E-verify and i9 Express

[Kaemon]

Another reason why prices will go up and quality of service will go down in Restuarants.

[Lyion]

I have to disagree. While these may slightly raise costs in the short term for a few, by and large this will be better for the entire process.

Now, we just need to incorporate E-verify into elections to stop the rampant fraud that occurs there.

[Arlos]

WHAT rampant corruption? That's a GOP talking point, but I haven't seen any actual reports, anywhere, of vast levels of electoral fraud.

The most I've seen is a lot of (justified) worry about people being able to gimmick the results from entirely non-secure electronic voting machines. I have yet to see any verifiable reports of endemic nationwide electoral fraud of any other sort.

Care to back that assertion up?

-Arlos

[brinstar]

fringe people are saying the iowa caucus went screwy and that GOP fudged the results to avoid handing a W to ron paul

of course i am skeptical of pretty much anything the paulbots claim, but there is also a story of a guy who says "i saw a total of 2 votes for romney get counted as 22 votes" (edit: which normally wouldn't matter but shit he only won by 8)

conjecture says GOP voter fraud might provide a convenient pretext for RP to bolt and run 3rd party (Lib i presume)


so two things:

1. once again, the republican motto seems to be "do as we say, not as we do"

2. if paul leaves the GOP to run Lib he'll take his bot army with him and split the conservative vote. teh lulz ensue!

[Lyion]

I'll let you google voter fraud for yourself. I will simply throw up an article that summarizes my opinion fairly well and why I think E-verify and valid ID cross checked through it is necessary.

This morning I took part in a sacred civic obligation: I voted. The casting of one’s ballot is a truly egalitarian American experience — everyone has an equal say in how they will be represented in matters of governance. It doesn’t matter if you’re rich or poor, religious or not, a Mayflower descendant or a newly sworn-in U.S. citizen.

But in Maryland, my rights were infringed upon when my identity as a legal voter was rendered insignificant. Nobody asked me for identification, nor was anyone obliged to do so. As a result of this inaction, voter fraud will not only be tolerated but is rendered likely.

Maryland is one of 23 states that maintain the most minimal standards for voter identification, only requiring that you show ID (photo not required) when you register, and never again after that. This allows anyone who knows your full name and polling location to vote in your place with no recourse.

Liberals led by the ACLU, the League of Women Voters, and the NAACP contend that voter-ID requirements are designed to suppress minority and Democratic votes, but that has been proven wrong time and time again. In 2008, Georgia and Indiana, two states where identification is required to vote without a provisional ballot, saw historically high turnout among African-Americans and Democrats. In Indiana, where voter-ID laws are strictest, Democratic turnout increased by over 8 percent in 2008 over 2004; this was the largest increase in the nation. Georgia’s voter-ID requirements got stricter between 2004 and 2008, but African-American turnout increased. And when compared to other states with similar populations but less strict voter laws, the argument that the turnout would have been even higher without the enforcement is laid to rest.

A Rasmussen poll in August 2010 found that a full 82 percent of Americans believe all voters should show photo ID before they are allowed to vote, representing a majority in every single demographic group. This is not a fringe opinion, but a national consensus.

Retired liberal Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens, a former anti-corruption lawyer from Chicago, agrees that lax voter-ID requirements lead to voter fraud. In the 6–3 majority opinion upholding Indiana’s new law, he writes: “That flagrant examples of [voter] fraud…have been documented throughout this Nation’s history by respected historians and journalists…demonstrate[s] that not only is the risk of voter fraud real but that it could affect the outcome of a close election.”

In ruling after ruling, strict voter-ID laws have been found to be constitutional and not in violation of the Voting Rights Act. Yet that doesn’t stop liberal activist groups from spending countless court hours and taxpayer resources working towards an end goal that invites voter fraud.

Most recently, the Obama administration has made clear that it will not prosecute illegal immigrants who violate our voting laws by taking part in a process that is explicitly for U.S. citizens only. When Putnam County, Tenn., recently reported to the Obama administration that a person had voted illegally before becoming a citizen, the response was simply to ask if he had been taken off the voter rolls. This of course ignored that it is a felony under federal law to register and vote in elections as a non-citizen.

Illegal-immigration advocates address these instances as innocent mistakes, but the federal voter-registration form explicitly asks at the top, “Are you a citizen of the United States of America?” It then asks you to swear and reaffirm that statement when you sign your name. How many free passes do certain criminals get in the Holder Justice Department?

The point here is not that people should be denied their right to vote. Quite the opposite: Legal and registered citizens should not be denied their right to have their votes fully count by illegal ballots cast mere feet away.

The yearning to cast a vote in an American election is admirable but nevertheless punishable if done illegally. Those who wish to defraud and corrupt the process should not be given an easy path.

It’s time for all 50 states to have commonsense voter-ID laws that require photo identification every time you vote. It is the only way to protect the integrity and security of this sacred obligation for millions of legally registered Americans. Please, will someone check my ID?

[Arlos]

I repeat: Do you have proof that voter fraud is in any way a major, endemic problem in this country. I have yet to see any such.

Your article, obviously cribbed from some hyper-partisan source like Newsmax or something, mentions one case of 1 individual, and a lot of hyperbole. You are stating that voter fraud not only is occurring, it is doing so pervasively and on a massive scale. Barring any corroborating evidence of this, I'm going conclude that it is simply untrue, and that the entire furor really DOES have ulterior motives, since it is a set of sweeping changes in search of a problem.

-Arlos

[brinstar]

Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens, a former anti-corruption lawyer from Chicago

OMG CHICAGO STYLE POLITICS!


1. i am not against requiring valid photo ID to cast a vote in principle but i do feel that concerns raised by the left are legit. i know it's a dirty word these days, but what about compromise - or even *gasp* cooperation? the right says "must have photo ID" and the left says "poor/minorities can't/won't go get photo IDs" so how about we make valid photo IDs free and really easy to get? it would be a feat to accomplish, yeah, but there's got to be a middle path somewhere. problem is, the politics of polarization means neither side wants to look for it.

2. but what i'm really curious about is why tighter regulation on election mechanics is almost exclusively a GOP* issue. quote retired liberal judges at me all you want, but when this push is coming entirely from one side, only a true toadie would remain unskeptical.


*then there's that clown show known as the tea party - whose prominent leaders believe that only property-owners should be allowed to vote

[Lyion]

As I said google it for yourself. There are plenty of examples of fraud and many studies done, as well as people indicted and convicted. Not to mention every election cycle there are thousands of dead people who miraculously come back to life to vote.

Anyways, we have to show a photo ID to board an airplane, cash a check, buy liquor, enter office buildings in large cities, and before you get to leave the country, so why not require a photo ID before you can vote? I'm all for having free photo IDs for those who cannot afford them. In fact, every state that has passed a voter ID law has also ensured that the very small percentage of individuals who do not have a photo ID can easily obtain one for free if they can't afford it.

I have yet to hear a really valid reason why photo ID & E-verify should not be required, except by those liberal bomb throwers who 'wink wink, nod nod' know what it really does but like it's outcome.

Third world countries have more valid elections than we do, which is a shame.

[Arlos]

You are the one making a rather extraordinary claim, it is incumbent on you to provide supporting evidence for your claim. Come on, that is a basic rule to every discussion. Unsupported assertions on a message board aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Oh, and I repeat: wide-spread endemic fraud. Individual 1-of cases at random do not in any way back up your assertions. You claim vast amounts of voting dead people and other cases of malfeasance. I have heard of no such in any sort of mainstream media account. (note, right-wing punditry, like FreedomWorks, Newsmax, and Fox News do not count. Find me something from an AP report, maybe something from the BBC, or a major metropolitan newspaper other than well-known rags like the New York Post and the Washington Times, which is run by the Moonies) So, care to supply ANY evidence to support your claim?

Also, none of those things you listed are expressly delineated constitutionally-protected rights. Voting is. ANYTHING that inhibits ANY legal voter from exercising that right is, and should remain, unconstitutional.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

.

[Harrison]

I don't understand why anyone would be against providing photo id to vote. IMO it makes 100% sense to do so

[Kaemon]

I have to disagree. While these may slightly raise costs in the short term for a few, by and large this will be better for the entire process.

Now, we just need to incorporate E-verify into elections to stop the rampant fraud that occurs there.

Don't turn this into an election thing.

Lyion, unless you run a restaurant, don't tell me how it will be better for the entire process. This process is going to hamstring the restaurant business and bring speed of service and cleanliness to a grinding halt.

Here's the glaring truth, not one snot nosed American will want to wash dishes or cook at $10-13 dollars an hour until 3am. It's beneath them. Everyone wants to be a server or host. Everyone cries they don't have a job, hell I'm looking to hire 3 cooks and 1 dishwasher, I've been looking for 3 months now. Everyone that's come in has gotten rejected by E-verify.
Case in point, I spoke to an applicant today about a dishwashing position, he wanted mornings only and didn't want to work Sundays. I told him I only had nighttime available and needed Sunday availability. He looked at me as if I insulted him and left. 20 mins later, I translated the offer to a Mexican, he happily agreed and would start tonight. Unfortunately, he had to go through the process of E-verify and was turned down.

In the end, everyone will have to offer more money per hour and to offset this, menu prices will go up, take that in conjunction with oil prices continuing to go up. You have a classic case of inflation in the restaurant business.

You'll be paying for more, and getting less. The days of over sized plates are long gone my friend.

Everyone wants illegal aliens out because they're stealing job...bullshit. No one wants to do the job Mexican's, Guatamalens and any other central american will do because we deem it's beneath us. Everyone wants to make 18-20 bucks an hour, work half as hard and wanting breaks, calling out sick on beautiful days, so on and so on. These people serve a purpose, they're not stealing jobs, they're taking jobs no one else wants. Making the economy move forward.

[brinstar]

^^^ boomshakalaka.

also, just gonna put this here *ahem*

The Myth of Voter Fraud from the NYTimes, sorry Arlos even the Moonies agree

[Lyion]

Kaemon, while I empathize with your point regarding costs and entitled Americans the premise of your post ignores the larger overlaying problem in this country. Long term roofers can't find work because they are displaced by those same illegals who work for far under market rates. Construction jobs go to the companies leveraging the same undocumented workers. Companies are happy to send work to whomever does it cheap, regardless of the effect it has on the economy and the average American.

Brinstar, that was an *editorial*. The circular reasoning is akin to saying drunk driving doesn't actually kill someone so it shouldn't be illegal. Requiring photo ID and E-Verify would make our elections far more valid and remove the issue of dead voters on the rolls and ineligible people voting. Is there a valid reason you would like to argue against simple, fair precautions in place that make the process less open to fraud and which does not disenfranchise anyone?

Hey, I'll throw up an editorial too!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/31/opinion/p ... raud-laws/

(CNN) -- In an outrageous recent fundraising letter the Democratic National Committee solicited funds from the party faithful on the grounds that the DNC was the last remaining bulwark against a series of anti-election-fraud initiatives "in more than 40 states."

That's right, the DNC appears to be standing up for potential fraud — presumably because ending it would disenfranchise at least two of its core constituencies: the deceased and double-voters.

Across America, Republican and Democratic legislatures have put forth voter identification laws this year to protect the constitutional values of equal protection and one person one vote, and for good reason. Election fraud is a real and persistent threat to our electoral system, with allegations cropping up in every election cycle. Just in December, for example, a prosecutor in Indiana launched an investigation into allegations that some fraudulent signatures on petitions may have allowed President Obama to get on the ballot in that state's 2008 primary.

Unsurprisingly, 69% of 1,000 likely voters, according to a recent Rasmussen poll, believe voters should be required to show photo identification before being allowed to vote.

But Democrats in Washington disagree. And in their fundraising letter they even went so far as to reference the despicable Jim Crow laws of the segregated South. Will Crossley, the DNC's counsel and voter protection director, wrote, "Republicans are introducing and passing laws that make voting more difficult." He went on, "If that infuriates you...there's something you can do right now. Help us keep up the fight by donating to support Democrats."

But the DNC's premise is fundamentally flawed. It rests on the assumption that it is harder for certain groups of voters to cast their ballots because they don't have access to proper identification. This overlooks the fact that states include provisions to provide free identification cards to those who can't afford them. Moreover, a study for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, reported that voter participation increased for the 2008 election in states such as Indiana and Georgia, even after the passage of stronger elections laws. The disastrous results that opponents predicted never materialized.

Voter identification laws are common sense and an effective way to combat election fraud. And, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, they are constitutional. In 2008, the court upheld Indiana's voter ID law, saying it could find no evidence that the new requirements burdened voters.

And that all raises the question: Why the hostile letter from the DNC?

I'm afraid it may reveal something very disturbing: Democrats know they benefit from election fraud.

Consider the sordid tale of the liberal organization Acorn, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. In 2008, Acorn was responsible for 400,000 faulty voter registrations, including those of deceased individuals, nonresidents, previously registered voters and fictional characters. Other voter fraud allegations surfaced in at least 10 states. That same year, the outcome of the election in many states was determined by a fraction of that many votes. In other words, fraudulent registrations have the potential for significant consequences.

And here's the thing to remember: Acorn's political arm enthusiastically supported Obama's candidacy, and Democrats have long defended the organization.

There are other examples of faulty or fraudulent voting. In the 2010 midterms, 5,000 non-citizens voted in the Colorado Senate race, according to a study by the Colorado State Department. It also found that 12,000 non-citizens were registered to vote in Colorado. In Illinois, an analysis of Census data earlier this year revealed that 14 counties have more registered voters than voting-age residents, due in part, one county clerk said, to slowness in purging voter rolls when residents move.

In my home state of Wisconsin, recent legislation attempted to curb voting irregularities, which were of such concern that the Milwaukee Police Department commissioned an unprecedented two-year investigation. The 2008 report warned that some instances of illegal voting in the 2004 election left open the possibility of an "illegal organized attempt to influence the outcome" of a state election.

In an effort to show that voter fraud is not isolated to a handful of states, the Republican National Lawyers Association recently began documenting known cases of voter fraud. To date, they have found at least one documented case of fraud in each of 46 states over the last decade. And no one knows how many instances of fraud go unnoticed.

Something has to change. If not, fraud will dilute the power of the individual's vote and destroy the integrity of our system. The sole purpose of voter identification laws is to avoid that fate. The right of every citizen to have a vote must be vigorously defended, and these laws protect that right. No matter what Washington Democrats say, there is absolutely no evidence that anyone has, or would be, disenfranchised.

[Arlos]

Brinstar: It's the WASHINGTON Times that is run by the Moonies, not the NY Times. The New York Post is a Rupert Murdoch mouthpiece, so is basically fox news in print.

And Lyion still hasn't provided any evidence whatsoever to back up his assertion, despite repeated calls to do so. As a result, I'm going to declare his claim to be completely debunked and invalid. If you can't support it, it doesn't count.


I still don't understand the insane furor over illegals in any case. I guess it's just the next turn in the usual US anti-immigrant frenzy. Pretty much every large ethnic, racial, religious or societal group that immigrated here has been the subject of rabid anti-immigrant fervor for a long time after they arrived. Just look at history, and think about, say, when waves of the Irish first started arriving, and the frenzy they whipped up. Oh, and hey, you think all of them were LEGAL immigrants? Hah. Now it's the Latino's turn to get pilloried, both because of their number, and because they fit into this country's historic racism against anyone who's skin isn't pure white.

What really DOES make me laugh, though, is the insistence on the right of deporting everyone here illegally. That utterly and totally fails the reality test. Simply logistically impossible, even if you WERE willing to deploy the military domestically as part of a "Papers, please!" sweep. Will never happen. Not to mention, what about when mistakes are made? Hell, they are ALREADY doing it, just look at that case that's been in the news recently, with the 16 year old girl getting deported to Colombia.

-Arlos

[brinstar]

Brinstar, that was an *editorial*. The circular reasoning is akin to saying drunk driving doesn't actually kill someone so it shouldn't be illegal. Requiring photo ID and E-Verify would make our elections far more valid and remove the issue of dead voters on the rolls and ineligible people voting.

listen sally, i fuckin' KNOW i linked an editorial. did you follow any of the links it contained? i followed the links in yours, and across the board, each article eventually went part of the way back on its headline claim. ELEVEN THOUSAND MORE VOTERS REGISTERED IN COUNTY X THAN ACTUAL RESIDENTS, OMG! ...(election officials then admit that almost all of these are people that moved and didn't tell anyone, but GOPtards have already sounded the alarm). guess what, even the most sophisticated systems are still designed by humans and as such are fallible. error =/= fraud.


that's all beside the point though, which is this:

Is there a valid reason you would like to argue against simple, fair precautions in place that make the process less open to fraud and which does not disenfranchise anyone?

NO THERE ISN'T!!! but i sure as SHIT don't trust the GOP to write laws that guarantee the bolded part, and neither the fuck should you.

[Lyion]

I don't trust any politician which is why I like E-Verify and Photo ID requirements. They are available to poor people free of charge.

Kaem's point is our work laws are weighted against small businesses and restaurants which are valid. The solution there is a better immigration process that allows for cooperation and not just cheap slave labor at the cost of US jobs.

Your post has nothing to do with my points, Arlos. I am curious if you support E-Verify or Photo IDs? If not, I'm curious why? I'm for good immigration reform and I'm certainly against deporting people who have lived here a long time and been good citizens. It seems a lot of my liberal friends are against having valid elections, and better safeguards for no good reason. The comedy here is there could be wholesale fraud, but the process is so poor we probably lack the means to even know if it's occurring.

[Spazz]

I dont think proving who you are to vote is really that big of a deal. Most normal people have some kind of id so its all good. If your too ignorant to have basic identification than you dont get to vote its really that simple.

but i sure as SHIT don't trust the GOP to write laws that guarantee the bolded part, and neither the fuck should you.

brinstar sometimes you crack me up. Whenever I read your posts I do so with andy dick voice and it makes them so much better.

Lyion lets be real here. If there is any type of vote rigging shananagins going on it isnt going on by poor people with no id if you get what im saying. I would think with the kind of money these guys have to blow and the friends they keep it would be easier to outright buy an election than steal it through some fucked up voter fraud scheme.

Ive been screaming my message at you people on the nt for a while and you guys just ignore me. All of our political problems stem from the fact that these kings of men have armies to do they bidding, have more money than god and can buy elections can buy justice and can buy you and I with ease.

[brinstar]

brinstar sometimes you crack me up. Whenever I read your posts I do so with andy dick voice and it makes them so much better.

hahaha

[Drem]

thankfully my restaurant is full of white kids that actually work hard and one latino. dunno if he's legal or not, don't care. i definitely understand kaemon's point tho. some places hire latinos exclusively for BoH stuff. most of the chain restaurants around here, no matter what style cuisine, are basically run by a latino crew. most of the good local restaurants are 95% white with latino dishwashers. this coupled with minimum wage rising is going to make an interesting year for the service industry

[Zanchief]

Yea whiteys work harder then the latino's...wtf man.

[Menelvir]

sacred civic obligation

Only one sentence into the article and I caught the strong whiff of rhetoric already.

everyone has an equal say

Agreed. Any one person's saying something, presumably to our national elected officials, via their vote, is just as worthless as any other's (i.e. 0 = 0 simple reflexive property). n.b. the vote can still have worth and meaning to the individual voting, but whether that means something in the greater scheme that is the US political system is another animal.

Nobody asked me for identification,

In this age of identity theft, this guy is complaining because no one asked for his ID? He should feel thankful, not slighted.

82 percent of Americans believe all voters should show photo ID

I find it conspicuously difficult to believe that that many Americans care about voting generally, much less about showing photo ID to do so.

lax voter-ID requirements lead to voter fraud

If there's fraud in the system, I think it has less to do with lax ID requirements, and more to do with money from corporate interests.

it (the Obama administration) will not prosecute illegal immigrants who violate our voting laws by taking part

Illegal immigrants have more important things to worry about than illegally voting in the absurdity that is our national political system. This is the least of their concerns.

So no, I don't see any need to throw any more money at our political system in the form of ID verification, electronic or otherwise.

[Drem]

Yea whiteys work harder then the latino's...wtf man.

what? do you mean "than the latinos" ? and still.......what ?

also, nice post, menelvir

[Zanchief]

You're basically saying you're happy you work in a place that doesn't employ to many Hispanics because they don't work hard. It's a horseshit thing to say.

[Lyion]

I believe Drem's point was to refute an earlier one made by Kaem that many people feel too 'entitled' to wash dishes, scrub floors, or be a short order cook. Thus those jobs go to people coming from countries with no jobs who will do that sort of labor.

Since you empathize with the entitlement mentality I figured you would get the point. It had nothing to do with black, white, or latino or racebaiting.