Silly doctors!

[Themosticles]

So instead, and I hate this term, your ilk, push your agenda on people who want nothing of it...its cyclicle and you know it. There are two sides to everything, you see yours, he sees his, stop pretending you're a victim.

[Narrock]

So instead, and I hate this term, your ilk, push your agenda on people who want nothing of it...its cyclicle and you know it. There are two sides to everything, you see yours, he sees his, stop pretending you're a victim.

[Zanchief]

Ha. Christians are the worst for whining about being victimized even though they are the majority and they hold all the power in the US.

[Themosticles]

Keep screaming that as loud as you can, eventually someone will believe you.

Go, go, go!

[Yamori]

Most everyone wants to be a victim. It makes them feel special.


Themosticles our avatars appear to be highly similar.

[Tikker]

I liked the article. To me, it shows a lot of atheist/agnostic knuckleheads that VERY intelligent people believe in God, and so it should make something stir in their heads, like "hmm, if scientists, doctors, and astrophysicists believe in God... why don't I?" I like articles that make people THINK.

So, and article that says:
85% of americans are religious
75% of american doctors are religious


is supposed to be profound and thought provoking?

To me it says that on average doctors are less religious than non-doctors

[Zanchief]

Keep screaming that as loud as you can, eventually someone will believe you.

Only a delusional moron wouldn't.

[Themosticles]

Louder!

[Zanchief]

Louder!

Man have turned into a moron Themo. At least most people have the balls to state an opinion. You just bitch about liberals not seeing the other side. We see it. It's wrong. If you want to play in the sand box sack the fuck up or get the fuck out.

[Narrock]

I liked the article. To me, it shows a lot of atheist/agnostic knuckleheads that VERY intelligent people believe in God, and so it should make something stir in their heads, like "hmm, if scientists, doctors, and astrophysicists believe in God... why don't I?" I like articles that make people THINK.

So, and article that says:
85% of americans are religious
75% of american doctors are religious


is supposed to be profound and thought provoking?

To me it says that on average doctors are less religious than non-doctors

Wow, is that the way they teach people to comprehend and process information in Canada?

[Themosticles]

You want my opinion about what exactly? I don't even see the point of this thread, as Tikker posted above. I simply pointed out an obvious flaw in the logic of one poster. You came back with some bullshit that basically amounts to, "Nuh-uh...you're wrong its this way!" Funny that you mention sand boxes in your latest attempt to be cool. Perhaps you should step out of the sand-box-kiddy-land and grow the fuck up.

"I see your point and its wrong?" Obviously you don't, otherwise you wouldn't even have needed to respond.

However, keep on screaming, but make sure you have plenty of liquids at hand, I wouldn't want you to lose your voice prematurely.

[Tikker]

I liked the article. To me, it shows a lot of atheist/agnostic knuckleheads that VERY intelligent people believe in God, and so it should make something stir in their heads, like "hmm, if scientists, doctors, and astrophysicists believe in God... why don't I?" I like articles that make people THINK.

So, and article that says:
85% of americans are religious
75% of american doctors are religious


is supposed to be profound and thought provoking?

To me it says that on average doctors are less religious than non-doctors

Wow, is that the way they teach people to comprehend and process information in Canada?

I know thinking is hard for you and all, but feel free to start one of these days

[Arlos]

Themo, no one is attempting to force you to live in a way opposite to how you believe. If gay marriage is made legal, who is forcing you to marry another guy? Since you wouldn't, how does it effect you personally if 2 guys or 2 women you don't even know get married? And you can't just say, "Because it's wrong!" because not all religions believe this, and remember that pesky Bill of Rights? It says that no one religion shall have primacy over any other, meaning that my religious beliefs are just as good as yours under the Constitution. Where do you see liberals pushing laws that would prevent you from following Christianity or living your life according to its teachings?

That's just the thing. The liberal side wants for EVERYONE to be able to live the life they choose, and to be able to follow their own path, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. Worship whoever you want, believe whatever you want, follow whatever set of mores you wish; ie, live your life as you wish. That's all we want in return. However, the far right wants to enact laws to FORCE everyone, regardless of faith, to live according to strict christian laws. How is that not attempting to oppress everyone of other faiths, and indeed, christians of different sects who happen to believe differently?

That's it in a nutshell. I don't believe as you do, but I completely support your right TO your beliefs and to live your life in accordance with them. If the radical religious right has its way, however, everyone in the country would be forced to live under laws specific to fundamentalist christian beliefs. Sorry, but to me that's oppression, if what I, or anyone else, believes and practices harms no one, except maybe themselves, it is NOT your place to attempt to tell us how to live our lives, no more than we are you.

-Arlos

[Themosticles]

Themo, no one is attempting to force you to live in a way opposite to how you believe. If gay marriage is made legal, who is forcing you to marry another guy? Since you wouldn't, how does it effect you personally if 2 guys or 2 women you don't even know get married? And you can't just say, "Because it's wrong!" because not all religions believe this, and remember that pesky Bill of Rights? It says that no one religion shall have primacy over any other, meaning that my religious beliefs are just as good as yours under the Constitution. Where do you see liberals pushing laws that would prevent you from following Christianity or living your life according to its teachings?

That's just the thing. The liberal side wants for EVERYONE to be able to live the life they choose, and to be able to follow their own path, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. Worship whoever you want, believe whatever you want, follow whatever set of mores you wish; ie, live your life as you wish. That's all we want in return. However, the far right wants to enact laws to FORCE everyone, regardless of faith, to live according to strict christian laws. How is that not attempting to oppress everyone of other faiths, and indeed, christians of different sects who happen to believe differently?

That's it in a nutshell. I don't believe as you do, but I completely support your right TO your beliefs and to live your life in accordance with them. If the radical religious right has its way, however, everyone in the country would be forced to live under laws specific to fundamentalist christian beliefs. Sorry, but to me that's oppression, if what I, or anyone else, believes and practices harms no one, except maybe themselves, it is NOT your place to attempt to tell us how to live our lives, no more than we are you.

-Arlos

You're appling labels to me that "I feel" don't apply. I'm not far-right wing, I'm not Christian, and I have not told you how to live your life, ever. I ask you questions here a lot b/c you post a lot.

Gay marriage? Don't care, doesn't affect me at all. Just like everyone elses canned responses, I have a gay friend, I could care less if he married his boyfriend, live-in, whatever you want to call it. It's his life.

I don't believe in God, yet I don't see why its offensive to see the words, Under God, written on our currency, on buildings, or in the pledge. I think it's silly to get offended at a Santa Clause in a mall, or to get upset at the Easter Bunny. These symbols are for the KIDS and I'm betting most kids see no religious implications with a fat ass in a red suite or a chocoalte bunny. Seriously, Santa brings you toys and shit and the bunny gives you candy, how can you beat that? I think its silly that I have to call Christmas by some other name so I don't offend anyone, but I do it anyway. I think it's sad that the "Holiday" parade in my town rejected a float because of its Christian symbolism, but nothing was said about the other religious floats.

I believe the mentality that right-wing christian fundamentalists are going to opress your life is going overboard. I've seen as many Christians at my door pressing their beliefs on me as I have atheists...0. I see as many laws, bills, etc I don't agree with both from the extreme left and the extreme right. Neither side is w/o flaw.

I think abortion is wrong but you won't see me picketing or bombing abortion clinics. However, I don't think I should have to pay taxes that will afford someone I don't know to get one. I believe that if you are under the age of 18 you should have to tell your parents.

I completely agree that YOU should be able to BELIEVE what you want and if you think I'm out to try and oppress your ability to do that...well, I disagree. I'll vote for the things, just like you do, that I believe. If what I believe doesn't win a majority I don't agree with the oppression label, and vice-versa.

[Jennay]

I don't know what to believe in so I just go day by day hoping that God won't kill off anymore of my family and friends trying to convince me he's around. I don't think story of how we came to be from Adam and Eve is all true. Part of me wants to, but common sense tells me that a lot of the stories in the bible are stories to keep people in line. There may as well be a talking unicorn thrown into the mix. Soooo I turn to Science, Darwinism, Evolution...etc while at the same time, in my heart I know there's something mysterious and right about God and the whole thing. If only I was more educated. My mom and dad didn't make me go to church when I was young, so really I cannot form opinions on something I don't know, so I go with scientific logic. Ignorance is bliss, but I do sorta feel like I missed out on something, because when you're little and naive, being brainwashed is easy and letting it become a daily routine in your life is even easier. I wonder if it's too late. P.S I don't smoke weed, but reading this to myself it sounds like it.

[Arlos]

The Under God thing on public buildings and currency is an issue because it denotes a governmental endorsement of a particular faith. Think the fundies wouldn't be up in arms if it said "Under Buddha"? It is especially egregious in the Pledge of Allegiance, as you have to acknowledge the christian diety and belief system in order to profess your ellegiance to your own country. This is compounded by the fact that the "Under God" phrase DID NOT EXIST in the original Pledge, it was added by an act of Congress in the late 50s. Again, one needs to make the distinction between statements of faith and belief by private persons and those by public entities. If you wanted to put a monument to the 10 Commandments up on property you owned, but in a spot where anyone could see it, that'd be perfectly acceptible and legal. For a governmental agency to do so, however, is wrong, as it violates the separation of church and state, as it is effectively a governmental endorsement of a religious faith, which is obviously unconstitutional.

That said, however, I do agree, going after Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny is pretty silly. The parade thing was bad too, if one religion is disallowed from having a float themed to their religion, so should all of them. Or, all should be equally allowed.

As for the "you" I used, treat it as a more generic you than to you specifically. Gay marriage, for example. I know, say, Mindia is rabidly against it. How, though, will it specifically harm HIM if 2 men or 2 women he doesn't know and who live on the opposite side of the country get married? What other reason is there to disallow such a union beyond religious faith-based tenets? So they don't produce kids, who cares? A guy marrying a sterile female or visa versa won't produce kids either, yet that's perfectly OK.

We will have to disagree on the fundamentalist right and their legal agenda. I do suggest you go look at some of the statements and published agendas from such people as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, however. Their intent is quite clear from their own words, and they and those like them have a LOT of influence in the radical right wing of the Republican party at this point.

As for abortion, I think it should definitely be legal, and socio-economic status should not stand in the way of being able to obtain it. Sorry, it can't be something only the well-off can afford, that's simply wrong. (And hey, if you want to look at it this way, every abortion by someone at that end of the scale is one less kid you'd have to pay welfare for, and long term, that's WAY more expensive.) As for parental notification, I can see both sides of the issue. However, think of this: What about a kid in a situation where the father has abusive tendencies? You don't think she might be in serious danger if she has to inform them that not only has she been having sex, but is now pregnant? Ultimately, if you want to cut back on the number of teens getting pregnant, you need to have real, serious sex education with an emphasis on how to get/use protection and pregnancy avoidance, along with access to birth control. Unfortunately, the same religious right won't allow that, and our current sex education consists mainly of "Sex is bad! Don't do it!" and nothing else.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

I don't believe in God, yet I don't see why its offensive to see the words, Under God, written on our currency, on buildings, or in the pledge. I think it's silly to get offended at a Santa Clause in a mall, or to get upset at the Easter Bunny. These symbols are for the KIDS and I'm betting most kids see no religious implications with a fat ass in a red suite or a chocoalte bunny. Seriously, Santa brings you toys and shit and the bunny gives you candy, how can you beat that? I think its silly that I have to call Christmas by some other name so I don't offend anyone, but I do it anyway. I think it's sad that the "Holiday" parade in my town rejected a float because of its Christian symbolism, but nothing was said about the other religious floats.

Faggot hippies LOVE to protest and whine, just give them a target.

[Arlos]

Faggot fundies LOVE to condemn and whine about those who don't believe like they do, just give them a target.

There, fixt.

PS. Themo are actually attempting to have an intelligent discussion on the issues, regardless of whether we agree or not. Stay the fuck out with your idiotic and completely uninformed 1-liners. We all know you can't think for yourself or express yourself worth a damn, so go do your Taxx imitations elsewhere.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Ahahaha oh gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. Editing a quote! You know, I've never seen anyone make that joke before. Mmm. You're the first. I've never seen anyone take a quote and change it! Because that's what I said right? Isn't it? And yet, you have taken that and used it out of context, to insult me in this everyday situation. God what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

[Narrock]

I liked the article. To me, it shows a lot of atheist/agnostic knuckleheads that VERY intelligent people believe in God, and so it should make something stir in their heads, like "hmm, if scientists, doctors, and astrophysicists believe in God... why don't I?" I like articles that make people THINK.

So, and article that says:
85% of americans are religious
75% of american doctors are religious


is supposed to be profound and thought provoking?

To me it says that on average doctors are less religious than non-doctors

Wow, is that the way they teach people to comprehend and process information in Canada?

I know thinking is hard for you and all, but feel free to start one of these days

Nice way to avoid the embarrassment of getting owned.

[Yamori]

Ahahaha oh gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. Editing a quote! You know, I've never seen anyone make that joke before. Mmm. You're the first. I've never seen anyone take a quote and change it! Because that's what I said right? Isn't it? And yet, you have taken that and used it out of context, to insult me in this everyday situation. God what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

A snappy retort.

SNAP SNAP SNAP

I wait anxiously for Arlos' flustered reply.

[Mop]

I don't know what to believe in so I just go day by day hoping that God won't kill off anymore of my family and friends trying to convince me he's around. I don't think story of how we came to be from Adam and Eve is all true. Part of me wants to, but common sense tells me that a lot of the stories in the bible are stories to keep people in line. There may as well be a talking unicorn thrown into the mix. Soooo I turn to Science, Darwinism, Evolution...etc while at the same time, in my heart I know there's something mysterious and right about God and the whole thing. If only I was more educated. My mom and dad didn't make me go to church when I was young, so really I cannot form opinions on something I don't know, so I go with scientific logic. Ignorance is bliss, but I do sorta feel like I missed out on something, because when you're little and naive, being brainwashed is easy and letting it become a daily routine in your life is even easier. I wonder if it's too late. P.S I don't smoke weed, but reading this to myself it sounds like it.

this hurt my head two lines into it.

[Tikker]

I liked the article. To me, it shows a lot of atheist/agnostic knuckleheads that VERY intelligent people believe in God, and so it should make something stir in their heads, like "hmm, if scientists, doctors, and astrophysicists believe in God... why don't I?" I like articles that make people THINK.

So, and article that says:
85% of americans are religious
75% of american doctors are religious


is supposed to be profound and thought provoking?

To me it says that on average doctors are less religious than non-doctors

Wow, is that the way they teach people to comprehend and process information in Canada?

I know thinking is hard for you and all, but feel free to start one of these days

Nice way to avoid the embarrassment of getting owned.

Feel free to explain the ownage

Or would you prefer that I explain how 85 > 75


ps ">" means "greater than"

[Themosticles]

The Under God thing on public buildings and currency is an issue because it denotes a governmental endorsement of a particular faith.

I do not see it as endorsing a particular faith b/c God is God, whatever that is or means. They don't specify denominations, or say who's God, just God. I understand God as the "explination"(don't take this too literal) for the unexplainable. I look at it more as saying, "We are united under cominalities bigger than ourselves." The interesting idea behind this topic, for me, is that its all in how you interpret the phrase.

Think the fundies wouldn't be up in arms if it said "Under Buddha"?

Yes, b/c unlike the previous example, this one actually specifies one diety over others.

It is especially egregious in the Pledge of Allegiance, as you have to acknowledge the christian diety and belief system in order to profess your ellegiance to your own country.

As above, its how you personally interpret the words. I don't see this as a Christian thing, b/c if a muslim or Jew were sitting next to me in class their idea of the phrase's meaning would be different but we are still united in by something bigger than ourselves.

This is compounded by the fact that the "Under God" phrase DID NOT EXIST in the original Pledge, it was added by an act of Congress in the late 50s. Again, one needs to make the distinction between statements of faith and belief by private persons and those by public entities. If you wanted to put a monument to the 10 Commandments up on property you owned, but in a spot where anyone could see it, that'd be perfectly acceptible and legal. For a governmental agency to do so, however, is wrong, as it violates the separation of church and state, as it is effectively a governmental endorsement of a religious faith, which is obviously unconstitutional.

I see your point here but I also don't want to see us tear down the walls that surround the supreme court b/c there is a pictoral featuring Moses, or because the etchings of the 10 commandments are on the chamber doors. Does it affect your life in a negative way when you see pictures of these things? Or is it more affected by the decisions they make behind those doors?

That said, however, I do agree, going after Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny is pretty silly. The parade thing was bad too, if one religion is disallowed from having a float themed to their religion, so should all of them. Or, all should be equally allowed.

But because they aren't, they meaing all religions, do you see a problem with the systematic bashing of ONLY the Christian faith? Does it not bother you that in what seems to me as a rush to eliminate faith from all public view, that the only target seems to be Christians? To me, at the moment, it seems like the word Christian has a very negative conotation in America. It seems almost PC to use the term negatively. If you were to replace Christian with Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever in these "attacks"(let's face it that's what they are), you can be sure the backlash against you would be monumental. (Let's not get into Islam or historical mistreatment of Jews, etc...let's try and stay in the here and now)

As for the "you" I used, treat it as a more generic you than to you specifically. Gay marriage, for example. I know, say, Mindia is rabidly against it. How, though, will it specifically harm HIM if 2 men or 2 women he doesn't know and who live on the opposite side of the country get married? What other reason is there to disallow such a union beyond religious faith-based tenets? So they don't produce kids, who cares? A guy marrying a sterile female or visa versa won't produce kids either, yet that's perfectly OK.

I can't explain to you what Mindia sees or believes. The way I see it, no compelling arguement has yet been made FOR gay marriage, outside of the obvious, b/c I want it. The multiple threads on this topic has brought that to the for-front. I liked reading Lyion's civil rights points and reading others' responses as well b/c they make me think. However, I do believe that in the not so distant future we will look back on this the same way you and I now think of women voting, or blacks voting, or slavery. However, until that compelling arguement is made I don't see the majority of people changing their minds.

We will have to disagree on the fundamentalist right and their legal agenda. I do suggest you go look at some of the statements and published agendas from such people as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, however. Their intent is quite clear from their own words, and they and those like them have a LOT of influence in the radical right wing of the Republican party at this point.

I've seen and heard Pat Robinson many times after spacing out while watching Who's Line. I've been lucky enough to have the remote near-by to flip the channel. That said, I think Nancy Pelosi, Barbra Boxer, and Ted Kennedy are equally DEPLORABLE.

As for abortion, I think it should definitely be legal, and socio-economic status should not stand in the way of being able to obtain it. Sorry, it can't be something only the well-off can afford, that's simply wrong. (And hey, if you want to look at it this way, every abortion by someone at that end of the scale is one less kid you'd have to pay welfare for, and long term, that's WAY more expensive.) As for parental notification, I can see both sides of the issue. However, think of this: What about a kid in a situation where the father has abusive tendencies? You don't think she might be in serious danger if she has to inform them that not only has she been having sex, but is now pregnant?

Ok, turning the tables. What about the ultra caring father who wants to be involved in his child's life. Instead of being in the dark about what often amounts to a life-changing decision, I believe a minor should have better guidence and the wisdom(I use that loosely) of their parents. Wouldn't you want to know if this was your daughter?

Ultimately, if you want to cut back on the number of teens getting pregnant, you need to have real, serious sex education with an emphasis on how to get/use protection and pregnancy avoidance, along with access to birth control. Unfortunately, the same religious right won't allow that, and our current sex education consists mainly of "Sex is bad! Don't do it!" and nothing else.

This I agree with. We are way too uptight about sex here in America and our presentation of sex education is terrible. It's so bad that sex becomes the "forbidden fruit." Kids are not properly informed about the choices they make and thus are ill-prepared to handle the consequences. If all you do is continually tell a kid that this is bad bad, evil, evil, stuff, you've basically guarenteed the kid is going to do it.

[Yamori]

So how is "under god" on the money and in the pledge fair to me, who believes in no god? It bothered me enough that I did not say the pledge when I was in school.

Under god is specific to certain types of religions - monotheistic ones. Of which there really aren't all that many - it basically boils down to the three religions that worship jehova, yahweh, allah, whatever you want to call it. Oh, and zorastrianism. :P

It's not even an ancient tradition, they just added this crap in the 50s to make us seem less like the "godless commies."

I see no reason why it should be kept. It was falsely put in to begin with.