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Postby Narrock » Sat May 14, 2005 1:08 pm

Lyion wrote:So move. Easy to get citzenship there. Nothing stopping you.


Actually, it's not that easy Lyion. However, I'm posting the following information in hopes that a couple of the people who are regulars here will take advantage of it. I won't mention any names though, but I think we all know who I'm referring to... those individuals here who are trying to turn America into a Canada or France.


Canada Online - How to Become a Canadian Citizen.
Every year, approximately 150,000 permanent residents become Canadian citizens. Here's how to be one of them.

Difficulty Level: hard Time Required: four years



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's How:
Live in Canada legally for three years, and speak and understand English or French.
Learn about Canada. You must be able to pass a test on the rights and responsibilities of Canadians, and know about Canada's political system, history, and geography.
Get the "Application for Citizenship" form by calling in Montreal: (514) 496-1010; in Toronto: (416) 973-4444; in Vancouver: (604) 666-2171: in other areas in Canada: (888) 242-2100 (toll-free).
Fill in the application form, following the instructions on the form carefully.
Attach the required documents to the form. Documents include a copy of your immigration landing record, copies of two pieces of identification, and two black and white photographs.
Attach a certified cheque or money order payable to "The Receiver General for Canada," or fill in the credit card authorization on the bottom of the application form. The fee is $200 for adults, and $100 for minors.
Mail the form in the pre-addressed envelope.
Once your application is received you will receive a copy of the book "A Look at Canada." Begin studying the book as soon as you receive it.
You will get a "Notice to Appear for a Citizenship Test". Appear on the date and time, at the address in the Notice, and take the written citizenship test, or interview, as requested.
If you have met all requirements, you will receive a "Notice to Appear to Take the Oath of Citizenship". Appear on the date and time, at the address in the Notice, and take the Oath of Citizenship.

Tips:
To apply from outside Canada, consult your local Canadian embassy or consulate.
Complete a separate application form for each child. A child can only become a citizen if his/her parent is one.
If you wish to take the Oath of Citizenship on your holy book, bring it with you to the ceremony.
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Postby Yamori » Sat May 14, 2005 1:13 pm

Arlos wrote:Oh the horrors of Canada's "piss poor health care". What a crime it would be to have everyone covered by health insurance, and not have to worry about if they'll be out 10 grand they don't have if something should happen. Oh yeah, that would just SUCK, honest. Really. No, I mean it. For true.

-Arlos


It must be pretty easy to only look at the positive sides of any proposed idea. That way you can act righteously indignant when people who perceive the negative sides and the costs disagree.
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Postby Harrison » Sat May 14, 2005 1:54 pm

Communists don't think rationally.
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Postby mofish » Sat May 14, 2005 3:08 pm

Yamori wrote:
Arlos wrote:Oh the horrors of Canada's "piss poor health care". What a crime it would be to have everyone covered by health insurance, and not have to worry about if they'll be out 10 grand they don't have if something should happen. Oh yeah, that would just SUCK, honest. Really. No, I mean it. For true.

-Arlos


It must be pretty easy to only look at the positive sides of any proposed idea. That way you can act righteously indignant when people who perceive the negative sides and the costs disagree.


Negative side and costs? The US has the most expensive, most inflated health care system in the world. We also have ~40 million citizens completely uninsured. Please, tell me how Canada's system is inferior. I dont mean how it is philosophically inferior (the government is stealing my money! John Gault to the rescue!). I mean realistically, practically. Tell me how our system is better than a nationalized system like Canada's.
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Postby Martrae » Sat May 14, 2005 3:10 pm

Because you can get into see a doctor within days instead of months.
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Postby Lyion » Sat May 14, 2005 3:47 pm

If it's ok with you, I'd rather not have to wait a year for a health appointment.

http://www.etalkinghead.com/news/archiv ... 04-23.html

atients fed up with long waiting lists in Canada are fuelling a fast-growing demand for brokerages that arrange speedy service in the United States as well as in Quebec's burgeoning for-profit medical industry.

Brokers and other similar companies say business has as much as tripled over the past year as Canadians apparently become more comfortable with paying for diagnostic tests, second opinions and even surgery.

They say their patients include not only the wealthy but also middle-class people willing to take out second mortgages or lines of credit to pay for faster care.

Driving the move are Canada's lengthy waiting lists for many medical procedures. A study last year found Canadians waited an average of 8.4 weeks from their general practitioner's referral to an appointment with a specialist in 12 different medical specialties, then waited another 9.5 weeks for their treatment. Those wait times are almost double what a similar study found in 1993.

An increasing number of patients looking to skirt the public system are being referred to physicians in Quebec's private health care sector, where operations such as hip replacements can be bought out of pocket -- and where the federal government has done little to intervene.

Patients approach the agencies in need of everything from joint replacements to diagnostic work and cancer treatment.

The number that OneWorld Medicare of B.C. sends to the United States for at least a consultation has jumped three-fold over the past 12 months, while the company fielded twice as many inquiries between January and March as it did in all of 2004.

"We have seen a very large growth in the last year," said Mike Starko of OneWorld.

"We shouldn't have to be sending people down to the U.S., we really shouldn't. But that's the unfortunate reality at this point."

Some of the companies act simply as brokers, locating an appropriate private hospital or clinic to perform the needed procedure and negotiating what they call a discounted price. They take a portion of the savings as their fees.

Another company, Medextra, provides a broader service, helping people navigate the system by getting them expert second opinions, a private-sector procedure or the right care within the public system in Canada. Its basic rate is $180 an hour.

Business has doubled over the past year, with about 100 patients being served at any given time, said Dr. Jeff Brock, co-owner of the firm, which is also based in British Columbia.

"There's been a really big shift in public sentiment," said Evan Savelson, another co-owner of Medextra. "There's been a shift from people having very negative feelings about alternatives to solving their medical problems to people welcoming it and being willing to pay for it."

Rick Baker, who started Timely Medical Alternatives in B.C. about 18 months ago without a client in his first month, says business is now thriving, with half a dozen e-mails and as many phone calls from patients waiting for him every morning.

One of them was Velma Sutter, 68, of Edmonton. Two Alberta specialists had told her the excruciating pain she was feeling was a result of back trouble, but she'd have to wait a year to get into a pain clinic. Mrs. Sutter headed to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota in January, where doctors said she had been wrongly diagnosed and really needed a hip replacement.
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Postby Lyion » Sat May 14, 2005 4:04 pm

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0504 ... 123561.htm

Canada's health care in crisis

An average family pays 48% of income in taxes; some are tired of waiting for services.

Dr. Brian Day got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic.

A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to the Associated Press. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.

"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.

"Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it's just not there," Pelton said.

System is going broke

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives, as well."

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.

In 1984, Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year. The system is called Medicare (no relation to Medicare in the United States).

A country set apart

Despite the financial burden, Canadians value their Medicare as a marker of egalitarianism and independent identity that sets their country apart from the United States, where some 45 million Americans lack health insurance.

Raisa Deber, a professor of health policy at the University of Toronto, believes Canada's system is one of the world's fairest.

"Canadians are very proud of the fact that if they need care, they will get care," she said. Of the United States, she said: "I don't understand how they got to this worship of markets, to the extent that they're perfectly happy that some people don't get the health care that they need."

Canada does not have fully nationalized health care; its doctors are in private practice and send their bills to the government for reimbursement.

Deber acknowledges problems in the system, but believes most Canadians get the care they need. She said the federal government should attach more strings to its annual lump-sum allocations to the provinces so that tax dollars are better spent on preventive care and improvements in working conditions for health-care professionals.

In defense of the system

In Alberta, a conservative province where pressure for private clinics and insurance is strong, a nonprofit organization called Friends of Medicare has sprung to the system's defense. It points up the inequities in U.S. health care and calls Canada's "the most moral and the most cost-effective health care system there is in the world. Is your sick grandchild more deserving of help than your neighbor's grandchild?" It asks.

Yes, says Dr. Brian Day, if that grandchild needs urgent care and can't get it at a government-funded hospital.

Day, an English-born arthroscopic surgeon, founded Cambie Surgery Center in Vancouver, British Columbia -- another province where private surgeries are making inroads. He says he got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries at the public hospitals in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic. A leading advocate for reform, he testified last June before the Supreme Court in a landmark appeal against a Quebec ruling upholding limits on private care and insurance.

The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France's health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein is pushing what he calls "the third way" -- a fusion of Canadian Medicare and the system in France and many other nations, where residents can supplement their government-funded health care with private insurance and services.
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Postby veeneedefeesh » Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 pm

Martrae wrote:Because you can get into see a doctor within days instead of months.
When is the last time you made a doctors appt for something other than an emergency? I hve to make my cardio checkup appointments 6 months in advance. Dentist is at least 2 months in advance
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Postby Lyion » Sat May 14, 2005 4:51 pm

I got into my Orthopedic Doctor in 3 days from a referral.

I can get into see a specialist in any field within a week.
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Postby Yamori » Sat May 14, 2005 5:08 pm

Negative side and costs? The US has the most expensive, most inflated health care system in the world. We also have ~40 million citizens completely uninsured. Please, tell me how Canada's system is inferior. I dont mean how it is philosophically inferior (the government is stealing my money! John Gault to the rescue!). I mean realistically, practically. Tell me how our system is better than a nationalized system like Canada's.


I'm more than willing to bet that the long list of problems with "private" healthcare are actually caused by government interference with the economy. Prices are so artificially inflated in large part because Medicaid and Insurance companies refuse to pay full price. Insurance prices are also high in part because of government interference (for example, forcing policies to be all encompassing).

Here is my long list of objections to public health care.

1) The government is a festering swamp of bureaucracy. Anything it touches loses efficiency and inflates costs. Just look at the ridiculous shape schools and roads are in. I don't want hospitals to become in the same shape.

2) No one has the right to medical care. That sounds heartless, but medical care can never be a right. No one has the right to SERVICE from another human being. Medical care is a service provided by businessmen, in this case businessmen who work very very hard to develop such skills.

3) Under socialized health care, someone who abuses their body horridly pays equally into the system as someone who takes religious care of themselves. How is this fair for others to be forced to support someone elses self negligence?

4) How is it fair to take income by force from people who do not agree with such a plan? As if our taxes aren't high enough as it is.

5) As several others have already mentioned, waiting. Under socialized health care, they treat you when they darn well feel like it. You have no leverage over them whatsoever.

6) Doctors' rights. Has anyone bothered to ask them how THEY feel about it? You know, the guys that we are entrusting our lives with? I'm willing to bet that almost all doctors do NOT want to be working under even more bureaucracy than they already do.
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Postby Harrison » Sat May 14, 2005 5:34 pm

Not to mention the quality of doctors WILLING to work in such a shit system is MUCH lower than a more privatized instance.

If I went to medical school and became a doctor, I sure as FUCK would not be going to canada for a job. I would go where I would be paid more, plain and simple.
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Postby mappatazee » Sat May 14, 2005 5:55 pm

yeah as FUCK

FUCK ya man dude right on
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Postby Harrison » Sat May 14, 2005 6:12 pm

Under socialized health care, someone who abuses their body horridly pays equally into the system as someone who takes religious care of themselves. How is this fair for others to be forced to support someone elses self negligence?


That's why communism is retarded. I don't know anyone in their right mind who wants to go down that route.
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Postby Ciladan » Sat May 14, 2005 7:18 pm

Uh, I think everyone should be entitled to health care. Guess it's just that compassion thing. Costs be damned, humans don't deserve to suffer because they can't afford not to.

An average family pays 48% of income in taxes


I must have missed that on my last cheque, because this is a load of crap.
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Postby Yamori » Sat May 14, 2005 7:59 pm

Ciladan wrote:Uh, I think everyone should be entitled to health care. Guess it's just that compassion thing.


Yeah, compassion at gunpoint.
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Postby Lyion » Sat May 14, 2005 8:06 pm

You realise the US pays more per person to subsidize health care than Canada, Ciladan?

Also, Hospitals do not turn away people, and we have medicaire, medicaid and other programs.

and you dont have to wait a year to see a doctor....
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Postby Diekan » Sat May 14, 2005 8:16 pm

Ciladan wrote:Uh, I think everyone should be entitled to health care. Guess it's just that compassion thing. Costs be damned, humans don't deserve to suffer because they can't afford not to.

An average family pays 48% of income in taxes


I must have missed that on my last cheque, because this is a load of crap.


Yes - it IS about 48%... you don't just pay federal and state taxes you know.

You pay 6% sales tax on everything you buy. There's also property tax, tag tax (every year for new tags on your car), tobacco and alcohol taxes, city taxes, state taxes, medicare *taxes*, federal taxes, social security *taxes* and others I have left out. When you add up EVERYTHING you pay into taxes each year - whether it's getting new tags for your car, buying a bag of groceries at the store, buying a tank of gas, or whatever - you will find that you are pretty much paying 50% of your total income to the government.

Do believe it? Do the math.
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Postby Ciladan » Sat May 14, 2005 9:54 pm

You guys don't have a sales tax?
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Postby Lyion » Sat May 14, 2005 10:20 pm

Our overall tax is about 15 to 20% less than Canadas.

Diekan, that figure is for Canada. You do not pay 50% of your income for taxes, even if you're in the highest bracket

Yes, we have a sales tax. The 15 to 20% figure is including everything.
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Postby Azlana » Sat May 14, 2005 10:20 pm

not in Oregon...but most places do.
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Postby Diekan » Sun May 15, 2005 1:21 am

I'm talking about just income taxes here. I am talking about ALL the taxes we pay in total. I disagree that's only 20% or so.

We get taxed on pretty much EVERYTHING we buy, save or invest in.

Here's a list of the taxes we pay - of course some of the items may or may not apply to you individually - but nonetheless here it is:

Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

Capital Gains Tax

CDL license Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Court Fines (indirect taxes)

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel permit tax

Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)

Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

Liquor Tax

Local Income Tax

Luxury Taxes

Marriage License Tax

Medicare Tax

Property Tax

Real Estate Tax

Septic Permit Tax

Service Charge Taxes

Social Security Tax

Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)

Sales Taxes

Recreational Vehicle Tax

Road Toll Booth Taxes

School Tax

State Income Tax

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

Telephone federal excise tax

Telephone federal universal service fee tax

Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes

Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

Telephone state and local tax

Telephone usage charge tax

Toll Bridge Taxes

Toll Tunnel Taxes

Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

Trailer registration tax

Utility Taxes

Vehicle License Registration Tax

Vehicle Sales Tax

Watercraft registration Tax

Well Permit Tax

Workers Compensation Tax


So, yes - up to 50% or more of your money goes to a tax (in sum) per year.

Let's say you're just the average Joe who doesn't own a buisness. Let's say for the sake of argument that you own a home, have a dog, and like to go fishing during the summers with your boat. Seems pretty *average,* no?

During the year you are going to have to pay:

Federal Income tax, State income tax, Social Security, Dog license tax, Fishing license tax, Property tax, Tag tax (for your car, or both cars if your wife has one too), Sales tax, Gasoline tax, Telephone tax (take a good hard look at your cell phone bill), Local taxes (City taxes)...

Let's further the example of the home owner I described above for a moment.

Say he's making 50,000 a year.

Let's say he's putting 5% of his anual income into his 401k... (I will MY total deductions for this example sinse I make about 48,000 per year base - barring overtime). His deductions are roughly 28% - but we'll subtract 5% for his 401k contribution.

23% of his anual earnings are taken for social security, federal tax, state tax, and medicare.

Now, we'll add 6% sales tax to everything he purchases (barring those items in the list above). So, we're at 29% now total tax on his anual salary and the money he spends. Ok, so he buys gas... I'll use Georgia for this example which has a tax of something in the area of 7.4% per gallon. Now, we're at 36.4%. Ok, he owns a home, so he's looking at roughly 2000 a year for his property tax. 2000 of 50000 comes out to 'round 4%. So, we're now at 40.4% taxes and we haven't even taken into consideration the taxes he'll pay on his car(s), his dog's license, his fishing lisence, the bottle(s) of wine, or case of beer he may buy during the year, or even the tax he'll have to pay on the profits from his investements. Or, for that matter we didn't even touch the taxes he'll be paying on his Cell Phone bill which is a lot higher than 6%.

So, yes greater than 40.4% of the money he spends / makes will go to the government in one form or another, whether state, federal or both (which is usually the case).

We're getting the shit taxed out of us.
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Postby Captain Insano » Sun May 15, 2005 2:57 am

I want to go broader with this thread....

IMO American businesses and the workers that keep them running are both totally bogged down by our government and their social programs and insane tax system.

Running a business in the states is damn hard. The government has added so much damn taxation and regulation to every industry that they are no longer fluid and dynamic when compared to the rest of the world.

We wanted globalization? Well we have it. If the American economy wants to continue to compete they have to stop taxing and regulating the shit out of American companies.

I have went thru hell and back trying to get a company off the ground while following the guidelines set forth by the gov't and the godamn IRS.

I actually seriously considered setting up a company in the Grand Caimans and running it out of the US. It was that bad.

First off we need a flat consumption tax. This would allow companies to spend their money on investments and growth, not on keeping our government and the IRS happy. The effects would more than likely trickle down to the american worker. The only downside of this is that the American worker would probably fight more than a few battles with these big corporations to ensure that the savings they made would benefit them and not just the upper echelons of management. Such legislation would be worth the struggle in my opinion.

The governent also needs to make it cost-effective to manufacture again in the US. That is a big problem.

Somehow someway they need to make it so companies can start manufacturing again here in the states. If that means that a certain class of people have to work minimum wage in factories to do menial work, fine. For a lot of people any job is better than no job.

That money will also have a positive effect on the economy as a whole.


I w ould continue with this but I have had a few too many tangurey and tonics and my thoughts a bit disorganized.
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Postby labbats » Sun May 15, 2005 5:27 am

Harrison wrote:I'm going to make a T-shirt that says "I shop at Wal-Mart to piss off hippies"

Actually, I'm going to look and see if someone already hasn't thought of it.


You're going to piss off yourself?
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Postby Diabolik » Sun May 15, 2005 7:17 am

Diekan wrote:Ok, so he buys gas... I'll use Georgia for this example which has a tax of something in the area of 7.4% per gallon. Now, we're at 36.4%.


This might be accurate of a person who spends 100% of their wages on gasoline.

With the way gas prices are going, who knows?
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Postby Captain Insano » Sun May 15, 2005 4:57 pm

Lyion wrote:If it's ok with you, I'd rather not have to wait a year for a health appointment.

http://www.etalkinghead.com/news/archiv ... 04-23.html

atients fed up with long waiting lists in Canada are fuelling a fast-growing demand for brokerages that arrange speedy service in the United States as well as in Quebec's burgeoning for-profit medical industry.

Brokers and other similar companies say business has as much as tripled over the past year as Canadians apparently become more comfortable with paying for diagnostic tests, second opinions and even surgery.

They say their patients include not only the wealthy but also middle-class people willing to take out second mortgages or lines of credit to pay for faster care.

Driving the move are Canada's lengthy waiting lists for many medical procedures. A study last year found Canadians waited an average of 8.4 weeks from their general practitioner's referral to an appointment with a specialist in 12 different medical specialties, then waited another 9.5 weeks for their treatment. Those wait times are almost double what a similar study found in 1993.

An increasing number of patients looking to skirt the public system are being referred to physicians in Quebec's private health care sector, where operations such as hip replacements can be bought out of pocket -- and where the federal government has done little to intervene.

Patients approach the agencies in need of everything from joint replacements to diagnostic work and cancer treatment.

The number that OneWorld Medicare of B.C. sends to the United States for at least a consultation has jumped three-fold over the past 12 months, while the company fielded twice as many inquiries between January and March as it did in all of 2004.

"We have seen a very large growth in the last year," said Mike Starko of OneWorld.

"We shouldn't have to be sending people down to the U.S., we really shouldn't. But that's the unfortunate reality at this point."

Some of the companies act simply as brokers, locating an appropriate private hospital or clinic to perform the needed procedure and negotiating what they call a discounted price. They take a portion of the savings as their fees.

Another company, Medextra, provides a broader service, helping people navigate the system by getting them expert second opinions, a private-sector procedure or the right care within the public system in Canada. Its basic rate is $180 an hour.

Business has doubled over the past year, with about 100 patients being served at any given time, said Dr. Jeff Brock, co-owner of the firm, which is also based in British Columbia.

"There's been a really big shift in public sentiment," said Evan Savelson, another co-owner of Medextra. "There's been a shift from people having very negative feelings about alternatives to solving their medical problems to people welcoming it and being willing to pay for it."

Rick Baker, who started Timely Medical Alternatives in B.C. about 18 months ago without a client in his first month, says business is now thriving, with half a dozen e-mails and as many phone calls from patients waiting for him every morning.

One of them was Velma Sutter, 68, of Edmonton. Two Alberta specialists had told her the excruciating pain she was feeling was a result of back trouble, but she'd have to wait a year to get into a pain clinic. Mrs. Sutter headed to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota in January, where doctors said she had been wrongly diagnosed and really needed a hip replacement.



CANADIAN HEALTHCARE = :owned:

But seriously... If we want to decrease the cost of health care we need to start feeding all the worthless aging baby boomers to sharks and charge admission.

What did baby boomers accomplish anyways? Most were a bunch of slackboss dirty hippies who frittered away their lives and slammed into retirement unprepared and begging for government handouts they don't deserve.
Tossica: No, you're gay because you suck on cocks.

Darcler:
Get rid of the pictures of the goofy looking white guy. That opens two right there.

Mazzletoffarado: That's me fucktard
Vivalicious wrote:Lots of females don't want you to put your penis in their mouths. Some prefer it in their ass.
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