What's your view on tipping servers?

[Jay]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-wals ... 49644.html

Having waited tables through much of college at ESPN Zone I found this to be an amazing read. There's an occasional kernel of corn in the steaming turd that is HuffPo.

Personally, 15% is the minimum. And no, I don't sit there with a tip calculator. I just eyeball the total cost of the meal, move the decimal 1 to left and drop another half of that total onto that and round up. If you were barely ok, maybe even made a few mistakes, you're gonna get your 15%. If you made an effort to be nice and prompt, which most servers I've ever encountered do, I typically tip 20-25%. I've stiffed someone on tip maybe 3 times ever. They have to be horrendous and outwardly rude and I mean REALLY rude. Sometimes someone has a bad day and they suck. When it's really bad, I'll give like 10% and I'll even tell them hey, you coulda done better and I hope everything is ok. To get stiffed you have to be a monumental ass. Like one waiter who knocked my drink into my lap then proceeded to tell me, "That's what you get for having your drink there when I'm trying to put your plate down." or the lady who took my order, let me wait 45 minutes, and when I asked her about my order she tells me, "Well you came in and ordered when it was time for me to take my break. Not my problem."

[brinstar]

always makes me laugh when people can't figure out 15% in their head. it's not astrophysics, you're just an idiot

anyway yeah i usually land somewhere between 15%-25%, depending on the nearest round number. sometimes i go up to 25%-30% if they're awesome, or if i overhear someone at another table (or, very rarely, at my own) being a total dick to them

only other thing worth mentioning is that i am less generous when i go to a buffet. tacking 25% onto the bill when you've spent the last 90 minutes lavishing attentive service on me is completely reasonable, but if i'm at huhot and all you have to do for me is refill my water and remove my used plates, chances are you won't get much more than 15% out of me (20% if my glass of water never goes empty [i drink a lot of water at huhot lol])

[Zanchief]

I always stay between 15-20%.

I almost never tip at a takeout place though, and it pisses me off that they have a tip jar.

For delivery I usually hardcap it around $10. It takes the same effort to bring thai food to my house as it does pizza. One just costs a lot more.

[leah]

Personally, 15% is the minimum. And no, I don't sit there with a tip calculator. I just eyeball the total cost of the meal, move the decimal 1 to left and drop another half of that total onto that and round up. If you were barely ok, maybe even made a few mistakes, you're gonna get your 15%. If you made an effort to be nice and prompt, which most servers I've ever encountered do, I typically tip 20-25%. I've stiffed someone on tip maybe 3 times ever. They have to be horrendous and outwardly rude and I mean REALLY rude. Sometimes someone has a bad day and they suck. When it's really bad, I'll give like 10% and I'll even tell them hey, you coulda done better and I hope everything is ok.

this exactly. and i will also always use my tip to make the total a round number (i.e. $36 instead of $36.27).

i really think spending any amount of time working in foodservice does wonders for how a person perceives and treats servers. they get paid dimp and a lot of things are beyond their control, such as how long food takes to come out or their section being overcrammed or whatever. i also think you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat servers.

[brinstar]

i also think you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat servers.

i have always always always believed this

[Zanchief]

One thing I should also mention. I abide this social contract as it is required of me, but I despise it. I hate the idea of tipping. I hate the debasement of those serving me that they should feel the need to beg for a tip, as do I the feeling of guilt that is passed on to me. It doesn't really work as it's supposed to, and mostly just favors hot girls. I think compensation should be the authority of your employer and not the patron. I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating. A professional business should not allow tipping and compensate their staff accordingly (I know, not going to happen).

[Drem]

One thing I should also mention. I abide this social contract as it is required of me, but I despise it. I hate the idea of tipping. I hate the debasement of those serving me that they should feel the need to beg for a tip, as do I the feeling of guilt that is passed on to me. It doesn't really work as it's supposed to, and mostly just favors hot girls. I think compensation should be the authority of your employer and not the patron. I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating. A professional business should not allow tipping and compensate their staff accordingly (I know, not going to happen).

Just seeing someone actually write this or think this way blows my mind

Anyways, as a service industry guy, can't not tip. Even the people i work with. It's a karma thing at this point

[Drem]

I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating.

ahahahahahahahahahahah

hold on

aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahah

[Jay]

One thing I should also mention. I abide this social contract as it is required of me, but I despise it. I hate the idea of tipping. I hate the debasement of those serving me that they should feel the need to beg for a tip, as do I the feeling of guilt that is passed on to me. It doesn't really work as it's supposed to, and mostly just favors hot girls. I think compensation should be the authority of your employer and not the patron. I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating. A professional business should not allow tipping and compensate their staff accordingly (I know, not going to happen).

What do you think that's gonna do to your food cost? Keep in mind, lets say a server makes 12 bucks an hour. In CA at least, that ends up costing me 17 an hour. Enjoy your 20 dollar eggs and hash browns.

[Ganzo]

One thing I should also mention. I abide this social contract as it is required of me, but I despise it. I hate the idea of tipping. I hate the debasement of those serving me that they should feel the need to beg for a tip, as do I the feeling of guilt that is passed on to me. It doesn't really work as it's supposed to, and mostly just favors hot girls. I think compensation should be the authority of your employer and not the patron. I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating. A professional business should not allow tipping and compensate their staff accordingly (I know, not going to happen).

Are you quoting Reservoir Dogs?

[Zanchief]

One thing I should also mention. I abide this social contract as it is required of me, but I despise it. I hate the idea of tipping. I hate the debasement of those serving me that they should feel the need to beg for a tip, as do I the feeling of guilt that is passed on to me. It doesn't really work as it's supposed to, and mostly just favors hot girls. I think compensation should be the authority of your employer and not the patron. I never know who I'm supposed to tip or how much. It's very frustrating. A professional business should not allow tipping and compensate their staff accordingly (I know, not going to happen).

Are you quoting Reservoir Dogs?

No

[Zanchief]

Hi Drem, welcome to an adult conversation. So far, you're not doing very well.

Let me explain myself in simpler terms. Tipping is a way for restaurants to get away with underpaying their staff and you actually support this, Drem? You think tipping is a fair way to operate? It's a way to get salary off the books. It's also an unregulated way to pay people that is very biased. Do you think it's fair for an employer to pay woman more than men, and attractive woman more then ugly ones? "Sorry Debbie, but you're pushing a deuce, you're getting a pay cut." Why do you think this is bad for restaurant people? I always tip. It is needed, as that is the way society has constructed that exchange, and as I live in it, I abide it's rules, even if in this case, I don't agree with them.

To the point of not knowing how much to tip, what's so funny about this? When you visit other countries do you always know how much to tip? What about at a hotel or resort to the person who brings up your bags? What percentage do you tip your movers? What about someone who delivered something to your house? Each have their own set of rules which exist solely so the business can deceive the client into thinking their product is worth less than it is, and to shelter taxable income. I hate the game.

Jay, not so hot with math, are you. $20 eggs and hash brown? Sure, if you're bill normally comes to $20 after tip. That's what I'm saying. Raise wages accordingly and remove the social contract. It's horrible. It's seems people support it only out of habit and they think people who don't are somehow against waiting staff (which I am in no way).

[Zanchief]

It's a karma thing at this point

Also, here's another free life lesson. There's no such thing as Karma. If that's your only reason for tipping, I free you of your burden.

[Reynaldo]

I stay around 15-20 as well but will go way above or way below depending if the server is exceptional or a douche.

Like I'll go to Chilis sometimes and eat chips and salsa in the bar, and get a cup of a chili and drink water. Be completely stuffed and my total bill is like 2 bucks. If the server keeps refilling my stuff and is cool about it I'll leave 10 bucks. Or I'll go to Outback and if the person is inattentive and doesn't fulfill what I would consider to be basic functions of a server, I'll leave 2 bucks on a 40 dollar meal.

I certainly don't believe in the bottom line of 15% if you get horrible service.

[10sun]

While dining:
int((total bill * .15) + (# of drink refills)) + int(total bill+1)-(total bill)

I'll remove a dollar if the service sucked & add one if my drink never went empty.
$1 goes on the credit card and the rest is cash.

While drinking:
if(int(Bottle/Can Price + 1) - Bottle/Can Price > .75, change, $1)
$1 per drink poured.
$2 per drink mixed.

Barbershop:
Whatever the change would be from a $20.
I think my barbershop charges $13 for a hot lather straight shave & a haircut, but I have never paid attention.

I also give other people tips randomly.
Eg. Verizon store a few months back activating a new phone I did not buy through them, I gave the employee who hooked me up $20 extra for his help.

I never tip on carryout orders except at food trucks.
I never have food delivered.

[Jay]

Hi Drem, welcome to an adult conversation. So far, you're not doing very well.

Let me explain myself in simpler terms. Tipping is a way for restaurants to get away with underpaying their staff and you actually support this, Drem? You think tipping is a fair way to operate? It's a way to get salary off the books. It's also an unregulated way to pay people that is very biased. Do you think it's fair for an employer to pay woman more than men, and attractive woman more then ugly ones? "Sorry Debbie, but you're pushing a deuce, you're getting a pay cut." Why do you think this is bad for restaurant people? I always tip. It is needed, as that is the way society has constructed that exchange, and as I live in it, I abide it's rules, even if in this case, I don't agree with them.

To the point of not knowing how much to tip, what's so funny about this? When you visit other countries do you always know how much to tip? What about at a hotel or resort to the person who brings up your bags? What percentage do you tip your movers? What about someone who delivered something to your house? Each have their own set of rules which exist solely so the business can deceive the client into thinking their product is worth less than it is, and to shelter taxable income. I hate the game.

Jay, not so hot with math, are you. $20 eggs and hash brown? Sure, if you're bill normally comes to $20 after tip. That's what I'm saying. Raise wages accordingly and remove the social contract. It's horrible. It's seems people support it only out of habit and they think people who don't are somehow against waiting staff (which I am in no way).

Wage raises means restaurants will make up the increase in your food cost. Hence the eggs and hash browns you woulda paid 10 dollars plus tax and tip amounting to something like 13 dollars is now 20 because a business has to make up for paying every server 10 more dollars an hour. My math is fine.

Here's the thing about giving someone a raise. The dollar amount you're paying your employee is not proportionate to the dollar amount you're spending to increase their wage. Giving a waiter a 10 dollar raise to not take tips anymore means I'm paying 13-15 dollars more an hour for his services after taxes. My waiter's potential income for the night has now been capped and your food cost is higher. Everyone loses.

[Zanchief]

Here's the thing about giving someone a raise. The dollar amount you're paying your employee is not proportionate to the dollar amount you're spending to increase their wage. Giving a waiter a 10 dollar raise to not take tips anymore means I'm paying 13-15 dollars more an hour for his services after taxes. My waiter's potential income for the night has now been capped and your food cost is higher. Everyone loses.

You're either being purposely obtuse or you're the shittiest Asian at math.

Since this is merely a theoretical exercise I'm saying take the money I would normally tip, raise the prices of the food accordingly, and raise wadges by that amount. Winners? Me, people who do their taxes properly, ugly waiters. Losers? The guys who eat at the bar because the restaurant has all the hot girls work there and their wife would kill them if they got caught at a strip club.

Let's take the reverse approach. Imagine another industry suddenly applying the same principal. Why not tip your pilots a percentage of your airfare for every flight? That seems like a fair idea eh? Let's hand pilots wads of sweaty bills instead of an actual paycheck. He could fill a suitcase full of it and bang the flight attendance on it at some sleazy hotel! Maybe we should pay our teachers on tips too. Should improve performance, right? Since that is the next argument to the great equalizer of meritocracy that is tipping. At the end of the school year we'll just have all the parents leave bricks of cash on the teachers desk instead of an apple. Screw income tax after all. Let's let these parents who've named they're kids Jaxxxon and Alexxxis decide who deserves that raise.

[brinstar]

i actually agree with zanchief here: tipping is absolutely just a scheme for service industry businesses to push the responsibility of employees' wages directly onto the consumer for the sake of their bottom line. i also understand jay's point perfectly well in that paying servers a living wage would crank up the cost of eating there. in the end i think it amounts to six of one and half dozen of the other, and it's kind of a moot point because i don't see it ever changing. it's clearly an anti-labor policy, yet as a pro-labor progressive i willfully (and indeed happily) participate in it. these are not mutually exclusive philosophies.


back on topic -

there's a place downtown called Dat's Taste of the East that i go to probably 3-4 times a month. it's basically generic asian food, no real specialty dishes or anything, but it's pretty inexpensive and extremely fast - $6 for a full meal, which includes two crab rangoons (plus a bowl of soup if you dine in), and the average time elapsed between placing an order and eating/leaving with it is about 10 mins. Dat himself is super friendly and hustles like mad, and often runs the store without any employees. and i mean that literally - more often than not he'll actually run back and forth between the dining room and the kitchen. whenever i eat there i make sure to tip way more than "normal"

the reason i bring it up is that a couple months ago i ate lunch there with a couple of friends, and ordered my favorite dish (orange chicken with carrots added, fried rice). nearly a month later i went in to get takeaway, and ordered the same thing. he unpins a ticket from his little bulletin board and asked if it was mine from the previous time, saying that i'm the only one who ever orders orange chicken with carrots. my first thought is uh oh, someone's card bounced, i'm gonna have to cover it - but then with his adorably broken english he explains to me that our server that day had overcharged me $1 for the carrots. apparently carrots aren't supposed to cost extra (i didn't know that), so he saved the ticket for a month just so he could knock a dollar off my next order. all this over a dollar! i was so happy i tipped him nearly 100% on the order lol

anyway that is why you treat your servers right (and also why you eat local whenever possible, but that's probably another discussion for another thread)

[Jay]

For every employee, I have to pay them their wage, plus the tax on their withheld federal, medicare, social security and I have to pay a separate small business (SE) tax and FUTA. Minimum wage in California is 8 bucks regardless of if you live off of tips or otherwise. In some states it's as low as 2 something. Average waiter in Northern CA makes about 100 bucks a night. Divide that by 8 hours per shift and add that with their hourly and that's about 20.5 dollars p/h in my county at your local Denny's or Denny's analog. Let's say I'm not gonna match that and I pay them a fair wage of 15 p/h. That's a 7 dollar per hour increase and more in taxes and my employee ends up making less. Now I have to hike the food price up to stay on track with my profit margin.

Hiking prices isn't just about making the numbers reflect what I lost in wages. I have to account for projected loss of business from my prices going up as well. Not to mention having to pay medical for full time employees and the additional per hour cost incurred during prep time when food isn't being served. End of the day that results in:

Increased prices for you
Less wages for my employees OR less employees on payroll meaning lower quality of service
Less traffic for me if I'm to maintain my profit margin.

Of course, jacking up my prices to meet my margins means that I will lose business over time because people are paying more for the same plate of eggs and hash browns. If I have to pay a kid 7 bucks more an hour to serve you, believe me, my prices increase more than 15%. Also, any incentive a server had to work hard and treat you better than the bare minimum of expected service is gone. Is it doable? Yes. Does it benefit anyone? Not really. If you don't like tipping, eat take out or fast food. Also my example is based on California's standards. Heaven forbid some waiter who makes 2 bucks an hour requires a 10-12 dollar an hour raise to make ends meet without having to accept tips.

[Drem]

Don't bother, he doesn't understand. He thinks a restaurant could actually afford to just pay their employees what he's tipping them. Which is absurd and uninformed. Aside from everything you already stated, Jay, it doesn't compensate for slow days (days where there aren't many tips at all). If you upped wages across the boards to make up for assumed tips, the business would fold in under a year. Or, like Jay said, the price of your $10 plate would be $13 or 14. That $25 steak would be over $30. No one would go to restaurants anymore. Tips are.... well..... a tip of the hat for doing a good job. It's a human thing. And no matter what you think about any of it, if you tip low, or don't tip at all, no one at that restaurant is going to give you good service again. They'll be saying in the boh "oh fuck, that idiot that doesn't tip is here again." Especially if you do it with this completely unrealistic viewpoint that you feel you shouldn't have to because it's the owner of the restaurant's fault that the employees don't make enough money. Do you also not tip food cart dudes? Valet parking? The dude at Kinko's that goes way out of his way to help you? Maybe you're just a bitter person

And don't get me wrong, I don't even take tips (management), but doing what you propose would break the restaurant. It'd probably break most restaurants that aren't doing $10k+ days

Again, i say aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha that you're actually trying to argue about this, zanchief. It's a reality, and it isn't going to change, no matter how bitter or self-centered you want to be about it. I don't need to bring adult conversation into a thread that was written with a greedy, 10-year-old state of mind. But, I'm stubborn and I did it anyway since you apparently need this spelled out to you

[Drem]

the reason i bring it up is that a couple months ago i ate lunch there with a couple of friends, and ordered my favorite dish (orange chicken with carrots added, fried rice). nearly a month later i went in to get takeaway, and ordered the same thing. he unpins a ticket from his little bulletin board and asked if it was mine from the previous time, saying that i'm the only one who ever orders orange chicken with carrots. my first thought is uh oh, someone's card bounced, i'm gonna have to cover it - but then with his adorably broken english he explains to me that our server that day had overcharged me $1 for the carrots. apparently carrots aren't supposed to cost extra (i didn't know that), so he saved the ticket for a month just so he could knock a dollar off my next order. all this over a dollar! i was so happy i tipped him nearly 100% on the order lol

anyway that is why you treat your servers right (and also why you eat local whenever possible, but that's probably another discussion for another thread)

Yup, this is why you tip. Because it makes the employees remember your face out of the hundreds that flow through every day. They will go out of their way to make your experience even more enjoyable. It's karma. Simple as that. Be nice, get treated nice. What a fuckin concept

And just to be fair, there are a few restaurants that don't accept tips. But for the most part, it's an established thing that isn't going to go away any time soon. The pilot argument is stupid. The teacher argument is stupid. They all make bank compared to a service industry worker and you know it

The reason i posted what i did earlier is because this is completely absurd to me. I actually have to sit here and try to explain an established system to someone (maybe the first i've ever heard) that doesn't think they should have to tip. The being angry because a takeout place has a tip jar is fucked up, too. How self-centered can you be? You don't think some dude has to make your shitty order 5 minutes before close ? maybe you don't do that, but you seem like the type

and yeah, i realise you said you do tip 15-20%, which is right, but doing it unwillingly is just fucking bizarre to me, sorry

[Zanchief]

Jay, there's just so much wrong with what you’re saying. There is no increase in the price of the food, if tipping is an acceptable social contract. Your $10 breakfast already costs you $12. Only a stupid person would stop eating at a restaurant because the tip is included in the bill. Also all your rhetoric about wage increases and full-time and part-time is all just smoke and mirrors that isn't relevant. Employees don’t have to work more. Increase their wages by a small amount. Yes, they will be making less if they aren't declaring all of their tips as income (which I know they aren't) but the excuse that people should be given the opportunity to shelter money illegally from the IRS is hardly a rational one just because that's the way the system works now.

You operate a small business. If you were only solvent because you asked your clients to pay you cash, and in kind only paid your employees cash under the table, would that really be a solvent business model? That's basically what you’re arguing. The fact that waiting staff don't declare tips as income (illegally) isn't a reason to do away with an already shady contract. That should be a strike for it.

Also, many restaurants include the tip on the bill. They seem to operate successfully.

any incentive a server had to work hard and treat you better than the bare minimum of expected service is gone.

Well this is true of all service industries that don’t work on tips and they seem to operate just fine as well. Maybe customers shouldn't be the best judge of who should get more money (answer the hot girl gets the most). It just circumvents all wage equity laws.

If you don't like tipping, eat take out or fast food.

How about I’ll continue to eat where ever I want? As I said many times, I always tip well, and further to that, I always treat my wait staff with the utmost respect. A plate is never put on the table and taken off with me looking them in the eye and telling them thank you. I wouldn’t penalize the wait staff as they aren’t the ones who concocted this system.

[Zanchief]

Drem, you're a funny dude. Let’s sum up the conversation.

Jay: Tipping?

Brinstar: Over tipping is great.

Leah: *something about being pregnant I wasn't really paying attention*

Me: I ALWAYS TIP but here's a legitimate reason why I don't like the social contract in order to move this discussion somewhere.

Jay: Plays devil’s advocate to keep this going or simply didn't think things through, either way, he at least read what I wrote.

Drem: MOTHERFUCKING RAGE TIME BOYS! You should always tip, Zanchief! You're also greedy, a 10-year old, uniformed, absurd, self-centered and bitter.

Brinstar: Zanchief is right (the most important post in the thread).

[Narrock]

I tip 20% when they remember everything, don't make you wait 15 minutes to refill your drink, and are friendly. If a server starts fuckin up basic shit, the tip starts dropping.

[Menelvir]

When dining out, I tip 20% or more if the service is favorable, 15% or less if unfavorable.

That said, I very rarely dine in restaurants, save on special occasions. I usually eat cold cereal for breakfast - a sandwich, apple, and coffee for lunch during the week - and prepare a hot meal for dinner.

My feeling is that of late the cost of groceries and basic foodstuffs is climbing fairly ridiculously, and moreover, the last few times I had been to restaurants, the portions seemed noticeably smaller.

So while I have nothing against tipping, I believe restaurant dining generally is not of sufficient value for the cost to justify doing it on a regular basis.

The cost of fresh fruit and vegetables for a couple of weeks blows my fucking mind -- restaurant dining is largely a luxury I can do without, my money is mostly better spent elsewhere.