After death

[Ganzo]

p.s. Vonk, I need a jew emoticon

I could probably find a hasidic jew smiley... would this offend?

would be exactly what i want, don't worry about offending me it's NT

[labbats]

I'd prefer a smiley face mozza ball.

Although I'm not Jewish.

[Lyion]

I will no longer point my finger and say, "This is how it is" and "This is definitely why your religion is wrong." I will try to use more tact, respect, and sensitivity. On the other side of the coin, I urge many of you to open the Bible and start reading, and get into discussions, and really delve into Scripture like you never have before. Let's discuss things on a rational level.

Swear by this?

Seriously... cuz I'll hold you to it.

Sig Material.

Stick to this philosophy and nobody will have any issues with your posting Mindia.

[kaharthemad]

You guys believe he will stick to it and your either braindead or high as a fucking kite. I know for a fact neither of you are Schiavo material....so if you are not sharing...your not caring. pass the hooka.

[Narrock]

I will no longer point my finger and say, "This is how it is" and "This is definitely why your religion is wrong." I will try to use more tact, respect, and sensitivity. On the other side of the coin, I urge many of you to open the Bible and start reading, and get into discussions, and really delve into Scripture like you never have before. Let's discuss things on a rational level.

Swear by this?

Seriously... cuz I'll hold you to it.

Yes, I swear to it.

[Drem]

Okay, could you please answer my question then?

[Narrock]

Okay, could you please answer my question then?

Ok, you said:

Drem wrote:
Not to start a big thread again on biblical translation (since I'm taking a course on translation, I do kind of have a handle on this topic), but I have a question.

Mindia,

Don't you feel that whichever translation of the bible you're relying on for teachings affects your overall interpretation of its teachings? We've studied a few sections briefly of the bible (mainly in Genesis) and there are a lot of word choice and idea inaccuracies due to its translation over the years. As in, older English translations vary a lot from current translations as our language changes over time.

Of course the general points still come across the same, but little discrepancies can change how someone interprets things.

Like I stated in another thread, I don't honestly feel that you're reading the real bible if you're not reading it in Latin, Greek, or Aramaic.

I am not contesting the fact that different interpretations can be ascertained from the Bible. Obviously that is the case, because we have so many different Christian denominations. I have 3 study Bibles that show at the bottom of the page what certain Hebrew words mean translated into English. But some sects r e a l l y s t r e t c h that interpration excuse.

[Ganzo]

I am not contesting the fact that different interpretations can be ascertained from the Bible. Obviously that is the case, because we have so many different Christian denominations. I have 3 study Bibles that show at the bottom of the page what certain Hebrew words mean translated into English. But some sects r e a l l y s t r e t c h that interpration excuse.

Old Testament is writen in hebrew. Now Hebrew writing is difrent from English in the way that you write consonants with vowels marked as dots under them, so word like MINDIA would look like MNDH with symbols under them to specify vowels M with symbol for I under it, D with symbol for I under it and silent H with symbol for A under it. Also adjitives like in, at, with; attached to words that they point to so WITH MINDIA is WITHMINDIA; With is ME in hebrew so would look like MiMiNDiHa(vovels small in english are symbols under leters in hebrew). Now Hebrew books usualy do not show symbols under leters so with mindia in book would be MMNDH and if you read Hebrew you know it realy is Mi Mindia.

Old Testament is like this. Because it is like this, ALOT of sentances in it can be read in difrent ways with difrent meaning. Most of Torah is like that. There is 8 difrent ways to read first sentance: In the begining God created...

That is why people study Torah all their live and write book on what they think it means. That is why you cannot say that because you saw what some word in Hebrew means you now understand what it says in Bible.

You want to truely learn, learn Hebrew and go study it in original text and after you spend time doing it, you'll see that there is never an end to that study.

[Lyion]

Except thats not really applicable for us who follow the New Testament, Ganzo.

Not to mention Saint Jerome owned the best translation of the Old Testament, IMO.

Much was also written in Aramaic, although I'm not sure if the Jews recognize it.

Interestingly enough, the Hebrew Bible used I believe is about 700+ years NEWER than the Catholic bible penned by St J.

[Narrock]

Here's one I use:

Synopsis
#1 Best-selling study Bible in the best-selling NIV translation

Study features fully revised and updated.

Over 20,000 in-text study notes.

Library of study resources at your fingertips.

Description
The World’s Best-Selling Study Bible Now Raises the Standard Even Higher

That’s because its celebrated study notes have been thoroughly revised. Turn to any page and discover the difference: over 20,000 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible’s Gold Medallion Award-winning study notes—now meticulously updated and expanded to reflect the most current conservative Bible scholarship. Unmatched in any other study Bible, these notes place at your fingertips a treasury of instant commentary from today’s top evangelical scholars. Icons highlight notes of special interest in the areas of character study, archaeology, and personal application. Simply put, you won’t find study notes as complete, up-to-date, helpful, and easy to use anywhere else.

And the benefits build from there. Like no other Bible, the Zondervan NIV Study Bible places an entire resource library for Bible study in your hands. Over 6 million people have made it their study Bible of choice. Make it yours as well. It’s one choice you’ll always be glad you made.



SPECIAL FEATURES:

NIV text remains unchanged - the most read, most trusted English-language translation.

Over 20,000 study notes. NIV translators thoroughly revised and expanded the award-winning study notes and added over 800 new notes.

Icons make important information easy to spot.

900 Character Profile icons.

425 Archaeology icons.

Almost 3,000 Personal Application icons.

Introductions and outlines provide valuable background information for each book of the Bible.

In-text maps, charts, diagrams, and illustrations right where you want them—five of which are completely new.

16 pages of full-color maps plus timelines and presentation page.

Words of Christ in red letter.

NIV concordance plus subject and study notes indexes.

Clearer.

Stronger.

Better.

Referred to daily by millions of pastors, students, church leaders, and other Bible readers around the world, the renowned Zondervan NIV Study Bible notes are the crown jewel of the world’s best-selling study Bible. These over-20,000 notes are the handiwork of the same translation team that produced this Bible’s text, the New International Version. The same exacting, conservative scholarship that brought you today’s most read, most trusted Bible translation went into creating the most celebrated, widely used Bible study notes in existence.

Why improve on what’s already outstanding? Because now it can be made even better. In the years since the 1985 publication of the first Zondervan NIV Study Bible edition, ongoing discoveries in archaeology, linguistics, biblical history, and other disciplines have suggested the need to revise the notes. Drawing on the most current scholarship, the world-class team who first created the study notes now present comprehensive revisions and additions that bring the notes thoroughly up to date. With all the changes to the study notes, however, one thing has remained unchanged—the time-tested, trusted text of the NIV itself.

You’ll be pleased with the results. If you found the original notes indispensable in clarifying obscure Bible passages and shedding light on the meaning and significance of Scripture, you’ll love how these revised and expanded notes add even greater depth to your study of God’s Word.



The New International Version (NIV) is today’s most read and most trusted English Bible translation. The goal of the NIV translation team was to produce an accurate translation and one that would have clarity and literary quality and so prove suitable for public and private reading, teaching, preaching, memorizing, and liturgical use. Today the NIV is accepted by more denominations than any other translation and is supported by a library of reference resources that is unmatched by any other translation.

Over the last five years, the editors of the NIV study Bible have painstakingly reviewed, revised, and rewritten the notes of the classic, best-selling NIV Study Bible. Over 80 percent of the notes have been revised and adapted in some way from the 1996 update, and some 30% of the notes in the text have been added, completely rewritten, replaced, or deleted. Over 800 of the more than 20,000 notes in this edition are completely new. This update reflects the most recent scholarship from a conservative academic perspective, and reflects changes to the text suggested and requested over the last 15 years by students and academics who have studied, used, and loved the NIV Study Bible.

I know you think the NIV is a poor translation Ganzo, but I would highly disagree with you. The NIV is probably the most popular translation in the world, having been put together by worldwide religious leaders, top scholars, educators, and historians. It didn't get to become the most popular translation by being inaccurate.

[Drem]

Aramaic, to my knowledge, was not an original language of any part of the bible. The OT is in Hebrew. The NT is nearly undisputedly believed to have been in Greek originally. There are some who argue toward Aramaic, but the overwhelming majority agrees that it was Greek. Though it was not too long after that it was translated into Aramaic and Latin, as it is believed that Jesus spoke these three languages.

[Ganzo]

Except thats not really applicable for us who follow the New Testament, Ganzo.

Why, do you not believe in first half of your bible?

Not to mention Saint Jerome owned the best translation of the Old Testament, IMO.

How is his version best? Who translated it? Did it incompas all posibilities of reading each portion?

Much was also written in Aramaic, although I'm not sure if the Jews recognize it.

What nonjews call "Jewish Bible" is TaNaKh(short for Torah, Neveim, Khtuvim) wich is most of Christian Old Testament. All of it is prearamaic times and writen in Hebrew. Realy though, only book of those considered Holy Bible by Judaism is Torah(5 books of Moses). Anyway even tho I'm sure at some time they were translated into Aramaic(wouldn't take much since difrence between languages is so slight it's more of a dialects than languages)

Interestingly enough, the Hebrew Bible used I believe is about 700+ years NEWER than the Catholic bible penned by St J.

I don't know if you are talking about Mishna, Mehilta, Midrash Rabba, Mishne Torah or Shulhan Aruh, because all of those were writen after Christian Bible; but non of them are Hebrew Bible. Those books are commentaries and discussions of religious laws and traditions, and collections of quotes from ancient Rabbis. Hebre Bible- Torah was writen over 3000 years ago and not a single letter been changed since. Torah is a Scroll that is hand copied by a highly trained rabbis, and is put through extencive examination by court of rabbis afterwards to make sure every symbol maches. It's been done this way since day one.

[Ganzo]

I know you think the NIV is a poor translation Ganzo, but I would highly disagree with you. The NIV is probably the most popular translation in the world, having been put together by worldwide religious leaders, top scholars, educators, and historians. It didn't get to become the most popular translation by being inaccurate.

Popularity of a book is not a sign of it's truth. The DaVinchi Code is hugely popular, yet you would not think that theories it shows are true. Catholic Bible was most published book for centuries, yet You argue it is wrong.

Mindia, trust me on this at least because i do speak multiple languages. YOU CAN NOT EVER PERFECTLY TRANSLATE FROM ONE LANGUAGE TO ANOTHER. You will always change something to make it make sence in the language you translating into. And this is just one aspect. As i said it's also has to do with multiple variations of reading same words in hebrew and because in ancient hebrew same words could mean multiple things. Does NIV encompas all posibilities and interpritations?

[Lyion]

For Christians the New Testament completely supercedes the old testament for law and direction in life. It's not that we don't follow the whole bible, it's just moreso the Sermon on the Mount is more important for us than what was taught before.

Saint Jerome was a master at languages and worked with Rabbi's to ensure he had an excellent translation of the Old Testament from the scattered Hebrew texts. He had no bias and worked in Bethlehem around 385 AD on his works.

And my understanding is part of the Tanakh was written in Aramaic. Given the Jews primarily switched to Aramaic from Hebrew 3000 years ago it makes sense much of what we have from them is written in it. There is Aramaic in the Talmud, Zohar, Book of Ezra and Book of Daniel.

I understand there are older scrolls, Ganzo, but much of what was done 2000 years ago by the Catholic Church is much older and better preserved than many of the Jewish documents. I was somewhat poking fun at you, although there are some discussions about the date and methods of copying the Torah, unlike the Catholic Bible.

[Ganzo]

For Christians the New Testament completely supercedes the old testament for law and direction in life. It's not that we don't follow the whole bible, it's just moreso the Sermon on the Mount is more important for us than what was taught before.

Why not just omit it than, if it's just legends, that been superceded by new laws.

Saint Jerome was a master at languages and worked with Rabbi's to ensure he had an excellent translation of the Old Testament from the scattered Hebrew texts. He had no bias and worked in Bethlehem around 385 AD on his works.

Did it incompas all posibilities of reading each portion? As i said few times already you can't have 1 meaning out of Torah.

And my understanding is part of the Tanakh was written in Aramaic. Given the Jews primarily switched to Aramaic from Hebrew 3000 years ago it makes sense much of what we have from them is written in it. There is Aramaic in the Talmud, Zohar, Book of Ezra and Book of Daniel.

Talmud is book of comentary on Mishna(codex of religious laws) and not part of Tanakh(hebrew with some comentaries in Aramaic). Zohar is book of comentaries on meanings behind Torah's words, also knows as Kabalah, and is not part of Tanakh(in hebrew). Ezra and Daniel are both in Hebrew as well and are part of Khtuvim, 3rd part of Tanakh. As i said before Tanakh is not Holy Book for Judaism, only Torah is.

I understand there are older scrolls, Ganzo, but much of what was done 2000 years ago by the Catholic Church is much older and better preserved than many of the Jewish documents.

What do you base that on?

although there are some discussions about the date and methods of copying the Torah, unlike the Catholic Bible.

This can be discussed all you want but 1000 of other books throuout 3000 years quote Torah and those quotes always mach with original text. You think someone deliberatly edited every religious text Judaism has?

[Eziekial]

This is all so very complicated. Ganzo makes the most valid points in my opinion. To me, the ambiguity of the Hebrew language and the inherant errors in translation, to speak nothing of the teachings of Jesus, should humble Christians into being more tolerant of the world around them and other religions/faiths.

[Donnel]

NIV = Non Inspired Version

[labbats]

My bible can beat up your bible.

[Lyion]

Why not just omit it than, if it's just legends, that been superceded by new laws.

Talmud is book of comentary on Mishna(codex of religious laws) and not part of Tanakh(hebrew with some comentaries in Aramaic). Zohar is book of comentaries on meanings behind Torah's words, also knows as Kabalah, and is not part of Tanakh(in hebrew). Ezra and Daniel are both in Hebrew as well and are part of Khtuvim, 3rd part of Tanakh. As i said before Tanakh is not Holy Book for Judaism, only Torah is.

I understand there are older scrolls, Ganzo, but much of what was done 2000 years ago by the Catholic Church is much older and better preserved than many of the Jewish documents.

What do you base that on?

although there are some discussions about the date and methods of copying the Torah, unlike the Catholic Bible.

This can be discussed all you want but 1000 of other books throuout 3000 years quote Torah and those quotes always mach with original text. You think someone deliberatly edited every religious text Judaism has?

I don't think anyone edited every religious text, however my point that the Catholic Bible is older than the Torah you are using is simple fact. Also, OLDER documents have been invalidated because they are not in Hebrew or not what Jews agree upon. Read, Dead Sea Scrolls....What is the oldest copy of the Torah that the Jews have?

We can get into why the Jews chose to use some books and not others, but you would know those arguments better than I. Suffice to say there is much more controversy, which makes sense given the age and various belief structures of Judaism and the political nature of it.

As to why we primarily use the New Testament, well it's the 'current' testament that Catholics have with God. We respect and learn from the Old Testament, but just like in society laws change the same is true with Gods Law. We read the whole bible. We learn from the whole bible. We do not follow Old Testament scripture, such as Deuteronomy 7 which goes contrary to Christian Doctrine.

[Tossica]

Silly christians.

[Ganzo]

I don't think anyone edited every religious text, however my point that the Catholic Bible is older than the Torah you are using is simple fact.

Where do you get all this FACTS?

Also, OLDER documents have been invalidated because they are not in Hebrew or not what Jews agree upon.

What documents?

What is the oldest copy of the Torah that the Jews have?

The actual leather scroll? Cause it don't matter every scroll in the world is IDENTICAL. Not alot of old scrolls survived through warm support of jews by catholics and muslims.
But read up on how Torah scrolls are made.
As far as you saying that copying same text over and over through generations alters it, my point stands that there are 1000's of ancient texts on judaism in both Hebrew and Aramaic that quote every single passage from Torah. All the quotes mach with scrolls. So unless someone went through every book on judaism ever writen and changed the quotes to mach with "new torah" I don't see how it is possible.

[Tossica]

Silly jews.

[Langston]

LOL Toss

[Lyion]

If the oldest complete is from 900 AD, and the rest are newer than that, how do you know they are identical, Ganzo?

Sure there are a lot of scrolls in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek but my understanding is there isn't an older set of documents than several hundred years after St Jeromes time. I could be wrong here, but that's my understanding.

Toss, shoo.

[Narrock]

I know you think the NIV is a poor translation Ganzo, but I would highly disagree with you. The NIV is probably the most popular translation in the world, having been put together by worldwide religious leaders, top scholars, educators, and historians. It didn't get to become the most popular translation by being inaccurate.

Popularity of a book is not a sign of it's truth. The DaVinchi Code is hugely popular, yet you would not think that theories it shows are true. Catholic Bible was most published book for centuries, yet You argue it is wrong.

Mindia, trust me on this at least because i do speak multiple languages. YOU CAN NOT EVER PERFECTLY TRANSLATE FROM ONE LANGUAGE TO ANOTHER. You will always change something to make it make sence in the language you translating into. And this is just one aspect. As i said it's also has to do with multiple variations of reading same words in hebrew and because in ancient hebrew same words could mean multiple things. Does NIV encompas all posibilities and interpritations?

Ganzo, I respect your opinion in this matter, but I still have to disagree based on the fact that you are telling master Theologians that they have it all wrong. That is something I cannot accept... that Ganzo knows translation better than Theologian elders who have been studying that all their lives. Sorry man, no offense.