vs. his defense of the actual offender in a lesser degree of similar behavior.

Sandusky is the bad guy here. The witness who saw it and passed it on to a single guy is a bad guy here. The board of trustees who took the information and swept it under the rug are bad guys here. Paterno (based on the information that I actually know) neglected to follow up on a statement and that's where his fault lies. He's not an investigator, so there's only so much he has the power to do with the word of a witness. Obviously, if it comes out that he witnessed it as well or had more evidence of fact and still did nothing, that's a different case.

No one is defending Sandusky or the witness that decided to just take his absolutely confirmed knowledge to the coach instead of the cops. I just don't get why Paterno is the big story here; his involvement just seems limited to not following up on what, at the time, was a rumor with no further evidence.

[Arlos]

I too wonder why more isn't being made about the assistant who saw Sandusky having anal sex with the kid in the shower, and all HE did was tell someone. Why didn't he DO something at the time it was happening? Even back in 2002 there were cameras on cell phones, you take a picture to show proof to the cops, then get in there and STOP things. Preferably by hitting Sandusky over the head with a large heavy object, then calling 911 to bring the cops and the paramedics. Even just stepping into the room and shouting, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?" would have put a stop to it. How could he not do even THAT much?

That makes me just as sick to my stomach, or moreso, than Paterno's inaction.

What a mess. What a horrible, horrible mess.

-Arlos

PS. You know, I think this may be one of, if not THE first time on NT we have all been in COMPLETE agreement over a political issue? (namely that the Penn State students were being f'ing morons)

[Zanchief]

I think the story isn't about Sandusky because everyone knows what he did is vile. There isn't really any need to talk about it. I do feel the witness is also very much at fault, but no one is flipping cars in his defense so the bulk of the news is centered on Paterno.

I'll reiterate a point that I think illustrates my position.

If Paterno believed the witness he must have known Sandusky was a pedophile and was working with young boys.

If Paterno did not believe the witness he hired someone and quickly promoted him when he made a baseless accusation against a long time colleague of his of child rape.

There's more to this, I guarantee. As more victims are coming forward, it's becoming harder to imagine more people didn't know this was happening.