Silly doctors!

[Harrison]

For the same reason Gay marriage is "alright"

"It isn't affecting anyone", whether or not it says God somewhere in a fucking piece of paper is irrelevent.

Take that argument and shove it right back up your asses where it came from. It can be used both ways.

[Themosticles]

I never said I believed in God either, yet neither the pledge or the fact that the word is placed on the $ bothers me. You seem like an intelligent person, Yamori, so endulge me and articulate why it bothers you "enough to not say it in school."

The Under God thing on public buildings and currency is an issue because it denotes a governmental endorsement of a particular faith.

I do not see it as endorsing a particular faith b/c God is God, whatever that is or means. They don't specify denominations, or say who's God, just God. I understand God as the "explination"(don't take this too literal) for the unexplainable. I look at it more as saying, "We are united under cominalities bigger than ourselves." The interesting idea behind this topic, for me, is that its all in how you interpret the phrase.

[Harrison]

He's a rebel!

[Arlos]

They don't specify denominations, or say who's God, just God.

When people hear "God", the usual immediate response is to consider it as to be referring to the judeo-christian notion of God. While Islam worships the same God, as far as I've seen, they rarely, if ever, refer to him as the G word, preferring instead to use the term Allah. Also, what about those of us who either don't believe in any diety whatsoever, or who believe in an alternative diety or dieties? Hinduism is a polytheistic religion that is a fairly major world faith, yes?

So, if all religions and belief systems are supposed to be equal, including those who reject the concept of a single diety, why should national institutions be continually proclaiming its existance and that the belief has the support of the government? Belief in God is, by definition, a religious belief. Religion is supposed to have no part in the government of this country, by the Bill of Rights. Why then should governmental institutions, such as money or buildings be at least tacitly supporting a faith?

I don't see this as a Christian thing, b/c if a muslim or Jew were sitting next to me in class their idea of the phrase's meaning would be different but we are still united in by something bigger than ourselves.

Ah, but what about the athiest or agnostic student sitting next to you? How about the Hindu, buddhist, Zoroastrian, wiccan, shintoist, Daoist, etc. student also sitting next to you? All of their beliefs are given equal weight under the constitution, why should they be forced to acknowledge a diety they do not believe in, or even specifically reject, in order to pledge their loyalty to their country?

Does it affect your life in a negative way when you see pictures of these things? Or is it more affected by the decisions they make behind those doors?

Obviously, the decisions the Supreme Court makes have a more direct impact on my life and the direction of the nation than the symbolism on their walls. However, I don't feel that the symbolism has any place there, as again, by the constitution, no one faith is supposed to have supremacy over any others. However, if only one faith, or one grouping of faiths, is given tacit support by putting it on the highest court in the land, that can do nothing but marginalize all other faiths. Now, if the walls included writings and symbolisms from all other faiths, each given equal billing and weight, that'd be different, but that's not the case.

Does it not bother you that in what seems to me as a rush to eliminate faith from all public view, that the only target seems to be Christians?

Ahhhh, but how many openly Buddhist lawmakers do you see attempting to pass a national ban on the eating of meat? How about Hindu ones trying to pass a consitutional amendment to slot everyone into their Caste system? Obviously, you don't. However, look at the rabid far right of the Republican party, and how in bed they are with the religious right, and the number of laws and social controls that are attempting to be enacted based on their beliefs. The reason that so much of the backlash appears to be christian specific, is that it's basically only the christians that are causing the problem. If we had Buddhist or Hindu lawmakers attempting what I mentioned, there'd be just as vehement a backlash against them.

Basically, as I've said, the Bill of Rights, in Jefferson's intent, creates a wall between Church and State. Thus, religion, regardless of WHICH religion, has no place in the lawmaking process. Obviously, no one is saying that lawmakers should all be athiests or any such silliness. Everyone is absolutely free to openly worship whatever faith they choose. What they cannot do, however, is attempt to force others to follow the tenets of that faith by creating laws based on the faith. That is an unconstitutional blending of church and state.

The way I see it, no compelling arguement has yet been made FOR gay marriage, outside of the obvious, b/c I want it.

If 2 people are deeply in love with each other, why should the state have any interest in blocking their marriage simply because they happen to be of the same sex? Why should those 2 people be barred from receiving the same legal protections and benefits that heterosexual couples get, simply because they are homosexual? There's a HUGE list of legal ramifications to marriage, from inheritance rules to tax code to such things as employer-provided health care being required to cover spouses, but not necessarily domestic partners. It is unfair for 2 people to be excluded from such rights and benefits simply because they happen to be of the same sex. Now, please understand I am discussing civil ceremonies here, performed by a judge. In no way would I condone attempting to force ANY faith to perform a marriage that goes against the tenets of that faith.

Nationwide polls in the late 50s/early 60s showed that > 90% were against mixed-race marriages. I see the current attitudes against gay marriage to be no different than the racist attitudes of back then. I also expect things to change, and 50 years from now people will wonder how it could ever have been an issue.

Ok, turning the tables. What about the ultra caring father who wants to be involved in his child's life. Instead of being in the dark about what often amounts to a life-changing decision, I believe a minor should have better guidence and the wisdom(I use that loosely) of their parents. Wouldn't you want to know if this was your daughter?

As I said, I can see both sides of the issue. Yes, I would want to know, though I'd hope that I'd educated my daughter well enough on birth control, protection, etc. that it'd never happen, or that my relationship with her would be good enough that she'd tell me voluntarily. However, I think a minor can get good guidance from other places (school counsellors, among others), and that the risks inherent in forced notification (1 teen's death from an abusive parent outweighs basically any number of upset concerned parents, I think) are too high for it to be the rule.

This I agree with. We are way too uptight about sex here in America and our presentation of sex education is terrible.

Well, glad we agree on SOMETHING. Yes, kids should get the message, "At under 18, you are too young to be having sex, you should not be doing it." However, since we KNOW that they ARE going to be doing it, in spite of anything they are told, they ALSO need to be provided with actual information on how things work, and how to be safe about it, so they can prevent the spread of disease and pregnancies.

Unfortunately, again, due to the influence of the religious right at the moment, we'll never see this.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

This is also ridiculous because 9 out of 10 students don't even know the fucking meaning behind the words of the pledge.

AT ALL

They say it everyday without EVER thinking about it.

The only people who think about it have an axe to grind.

[Zanchief]

Better Themo. At least now I respect you, even though I disagree with you.

[Yamori]

Why should I say I am pledging allegiance to a nation "under god," when I am in fact not under any god, and the country was founded to be expressly secular? My religious views are pretty strong, I see no reason why I should take part in insulting them by verbally expressing their opposite as if I agree. It also seems like an insult to the founding fathers' ideas - which I do have a lot of respect for.

I had other issues as well, pledging allegiance to a flag instead of to the country itself, and the fact that it was quasi-involuntarily enforced - deciding your allegiance to a country is an adult decision that may take careful consideration, not something to be disrespectfully forced down someone's throat, and disgraced by being said in a dull, murmured, unison chant by people who could give less of a damn about it.

Harrison: the key difference between allowing gay marriage and allowing "under god" on currency and the pledge, is that the latter violates one of the fundamental principles of the country - seperation of church and state. Small things like this could very well later be used as stepping stones for more religious intrusion in the future, which wouldn't be so harmless.

[Arlos]

This is also ridiculous because 9 out of 10 students don't even know the fucking meaning behind the words of the pledge.

AT ALL

They say it everyday without EVER thinking about it.

The only people who think about it have an axe to grind.

Just because YOU were a mindless sheep who never thought about it doesn't mean that everyone else is. I fail to see how laziness and inattention is a good reason to not change something that is clearly wrong. Also, what about parents of a non-christian faith who don't want their child being required to recite allegiance to the christian diety as part of the loyalty oath to the country? They're not having an axe to grind, they simply don't want their child indoctrinated into a faith different from their own.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

NOW IT'S RECITING ALLEGIANCE TO THE CHRISTIAN GOD?!

Holy fuck man, you are really out there.

[Agrajag]

I am an atheist. Don't believe one bit that there is a God. However, this country was founded on the principle of "one God."

I have no heartburn about having to had said it in school or seeing it on money because that is what this country is all about. If you don't like it either have some tolerance or

[Gidan]

There is a difference between tolerating the beliefs of others and forcing ideas on people.

Would people be so tolarant if they were being forced to pledge an oath under the idea that there is no god(s).

Forcing non religios people to be tolerant of some religios idea being forced upon them is wrong. I cant think of any laws that ban religious people from doing anything based on their religion that does not hurt others, while there are laws that <b>force</b> americans to pledge allegiance to the US under god.

[mofish]

Ahahaha oh gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. Editing a quote! You know, I've never seen anyone make that joke before. Mmm. You're the first. I've never seen anyone take a quote and change it! Because that's what I said right? Isn't it? And yet, you have taken that and used it out of context, to insult me in this everyday situation. God what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

A snappy retort.

SNAP SNAP SNAP

I wait anxiously for Arlos' flustered reply.

You don't really think that Finawin could come up with more than about 2 lines of text on his own do you. That's a Family Guy ripoff.

[Darcler]

Gidan, noone forces you to *say* it. Skip the line.

[Tikker]

I"m pretty sure if you're a landed immigrant they *do* force you to say it

[Darcler]

To pass a citizen exam. After that, dont.
In school, say it to pass some grade school test. After that, dont.

[Themosticles]

I had other issues as well, pledging allegiance to a flag instead of to the country itself, and the fact that it was quasi-involuntarily enforced - deciding your allegiance to a country is an adult decision that may take careful consideration, not something to be disrespectfully forced down someone's throat, and disgraced by being said in a dull, murmured, unison chant by people who could give less of a damn about it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS

In my opinion, you are NOT pledging allegiance to the flag, you are expressing your appreciation and allegiance to the COUNTRY that allows you to sit behind your computer and verbally express your displeasure of it. The COUNTRY you live in. The COUNTRY you will never leave. The COUNTRY that protects you. The COUNTRY that allows you to chase the dreams you want too, whatever they may be. The COUNTRY that encourages you to make the best of yourself or make nothing of yourself. The COUNTRY that doesn't throw your ass in jail for calling its leaders incompetent or stupid. The COUNTRY that ASKS for your help in guiding us into the future.

How you are offended by having to say thank you to the country above is beyond me. But then again you live in a country that doesn't make you say thank you for anything. Double bonus!


--edit-- Holy tangent Batman, back on topic..a survey was conducted that shows some doctors are religious and some aren't.

[Gidan]

There are mulitple states where saying the pledge is required by law in every school. The pledge contains the phrase "under God". It makes no difference whether you say it or not. Every child in every school in those states are required by law to recite the pledge.

The whole thing with imagration is the same. To becoem an american citized you must say the pledge (every word) includeing under god. If you refuse to say under god for religious reason, you can not be an American citizen. For some reason I thought we granted freedom in this country, turns out we grant freedom to those who believe in God.

Would it be considered purgery to say the plegde if you dont believe in god. You are lieing becasue you dont think it is a nation under god.

[Harrison]

Ahahaha oh gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. Editing a quote! You know, I've never seen anyone make that joke before. Mmm. You're the first. I've never seen anyone take a quote and change it! Because that's what I said right? Isn't it? And yet, you have taken that and used it out of context, to insult me in this everyday situation. God what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. Mmm, that's so fresh too. Any titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these at the height of their popularity? Hmm? Cause... I'm here. God you're SO funny.

A snappy retort.

SNAP SNAP SNAP

I wait anxiously for Arlos' flustered reply.

You don't really think that Finawin could come up with more than about 2 lines of text on his own do you. That's a Family Guy ripoff.

I called Matlock, he said shut the fuck up.

No shit it was from Family Guy...

[Harrison]

All this bullshitting about tolerance until it's something you don't agree with.

Then it's INTOLERANCE FOR EVERYONE

Come and get your intolerance, it's fresh straight from the mouths of bullshitters and hypocrites!

Whiny, loudmouthed-Arlos flavored or the common little-kid flavored Rebel-Yamori, you decide!

[Arlos]

Intolerance? Show me where I've been intolerant. Specifically. You won't find it.

Instead, you will find me repeatedly stating that EVERYONE has the right to believe whatever they want, and to live their lives by whatever belief systems they so choose. What they do NOT have the right to do is force their beliefs on other people. I don't tell people how to live their private lives, they don't have the right to tell me how to live mine. Period.

You live your life your way, and I won't try and force you to live it my way. All I ask for is the same courtesy in return.

-Arlos

[Yamori]

I'm not trying to be mean here Harrison, but you seriously are not clever or amusing. Just boring, when you try to flame. You're not cut out to play the "Taxx" card.

[Yamori]

In my opinion, you are NOT pledging allegiance to the flag, you are expressing your appreciation and allegiance to the COUNTRY that allows you to sit behind your computer and verbally express your displeasure of it. The COUNTRY you live in. The COUNTRY you will never leave. The COUNTRY that protects you. The COUNTRY that allows you to chase the dreams you want too, whatever they may be. The COUNTRY that encourages you to make the best of yourself or make nothing of yourself. The COUNTRY that doesn't throw your ass in jail for calling its leaders incompetent or stupid. The COUNTRY that ASKS for your help in guiding us into the future.

How you are offended by having to say thank you to the country above is beyond me. But then again you live in a country that doesn't make you say thank you for anything. Double bonus!

I actually never said anything about disliking America. I actually like the country a lot - despite its flaws.

But I like my country for rational reasons, reasons I have carefully thought about.

As I said before, my primary reason for not saying the pledge was the god issue. It's pretty insulting to be asked to verbally say the OPPOSITE of my religious beliefs is true.

What I do have a problem with is practically mandated reciting of patriotism in schools. It has glimmers of totalitarianism to be requiring people swear "loyalty to the state" - something which is DIRECT CONFLICT with our founding principles: mainly, the principle that the government exists to serve its people - not the other way around.

Appreciation for one's country shouldn't be expressed because you were told to do it, it should be a genuine thing.

[Lyion]

If it feels good and doesn't effect anyone else, do it, eh? If it makes me think of nasssssty moral things, hide it!

Arlos just wants pr0n available to all minors and no mention of the G word where anyone can see or hear it who might get offended, because it is such a nasty slight to hear a generic non denominational term.

San Francisco Politics at its finest.

Forgive me if I say bollocks to ACLUism. But keep up with the Judicial Activism and pretty soon the entire court system will be populated with conservatives who will allow people's faiths not to be buried, as long as it does not effect policy. We may even be able to keep our private property, something those nasty liberals seem bent on taking.

[Arlos]

Arlos just wants pr0n available to all minors

This is absolute, flat out, utter bullshit. It'd be the same thing as me claiming that because you're catholic, you go around raping little boys. So how is that, Lyion? You get off when they sniffle real loud?

Don't make shit up completely out of left field that has no bearing on any discussion we're having. You're famous for it, and I'm fucking sick of it. I called you on it when you were going at Darcler, and I'm fucking calling you on it now. STOP IT.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Watch it Arlos, calling his bullshit is a one way ticket to getting banned.