How do the uber guilds handle group / raid loot?

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:00 pm

As the GL of Space Pirates from Hell, soon-to-be uber guild, I had to deal with my first issue with loot last night in SFK (i know lol, n00b zone)....

One of my guys looted an *uber* lowbie rogue weapon to use to build his skill up on his warlock. He also rolled on damn near everything even when other members said they needed the stuff. The guy made out like a bandit. Anyways, I counseled him about it later and explained things to him. He says he felt bad about it and didn't know better and that he was new to MMOGs. We'll see.

Moving along...

I personally hate dealing with loot disputes and am in the process of doing a pretty extensive write-up on it to attach to the guild's charter in an effort to stave off loot problems.

I would like to know what rules you use in your guild's for groups and raids. If you use DKP for raiding where can I get in depth info on how it works, point assignments for various mobs etc?

Thanks.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:06 pm

DKP is the best way to go IMO

loot council can work if you have the same group of people showing up at events all the time

but if you have a somewhat fluctuating raid force dkp owns all

you assign a dkp value for time spent ina raid
you assign a dkp value for item

you spend earnd dkp on said items, and deduct from your points total

you can do almost anything with DKP

10sun · Post by **10sun** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:29 pm

Ask me who should get it.

Simple enough.

-Adam

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:00 pm

We use EQDKP

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:57 pm

thanks for the infoz.

Do you use DKP on raid groups? such as UBRS runs etc?

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:25 pm

We only use DKP for Onyxia, Azuregos, Kazzak and Molten Core.

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:49 pm

We have a 'loot committee' that assigns loot.

nibbon · Post by **nibbon** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:53 am

officers assign loot for mine

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:15 am

Officer assigned loot leaves room for favoritism, but DKP leaves room for error. We use a system that you can only roll on items used by your class, and only one drop per raid.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:11 am

where does dkp leave room for error?

generally problems with a dkp system aren't the fault of the system, but rather of the people implementing it, heh

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:19 am

my point exactly

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:23 am

so what happens in your random rolling system when a sword drops?

do you let hunters out roll the warrios and rogues?

or when a gun drops, do you let warriors outroll hunters on them?

Post by **Gidan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:09 am

DKP is probably the best system out there. People are rewarded for the time they put in. Its probably the most fair way to do it.

Where do you see that DKP leaves room for error?

The Kizzy · Post by **The Kizzy** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:22 am

Human error, Gidan. Someone has to keep the logs, someone assignes the points, someone adds and subtracts. To many times in EQ people were missed inthe raid log, or they only stayed for half the raid etc etc

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:26 am

I'd argue that DKP minimizes the chance for human error, by at least providing an objective baseline. As with any statistical system, it's possible to optimize it by providing tiers of redundancy and the ability to crosscheck datasets. The basic math can be automated, and point assignment can be handled iteratively to help cut down on meat-based interference.

Post by **Gidan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:30 am

The system is not flawed, the application of the system is flawed in that case. If you have a system that checks your information, DKP is not flawed.

Assigning point values to an item is not a flaw becasue it applied to that item across the board regardless of who gets it, and you spend points on that item based on the price that is being asked. If somone is actually doing a DKP system on paper, they need to get a computer.

If multiple people take attendace at raids at set intervals, you will have an accurate picture of who was there and for how long.

Now do you not see possible error in this

Kizzy wrote:We use a system that you can only roll on items used by your class, and only one drop per raid.

What if the same 4 people win loot at every single raid while others never win anything? Your system says 1 loot per raid, if 4 things drop at every raid and those same 4 people just happen to win every time you have a flawed system.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:24 am

Kizzy wrote:Human error, Gidan. Someone has to keep the logs, someone assignes the points, someone adds and subtracts. To many times in EQ people were missed inthe raid log, or they only stayed for half the raid etc etc

These aren't DKP problems

these are problems with the methodology of your previous eq guild

properly run, you just grab logs of members online at the raid at regular intervals, then dump those logs into a parser which adds the dkp for people

items are assigned values, and subtracted from your dkp total when you purchase an item

Jimmy Durante · Post by **Jimmy Durante** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:31 am

I don't play MMORPGs anymore, but I was in the same guild as Gidan in EverQuest where we had used an officer award system. One grating drawback was that if an item dropped that many lusted over, you would have to sift through a dozen names and I would watch officers struggle trying to narrow it down. Quite often this would be extremely time consuming.

10sun · Post by **10sun** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:35 am

What happens when you only have one warrior going on raids/in the guild?

Yet he is forced to watch stuff rot or go into negative DKP due to the system implementation?

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:36 am

It's even harder in warcraft because of the viability of diff't talent builds

A nice polearm drops, and everyone thinks warrior, but in a lot of cases, it's actually a better hunter weapon

or a dagger drops, and really, it's a priest/shaman dagger, not a rogue dagger

sux

Post by **Gidan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:00 pm

10sun wrote:What happens when you only have one warrior going on raids/in the guild?

Yet he is forced to watch stuff rot or go into negative DKP due to the system implementation?

If he is going neg DKP it means he is speding it and getting gear. If he chooses not to bid on those items so that he can have his DKP for other things, that is his choice. IMO somone who is watching things rot that would be upgrades to him becasue he is hording DKP for another item, he is being an idiot because more them likely the total upgrade ofthe rotting items > the upgrade of the one item.

Post by **Mop** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:12 pm

our guild uses dkp I belive, though i am suckboss and still not quite to raid lvl

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:44 pm

We've had absolutely zero problems with DKP in our raids and we have an alliance of 4 different guilds that raid together. We use a Null DKP system where the incoming points is equal to outgoing points. A piece of armor rots that nobody wants? You get 0 DKP for it. You can also go as negative as you want but you'll then always get last choice on loot.

If anyone wants to know more about it, let me know and i'll try to get more info.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:51 pm

ok

so if let's say you clear MC

you're guild is uber, and you clear the whole thing in one

Let's say you're so uber every peice of gear rots, except 1 ragnaros drop

let's say the item is valued at 100 dkp

does everyone earn 100 dkp for the night?

or is it 100dkp/40 members?

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:04 pm

Tikker wrote:ok

so if let's say you clear MC

you're guild is uber, and you clear the whole thing in one

Let's say you're so uber every peice of gear rots, except 1 ragnaros drop

let's say the item is valued at 100 dkp

does everyone earn 100 dkp for the night?

or is it 100dkp/40 members?

2.5 DKP per member in a true Null DKP system.