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Postby mofish » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:19 pm

xaoshaen wrote:
mofish wrote:SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Not a law


Was, however, a fairly common law. Still exists in some places, and is considered grounds for dissolving, with prejudice, a legal union.

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

Not a law.


Is, in fact, a law.


1. Adultery is not illegal. You cannot go to jail for cheating on your spouse.

2. False witness is illegal sometimes, Ill admit. On the stand, lying to a police officer, both illegal. But lieing in general is not illegal. If lieing were illegal everyone would be behind bars.
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Postby xaoshaen » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:21 pm

mofish wrote:1. Adultery is not illegal. You cannot go to jail for cheating on your spouse.


There are lots of crimes you can't go to jail for. There was a time in this country when adultery was a criminal act however, punishable by courts of law.

2. False witness is illegal sometimes, Ill admit. On the stand, lying to a police officer, both illegal. But lieing in general is not illegal. If lieing were illegal everyone would be behind bars.


Bearing false witness is not "lying". It's making a baseless formal accuasation against someone. The modern equivalent is perjury.
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:30 pm

Yamori wrote:I really don't see where you guys get that the US was founded on judeochristian principles.


The founding fathers were mostly Christian. That is a fact. The Constitituion was written in a way to support a moral, Christian society, despite what many revisionists would have you believe.

Did you know roughly half our founding fathers had Christian Seminary Degrees? I'd say that probably grounded them and their morality in a Judeo-Christian mindset, wouldn't you?

But don't take my word for it. Feel free to take it from the Founding Fathers themselves

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." -- Patrick Henry


"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus" -Thomas Jefferson


"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian." -- George Washington


”We have staked the future upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according the Ten Commandments of God.“ --James Madison


Our government was not built to be a Theocracy. It was built on balance, freedoms, and to keep a separation of church and state.

These fact's do not change the simple truth the founding fathers were predominately Christian enacting laws primarely based on their Judeo-Christian background.

I do find it interesting that you attack Adams, who went to pains to ensure other countries that the Government of the United States was not a 'Christian' Government.
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Postby Yamori » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:18 pm

Just because some of their religions were christian, and just because one obscure person has said they were founded on christian principles, does not mean that the founding principles of the country were christian.

Please show me where these christian principles are in the constitution and the bill of rights.
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Postby Harrison » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:22 pm

Patrick Henry was "obscure"? :ugh:
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Postby Yamori » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:50 pm

I've never heard of him - what did he contribute? Maybe I'm wrong.
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Postby xaoshaen » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:53 pm

Wow.
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Postby Harrison » Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:53 pm

Please tell me you're foreign or never read a book about american history in your life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry
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Postby Yamori » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:09 pm

I guess my school sucked (which it did), because I picked up history very easily - but have no recollection whatsoever of that name being mentioned. Oh well, now I do know who he is.

Although, according to that article, his contribution to the legal structure of the country was being an advocate of antifederalism and promoting the bill of rights. Assuming I didn't miss the magic christian ideology hidden somewhere in the bill of rights, my point still stands - what makes his assertion that our country has a christian foundation correct?
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Postby Parv » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:54 pm

In my opinion you cannot have a nation founded on an idea unless that idea is promoted in law. If I wanted to found a state on distinctly Christian ideas though, then foremost would be laws concerning God and Christ, the ideas that are unique to the faith. It seems our difference in opinion is over this fact - for me it matters not what your intentions are, but what the end result is.

Ganzo: I admit I don't know how much of Judaism is present in politics of modern Isreal, so maybe you can explain. The Biblical states of Isreal were strongly founded on Jewish principles and rules though, and the priests played large roles in the government.
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Postby mofish » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:19 pm

Patrick Henry was the only equivalent to the 20th century christian fundamentalist among our founding fathers.
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Postby Ganzo » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:24 pm

Parv wrote:
Ganzo: I admit I don't know how much of Judaism is present in politics of modern Isreal, so maybe you can explain. The Biblical states of Isreal were strongly founded on Jewish principles and rules though, and the priests played large roles in the government.


Present Israel gov isn't associated with religion.
In biblical times, Israel was ruled first by judjes, than by kings, than by judges again.

All jews separate in 3 casts: Kohanim(decendants of Aaron) - priests, Leviim(tribe Levi) - temple servants and teachers of religious law to people, and Israel(other 11 tribes) regular people. Kings came from Israel, exept for few Levi all judges came from Israel.

So while religious law was law of the land, church and state were separated since Kohanim and high priest had no conection to Kings or Judges.
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Postby xaoshaen » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:25 pm

mofish wrote:Patrick Henry was the only equivalent to the 20th century christian fundamentalist among our founding fathers.


I'll lay long odds that you can't even name all the Founding Fathers, let alone identify their personal religions. I know that I couldn't, without researching it. There were 55 of them, after all.
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Postby mofish » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:52 pm

Haha, I missed that Jefferson quote from above. Typical slanted post.

Here's a truer picture of the man:


Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825[/b]
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Postby Lyion » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:56 pm

Nice segue into nothingness that ignores the fact most of the founding fathers were Christian, and 1/2 of them attended Christian Seminary.

And reread Ganzo's post three or four times until its point sinks in, Mo!
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Postby Azlana » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:52 pm

Who cares if every last one of them was a Christian? I know it's cliche and all...but, times have changed.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:53 am

Er, because the thread was did our initial laws and policies have somewhat of a foundation in Judeo-Christianity.

Interestingly enough, most of our politicians are still of a Judeo-Christian mindset, so things haven't changed that much. Much of what is deemed right and wrong and moral comes from the same source it came from 200 years ago.
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Postby Diabolik » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:06 pm

Hey, they were all men, too. And they didn't give women the right to vote. I guess women's suffrage is anti-American.
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Postby mofish » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:04 pm

Ok, fine. Let's say I buy for a second that our laws and legal code are somehow based on judeo-christian tradition. One of you, please explain to me exactly why this is. Really, what about our law code stems specifically from christianity?
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