Creation vs. Evolution on trial in Kansas

[Zanchief]

This thread is turning into a circus act.

That's pretty funny.

[Harrison]

Shoo fly, this discussion is going fine without you.

[kaharthemad]

Hey i have indian in me. Souix to be exact. WOAH did I just use a racist term? umm no.

[Martrae]

They have been called Indians since they were first discovered here. Native American is just the newish term.

I stated public schools are messed up, plain and simple. I provided examples of that. You jumped on one statement and tried to make a big deal about it, apparently you missed my examples of it as well. What I want to know...is when you have no personal knowledge of the subject why do you even care to debate the issue?

[Zanchief]

They have been called Indians since they were first discovered here. Native American is just the newish term.

I stated public schools are messed up, plain and simple. I provided examples of that. You jumped on one statement and tried to make a big deal about it, apparently you missed my examples of it as well. What I want to know...is when you have no personal knowledge of the subject why do you even care to debate the issue?

I call bullshit when I hear it.

[Gidan]

Somewhat on topic

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... le_class_1

And I have no problems at all with this one. Though I think they should add some things like the Qur'an to the course as well as teaching the difference between the different bibles.

[Tikker]

I've always felt that religion should be an extra curricular learning class

If you want to take religous courses, you take them on your own time

[Gidan]

I acutally think a course on religion would make a very good history class. Religion has played such a large part of the worlds history, it would be good to see what some of these religions actually stood for and what they did in history. What they beleive in and such. Helps to get a beter view of the world.

[Rust]

Creationism is a religious belief, it is in no way whatsoever scientific.

That isn't entirely true.

'God did it!' isn't science.

--R.

[Lueyen]

They have been called Indians since they were first discovered here. Native American is just the newish term.

I call bullshit when I hear it.

No Native American in this case is a PC term. Calling someone a racist or inferring that they have a racial bias because they use one particular name vs another in a non-derogatory manner is an offensive attempt to place someone in a negative category based on semantics. "American Indian" or simply "Indian" have had a long historical reference to the peoples native to this corner of the world. What she said Zanchief was not "bullshit", it was accurate. One only needs to look at historical documents to find references to "Indians" that are referring to native people in the Americas.

My guess (not based on anything in particular) is that the reference probably does have some roots in the exploration of the new world and an initial mistake in the assumption that the Americas were actually the far east. So while technically inaccurate, the term did stick, and is used not to belittle, oppress, or degrade, but to simply reference a group of people. If you don't make the distinction between intent in the classification or use of names when referencing a particular group then any name or grouping would have to be racist in nature. If this is the case Zanchief you are just as much a racist in using "Native American" as someone is in using "Indian". You want to argue that the term Indian is inaccurate fine, I have no problem conceding that, but to say someone is being racist in using a long standing reference when they clearly did not mean it in a racist manner is bullshit.... I too call it as I see it.

As far as the original topic:
I don't necessarily agree with the zealous nature with which some people would purge our schools, government, and public life of anything remotely deemed religious. I also would not agree with promotion or preference of any particular set of values and beliefs. The key thing here being that not only am I against promotion or showing preference to any religious ideology, but that of any ideology. I do not think it's the place of our schools to dictate, or promote a particular religion, political ideology, sexual preference or any type of value system. Donnel hit it right on the head, the function of the school is to educate, not to raise or instill values, that responsibility falls on the parents.

[Zanchief]

Nice edit, but my bullshit comment was about the second part of that quote.

Thats a lot of shit coming out of your mouth to say that you don't think calling a Native an indian, even though they don't have anything to do with the country, is racist. I do. I think public schools do too. Big fucking deal.

[Harrison]

Creationism is a religious belief, it is in no way whatsoever scientific.

That isn't entirely true.

'God did it!' isn't science.

--R.

You truly are a fucking moron.

[Arlos]

Care to explain then how "God did it!", which is in essence what Creationism espouses, IS science? (hint: it's not)

-Arlos

PS. On the question of the term "Indian". The one native american/indian prof I've had recently said that either one is fine, though at least here in the US, the one he sees as most preferred by the most people is "American Indian", over any of the other apellations. He said it's especially nice, in today's political climate, to be able to have "American" in front of your ethnic title when you have to go to court. heh.

[Lueyen]

Nice edit, but my bullshit comment was about the second part of that quote.

Thats a lot of shit coming out of your mouth to say that you don't think calling a Native an indian, even though they don't have anything to do with the country, is racist. I do. I think public schools do too. Big fucking deal.

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were calling bullshit. The edit was not an attempt to missquote you or put words in your mouth, I was trying to edit out the part I wasn't refering to for clarity. And yes my response was a bit long, but my intent was not only to just state my opinion on the matter, but to provide the reason why. Quite frankly I don't see the reasoning behind you thinking that it is racist, ignorant and not based in fact I can see, but racist? how?

[Martrae]

He sees it that way because he went to public school and that's what they taught him.

Zan, you see all that as disciplinary problems, I see it as extremely poor decision making by the people that are in charge of education. If they can't see where something as extreme as those examples are wrong then what are they doing with day to day matters?

[Tikker]

I dunno what it's like in the states, since you guys massacred 99% of your native folk, but up here they're known as Cree, Sioux, Ojibiwuay, etc etc, and not indians

[Eziekial]

Let's not go overboard on exagerations. We only massacred 80-90% of the natives. (Oh, and all their buffalo)

[Lyion]

Native Americans are historically known as American Indians. Blame Chris Columbus and several hundred years of American History for the gaffe, not Martrae. She did not draft the US Documents which all use the term 'Indian' or the war known as the 'Indian Wars'.

We also have National American Indian Heritage Month.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/feature/indian/

There is no insult in American Indian, save for the overtly zealous political correctness. How do I know this? Might be the fact my Great Grandfather was pure Cheyenne.

[Martrae]

My great-grandmother was Cherokee/Blackfoot. Unfortunately, I didn't pick up many of the racial features but it's really prominent in many of my cousins.

[Tossica]

Huh. Bunch of redskins. My grandfather was 1/2 Cherokee.

[Diekan]

Someone say Indians?



Hope our season picks up - another year of suck might be to much.

[Lyion]

Yeah, last game I watched on TV was gruesome, Diek.