How do the uber guilds handle group / raid loot?

[Tikker]

hrm

while it's probably not common, that method doesn't make a lot of sense to me

I could attend 80 hours worth of events and earn 20 dkp

Or I could attend 1 4 hour raid, and earn 20dkp if it just happened that someone had pighand loot that night


I'd rather try and implement some sort of weekly tax, or some sort of device that shrunk dkp over time than a true null system

I've always felt that the people who put the most time in, should have first shot at the lewts, null system doesn't really do that (potentially)

[xaoshaen]

hrm

while it's probably not common, that method doesn't make a lot of sense to me

I could attend 80 hours worth of events and earn 20 dkp

Or I could attend 1 4 hour raid, and earn 20dkp if it just happened that someone had pighand loot that night


I'd rather try and implement some sort of weekly tax, or some sort of device that shrunk dkp over time than a true null system

I've always felt that the people who put the most time in, should have first shot at the lewts, null system doesn't really do that (potentially)

It's a fairly logical system with weak boundary conditions. Think of it as capitalism in an MMO: you get paid by what you produce. It also has the advantage of having relatively low overhead: you don't need to correlate hours to points and then balance those with item prices. You just need to assign prices to items that make sense relative to each other.

[Captain Insano]

Hmmm.. this is complicated. More so than I thought.

I can guarantee we will be teaming up with other guilds to raid. Where can I find something that really breaks this down?

Also is there something that people use that assigns point values instead of me having to figure them out? In other words is there a good site with a standard that is well accepted in WoW?

Also how do you handle groups? I will be doing a lot of grouping in instances on my rise to 60.

I've already encountered a problem with a warlock looting a badass rogue dagger and need to provide some rules to my guild soon to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

[Tikker]

hrm

while it's probably not common, that method doesn't make a lot of sense to me

I could attend 80 hours worth of events and earn 20 dkp

Or I could attend 1 4 hour raid, and earn 20dkp if it just happened that someone had pighand loot that night


I'd rather try and implement some sort of weekly tax, or some sort of device that shrunk dkp over time than a true null system

I've always felt that the people who put the most time in, should have first shot at the lewts, null system doesn't really do that (potentially)

It's a fairly logical system with weak boundary conditions. Think of it as capitalism in an MMO: you get paid by what you produce. It also has the advantage of having relatively low overhead: you don't need to correlate hours to points and then balance those with item prices. You just need to assign prices to items that make sense relative to each other.

That's the problem I have with it

You could raid for an entire week, killing everything in sight, yet you don't earn anything for your time invested, just simply because the random number generator hates you

killing mobA should always (imo) result in you earning XX dkp

[xaoshaen]

That's the problem I have with it

You could raid for an entire week, killing everything in sight, yet you don't earn anything for your time invested, just simply because the random number generator hates you

killing mobA should always (imo) result in you earning XX dkp

To other people, spending XX time should always result in YY DKP. *shrug* Whatever works for a given guild is cool by me, I've never been all that big on loot one way or the other. I will say that, in favor of Taxx's system, it stops inflation cold, which can be a huge advantage over less rigorous DKP systems.

[xaoshaen]

I've already encountered a problem with a warlock looting a badass rogue dagger and need to provide some rules to my guild soon to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

In a pure DKP system, if the Lock has sufficient DKP, he can legitimately win the dagger over a rogue with less DKP. Not all guilds like to run their system that evenhandedly, though.

[Tacks]

Yeah you get #ofpoints/#ofraiders . We've also gotten bonus points for first kills and learning processes. Our raid also knows which class deserves which loot. We don't let a warlock loot a dagger, the same as we won't let a rogue loot a Fang of Mystics. The most fitting class gets first dibs, if they all pass then others are eligible. We've really had no complaints from the raiders. Sure you'll get more points one night compared to another but we also raid on the same nights every week so people know when to show up...if they don't show up thats their problem.

[The Kizzy]

Ok, so if killing BIG BAD UBER MOB gets you 5 points, what abou thte people that were there for 4 hours to kill the mob vs. those who have only been there the last 30 minutes, and what if you don't kill him at all?

[Tacks]

If you can't stay for the entire raid you don't get invited for it. If you don't kill anything, you get no points, why should you get points for not accomplishing anything unless you're learning a mob.

So far our biggest loot on one mob gave us 7 points each. So it's good and bad. You don't earn a ton of points per mob but you also don't get way far behind by missing one night of raiding. Most we ever got was 28 points one night I think. So it takes a while to earn up dkp to spend it...but the nice thing is you can get exactly what you want if you save your money. I have the 2nd best mainhand dagger and best offhand dagger in the game right now because I didn't waste money on minimal nightslayer upgrades. Each dagger cost me 78 pts a piece and theres only been 251 points available since we started dkp.

[The Kizzy]

Why would someone want to take 5 hours of their time to raid if they aren't getting points. That seems silly to me.

[Tacks]

Also BIG BAD UBER MOB (onyxia I guess) only takes an hour at most to kill from start to finish. Molten Core we usually clear 8 bosses now, that takes 4-5 hours.

[The Kizzy]

Do you get points for each of those bosses?

[Gidan]

Most DKP systems are based on Each boss type mob not the whole raid in general. This of course depends on the peopel implementing it.

I have used systems that awarded as set number of points for being at the raid in general as long as you were present for more then 50% of the logs. Points per boss type mob, and on very long raids points per hour of attendance (each log you were at neted you so many points).

I have also used systems where we just awarded points based on mobs killed, you fail you get 0 points for the raid. Exceptions were on first attempts on mobs.


As for the question of why would you spend 5 hrs on a raid where you dont get points. You generally do not go into the raid assuming that your going to fail. The problem with awarding points when you do not get loot is that you then have to inflate the price of items, if you didn't people would gain points faster then points could be spent on items and you would have a major surplus of points in your system.

[Tacks]

You don't get points per boss. You get points per piece of loot. Each boss drops 2-3 loots plus random trash mobs have a small chance of dropping belts/bracers (usually 1 per run, most we got was 4 one run) The first boss takes 30 mins to clear to and kill. After that theres another boss every 30 mins or so.

[Captain Insano]

Once again are any of these systems for WoW written down in detail anywhere? Taxx's system sounds really good.


Taxx your system works with joint guild raids correct? or was thatTikker's system?


Also,

Groups... Lets say a guildy is leading a group through an instance.

My group policy is going to be as follows:

1. Need before greed and if there is a dispute it will be decided by the person leading the group.

2. If the same members get in a dispute a second or third time etc, the person who already received a piece of loot under dispute is not elligible to receive the piece that is currently being disputed upon.

3. This repeats until everyone has at least one piece of gear and then resets.

4. Gear that is not an upgrade for anyone is rolled upon.


What do you think of these rules? They sound a little complicated to me but I want to be fair about things.

[Arlos]

Our guild uses a modified version of officer-assigned. The officers are all in a loot channel, and for each raid they randomly pick 3 members and add them to the loot channel. They use attendence as a big factor to decide who gets what, along with who's gotten what recently. The addition of average members to the decision committee removes just about any potential for favoritism.

One of the things I don't like about most DKP system is they serve as big dis-incentives for people to get incremental upgrades, at least if they're smart. Example: The other night, a Lawbringer helm dropped for us. In a DKP system, I'd never have asked for it, since we kill Onyxia frequently, and the Judgement Crown is better, so why spend the points, despite the fact that the lawbringer's an upgrade? With this system, I now have and use the lawbringer, until such time as I get the Judgement crown.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

all dkp does is set a looting order

you can do it pretty much anyway you want and be reasonable successful

the only problem is the administration

you can make the admin easier by making the rules simple, but it's mostly just a matter of playing around



but to tell the honest truth, just stop inviting greedy fucks into your guild, and most problems will be solved

[Tacks]

How does it set a looting order. I know exactly what pieces I'm looking for everytime we go raiding. Raid leaders not letting hunters roll on rogue daggers takes care of the lootwhore problem. I'm so glad our officers don't assign loot, I don't want pieces of shit like brutality blade and some of the old NS shoulders. Our DKP is entirely up to YOU for what loot you get. Want that uber weapon? NP save your points and it'll be yours before you know it.

[Agrajag]

Unless you're a warlock wanting a dagger...

[Tacks]

There are caster daggers also. Why would a warlock ever in a million years want a DPS dagger? Agrajag, look up Perdition's Blade, Gutgore Ripper, Core Hound Tooth. Those are rogue daggers, should a warlock get any of those? Now go look up Sorcerous Dagger, Fang of the Mystics and Azuresong Mageblade. You think rogues should get any of those? Hell no. People who want shit like that are just greedy lootwhores.

[Tikker]

How does it set a looting order. I know exactly what pieces I'm looking for everytime we go raiding.

let's say we're both rogues


dagger of uber goodness drops

you have more dkp than me, you'll get the dagger

I'll get the next one


That's all I meant by DKP setting up the looting order

I guess I should have said, "When people are lusting after the same item, DKP just sets the looting order"

[Agrajag]

Sorry Taxx. In a previous post of yours, you weren't specific about which dagger the warlock got. My rogue is only 40 so I don't yet know about the higher level weapons. I thought that maybe the dagger in question could be viable for either class.

I do know that my 58 hunter uses daggers. The hunter and rogue agi/sta are important. I could see if a hunter may want a rogue dagger where it would be a toss up.

I was also kind of poking fun at the DKP system. If a warlock wants to save points for a dagger that would be better for a rogue, but okay for a warlock, why should only the rogues get to use points against it? What if the warlock is trying to balance out his stats? Just a couple of questions.

They are the person's points and should be able to be used for what ever that person wants to bid on. Correct or not?

[Tacks]

Agrajag, not to be an ass but that type of thinking is exact type we dread and glad we don't have to raid with=P All the people we raid with know which loot is BEST for which class and put the better of the raid before personal gain (99% of the time). Hunters can get the epic staff/bow so no need for them to think they're all the sudden a melee class. Just the same way we give hunters dibs on guns before rogues (even though they have helpful stats to both classes). It's just stupid to give someone something thats only a minimal upgrade to one class but huge to another.

[Agrajag]

I was only wondering because I have seen the arguement before. I would always bow out of a loot dispute if it would make the guild better as a whole. I was only bringing that point up because Ralph may have to deal with it in a new guild.

And I know that a hunter is no match for a rogue or warrior in melee combat, but I can hold my own until I am back out of range pwning those classes

[Tacks]

Let me know when is a good time to melee duel me:) See if you hold your own hehe